Above Median BC to Texas

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fratstar1
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Above Median BC to Texas

Postby fratstar1 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:43 pm

Slightly above median at BC have family and significant other thinking about moving to to the Austin Area. I'm contemplating a transfer to Texas in which I would be able to able to pay 2L year but 3L would have to be completely loan financed. I have flexible aspirations mostly centered around criminal law but open to really anything (I like finance, and have a finance background). I would optimistically be about 50k in the hole coming out of Texas.

1) Would my gpa let me transfer? Texas has an early action program that lets them accept you somewhat conditionally but if anyone has any input on it that would be clutch.

2) Like I said before I'm following family and significant other but I don't know how insular the market is and I'm not a texas native - ties being v loose to the area. With that in mind would i be completely shut out?
Last edited by fratstar1 on Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BVest
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby BVest » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:24 pm

0) Median at BC is going to get you shut out in Austin, even if you transfer to UT and hit median there. You say you were thinking of Austin. Just Austin or other Texas cities. Most UT grads leave Austin to work, and it's not because they don't want to stay.

1) Just above median at BC is not going to get you their provisional early action. Median at BC can get you a RD transfer, but it's not a lock.

2) Your ties are probably good enough for Houston/Dallas, and might even be good enough for Austin if your grades were significantly better, but they're not.

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fratstar1
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby fratstar1 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:26 pm

Gotcha, I understand I'm probably not headed on the Biglaw track here in Boston or in Texas. I'm shooting for criminal work as a PD or ADA which i don't think are as grade contingent. (maybe I'm completely off base)

Thanks for the response though, do you go to texas?

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby Ron Don Volante » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:37 pm

BVest transferred to Texas. He's probably the most important person on TLS for you to listen to about this.

If you do this, you're probably not going to get a sniff from most firms, and it'd be tough to stay in Austin. However, this gets a little overblown on TLS (and IRL): about 25% of the class stays in Austin (and is employed) after graduation. Many of these aren't the most desirable jobs for young grads, I'm sure, but still, it's a realistic landing spot with that kind of debt load. Also the class of 2017 appears to be graduating at good time; with median-ish grades, you're pretty surely going to get a job. The market is generally known to be pretty insular, too, but if you're bringing an SO along, I think you can overcome some of the "outsider" stigma.

But for criminal law, from what I hear, PDing is enormously competitive in Texas, and there is no office in Austin, so you'd have a hard time making connections during the school year. ADAing is also tough to nab in the desirable districts.

But for that debt load, I don't think you'd be in a bad spot. Really depends on where you want to live long-term.

BigZuck
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby BigZuck » Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:07 pm

Transferring and PI job seeking is largely beyond me. I disagree somewhat with my other two UT law bros when it comes to how easy it is for a yankee from the coasts to pass the ties test. I think Texas is more insular than people tend to give it credit for, but maybe I've misinterpreted things based on my own experiences so far (and maybe even if I'm right that won't matter as much for PI job seeking).

50k debt isn't the end of the world and UT is a good school but I think you might have a harder time finding employment than Bvest and Don think you will.

I agree that Bvest is probably the best person to listen to here so take what I said with the appropriate heaping of salt.

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fratstar1
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby fratstar1 » Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:51 pm

I appreciate the insight from everybody, luckily I don't have to make a decision yet. I've been playing around with the idea in my head and wouldn't mind living in Texas long term. I have to do some research on how successful transfer students are especially from my area, maybe sending an admin an email might be helpful.

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Ron Don Volante
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby Ron Don Volante » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:00 am

The tough thing is that UT completely changed their transfer deal like two years ago. In 2012 they netted 6 transfers. In 2013, they netted 58. It's a huge money maker for them now, and they're going to have a lot of incentive to give a rosy idea of the employment stats, when in fact they will have absolutely no hard data to give you on transfer student employment outcomes. They can feed you some OCI stats, probably, but that's not going to give the full picture or be really relevant to someone w/ your profile (no offense).

I mean, you should definitely talk to them, but finding actual transfer students (like BVest) is going to be a far superior source of information.

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Magnifique1908
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby Magnifique1908 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:12 am

I'll add to the ties discussion as someone from the north staying in Austin. As BVest said, you need to bring your grades up significantly to even get a shot at Austin. After that, your SO/family moving here will be sufficient.

I'm from Ohio, resume screams OH and NY. Though I'm a minority, my grades are in the top 15% or so of my class. That got me interviews, but I was asked why Austin in every single one. That's when I brought up that my SO and little one moved here with me and that I had no desire to move them to Dallas/Houston or leave them over the summer. That satisfied most people. My summer classes were filled with people with amazing grades who were either from originally from Austin, double Longhorns (UT undergrad and Law School), or had an SO/spouse who moved here with them and planned to stay.

Good luck!

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BVest
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby BVest » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:51 am

PI in Austin is also very competitive. The largest PI employer (assuming you're not including the state) prefers to hire their entry levels to fill spots in smaller outposts around their service area. There are folks who start in Austin, but they're either special snowflakes or post-grad fellows with an outside grant or UT fellowship who are hoping like hell to get hired on once their fellowship ends. And, of course, grades aren't as important to PI groups as they are to firms, but they have their own high bars -- demonstrated commitment to PI is absolutely required, and professional fluency in Spanish will almost always beat out a candidate who otherwise might look stronger on paper.

The state tends to hire their former interns, but state positions don't open up all that often. I mean, who wants to give up a decent salary and benefits and 40-hour (if that) work weeks. When they do open, though it's publicly posted because it has to be, it seems that the agency already has one person in mind for the job.

I don't know anything about the crim defense world, but as RDV said, ADA seems to be fairly competitive in the cities and Austin is entirely without a PD office, relying instead on case assignments to private practice attorneys.

I don't want to say you couldn't succeed at finding something in Austin, but I think it would be a pretty big risk. I don't know what your alternatives are or your prospects if you don't transfer, so maybe making the jump would be worth the risk.

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mandimeoutof10
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby mandimeoutof10 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:56 am

Ron Don Volante wrote:The tough thing is that UT completely changed their transfer deal like two years ago. In 2012 they netted 6 transfers. In 2013, they netted 58. It's a huge money maker for them now, and they're going to have a lot of incentive to give a rosy idea of the employment stats, when in fact they will have absolutely no hard data to give you on transfer student employment outcomes. They can feed you some OCI stats, probably, but that's not going to give the full picture or be really relevant to someone w/ your profile (no offense).

I mean, you should definitely talk to them, but finding actual transfer students (like BVest) is going to be a far superior source of information.


UT transfer here (most recent class). I just want to echo this. This past year the class shrunk from the massive class the year before but UT is still experimenting with Georgetowning/WUSTLing to keep their rankings up. I did land a biglaw SA but from the transfers I know, it seems like I am the outlier. IMO your career prospects improve only slightly by making the move, though there are other valid reasons for making the move. Best of luck.

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BVest
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby BVest » Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:13 pm

mandimeoutof10 wrote:UT transfer here (most recent class). I just want to echo this. This past year the class shrunk from the massive class the year before but UT is still experimenting with Georgetowning/WUSTLing to keep their rankings up. I did land a biglaw SA but from the transfers I know, it seems like I am the outlier. IMO your career prospects improve only slightly by making the move, though there are other valid reasons for making the move. Best of luck.


I'm curious to see what they do with the next transfer class. My hypothesis (based solely on the recent pattern with an admittedly small sample size) is that they're targeting a graduating class of 360 JDs a year, allowing for some small (~10) attrition for transfers out, dropouts, etc. Here's the recent pattern:

Code: Select all

Class   1Ls   Xfer In   Total matriculants to the class
2014    370     9       379
2015    308    59       367
2016    319    43       362
2017    301    ??       ???


My guess for this year's transfer class is they'll take 60-70 (or perhaps decide that their goal of a graduating class of 360 is not sustainable every year.)

ETA: I consider mine to be a market-based demand-driven hypothesis -- where the market is that of newly-minted JDs that the school produces and employers consume, and that UT has decided that this 360 number is what they can produce without diminishing quality without giving up too much market share.

The alternate prevailing theory -- which is probably more correct because it comes from someone with real admissions/budgeting experience -- is Spivey's theory that the transfer class is entirely about the bottom line. I'm probably abusing it in some way and definitely oversimplifying, but it's basically that going into the summer, the school has a very good idea of their costs and their expected revenue from both continuing students and matriculating 1Ls/LLMs (as well as outside revenue). From there, they can simply take as many transfers as they need to plug their budget gap.

Either way, this year the large transfer class of 2015 (most of whom are presumably paying sticker) is graduating this year, and will therefore not be continuing students, so that implies that, unless they cut lots of costs elsewhere or managed to matriculate a more valuable (monetarily) 1L/LLM class, they'll need to bump transfers again to make up for that loss.

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mandimeoutof10
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby mandimeoutof10 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:12 pm

BVest wrote:
mandimeoutof10 wrote:UT transfer here (most recent class). I just want to echo this. This past year the class shrunk from the massive class the year before but UT is still experimenting with Georgetowning/WUSTLing to keep their rankings up. I did land a biglaw SA but from the transfers I know, it seems like I am the outlier. IMO your career prospects improve only slightly by making the move, though there are other valid reasons for making the move. Best of luck.


I'm curious to see what they do with the next transfer class. My hypothesis (based solely on the recent pattern with an admittedly small sample size) is that they're targeting a graduating class of 360 JDs a year, allowing for some small (~10) attrition for transfers out, dropouts, etc. Here's the recent pattern:

Code: Select all

Class   1Ls   Xfer In   Total matriculants to the class
2014    370     9       379
2015    308    59       367
2016    319    43       362
2017    301    ??       ???


My guess for this year's transfer class is they'll take 60-70 (or perhaps decide that their goal of a graduating class of 360 is not sustainable every year.)

ETA: I consider mine to be a market-based demand-driven hypothesis -- where the market is that of newly-minted JDs that the school produces and employers consume, and that UT has decided that this 360 number is what they can produce without diminishing quality without giving up too much market share.

The alternate prevailing theory -- which is probably more correct because it comes from someone with real admissions/budgeting experience -- is Spivey's theory that the transfer class is entirely about the bottom line. I'm probably abusing it in some way and definitely oversimplifying, but it's basically that going into the summer, the school has a very good idea of their costs and their expected revenue from both continuing students and matriculating 1Ls/LLMs (as well as outside revenue). From there, they can simply take as many transfers as they need to plug their budget gap.

Either way, this year the large transfer class of 2015 (most of whom are presumably paying sticker) is graduating this year, and will therefore not be continuing students, so that implies that, unless they cut lots of costs elsewhere or managed to matriculate a more valuable (monetarily) 1L/LLM class, they'll need to bump transfers again to make up for that loss.


IMO you are not factoring in the MAIN reason for the large transfer class: rank. UT Law's endowment is gigantic. Their concern is rank.. A few years ago USNews had them tied w/ Gtown at 14 and right now UT has a lock on that 15th spot (with UCLA and Vandy fighting over 16 and 17). IMO, the large transfer classes have much less to do with money and much more to do with maintaining their rank (and possibly overtaking Gtown at some point). W/ less and less kids w/ appropriate LSAT scores each year, they can't keep lowering their medians without slipping in the ranks. That's my take on UT's decision to "Georgetown" their admissions numbers.

tx44
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby tx44 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:33 pm

BVest wrote:
mandimeoutof10 wrote:UT transfer here (most recent class). I just want to echo this. This past year the class shrunk from the massive class the year before but UT is still experimenting with Georgetowning/WUSTLing to keep their rankings up. I did land a biglaw SA but from the transfers I know, it seems like I am the outlier. IMO your career prospects improve only slightly by making the move, though there are other valid reasons for making the move. Best of luck.


I'm curious to see what they do with the next transfer class. My hypothesis (based solely on the recent pattern with an admittedly small sample size) is that they're targeting a graduating class of 360 JDs a year, allowing for some small (~10) attrition for transfers out, dropouts, etc. Here's the recent pattern:

Code: Select all

Class   1Ls   Xfer In   Total matriculants to the class
2014    370     9       379
2015    308    59       367
2016    319    43       362
2017    301    ??       ???


My guess for this year's transfer class is they'll take 60-70 (or perhaps decide that their goal of a graduating class of 360 is not sustainable every year.)

ETA: I consider mine to be a market-based demand-driven hypothesis -- where the market is that of newly-minted JDs that the school produces and employers consume, and that UT has decided that this 360 number is what they can produce without diminishing quality without giving up too much market share.

The alternate prevailing theory -- which is probably more correct because it comes from someone with real admissions/budgeting experience -- is Spivey's theory that the transfer class is entirely about the bottom line. I'm probably abusing it in some way and definitely oversimplifying, but it's basically that going into the summer, the school has a very good idea of their costs and their expected revenue from both continuing students and matriculating 1Ls/LLMs (as well as outside revenue). From there, they can simply take as many transfers as they need to plug their budget gap.

Either way, this year the large transfer class of 2015 (most of whom are presumably paying sticker) is graduating this year, and will therefore not be continuing students, so that implies that, unless they cut lots of costs elsewhere or managed to matriculate a more valuable (monetarily) 1L/LLM class, they'll need to bump transfers again to make up for that loss.


I believe that all transfers pay sticker at UT. I'm contemplating a transfer from another Texas law school and the impression I got was that there is no such thing as transfer scholarships at UT

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BVest
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby BVest » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:50 pm

tx44 wrote:
BVest wrote:Either way, this year the large transfer class of 2015 (most of whom are presumably paying sticker) is graduating this year . . . .


I believe that all transfers pay sticker at UT. I'm contemplating a transfer from another Texas law school and the impression I got was that there is no such thing as transfer scholarships at UT


I assume this is what you're referring to. I am unaware of any money offered to transfers to attract them to UT. That said, UT does allow all continuing students to apply for scholarships each summer, and I know of some transfers who have gotten them for their 3L year. These (that I know of) are nothing spectacular; basically between $2,000 and 5,000.

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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby mandimeoutof10 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:39 am

BVest wrote:
tx44 wrote:
BVest wrote:Either way, this year the large transfer class of 2015 (most of whom are presumably paying sticker) is graduating this year . . . .


I believe that all transfers pay sticker at UT. I'm contemplating a transfer from another Texas law school and the impression I got was that there is no such thing as transfer scholarships at UT


I assume this is what you're referring to. I am unaware of any money offered to transfers to attract them to UT. That said, UT does allow all continuing students to apply for scholarships each summer, and I know of some transfers who have gotten them for their 3L year. These (that I know of) are nothing spectacular; basically between $2,000 and 5,000.



FAAAK, I hope you're right. I could def use some extra $$$. And by extra $$$ I mean a smaller figure in red.

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BVest
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby BVest » Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:57 am

mandimeoutof10 wrote:
BVest wrote:I assume this is what you're referring to. I am unaware of any money offered to transfers to attract them to UT. That said, UT does allow all continuing students to apply for scholarships each summer, and I know of some transfers who have gotten them for their 3L year. These (that I know of) are nothing spectacular; basically between $2,000 and 5,000.



FAAAK, I hope you're right. I could def use some extra $$$. And by extra $$$ I mean a smaller figure in red.


Apparently the app goes online tomorrow. "Early Deadline" last year was 6/1, which gives priority consideration, whatever that means.

Here's the email from last March, which was remarkably short on details.

Law Mail group: Financial Aid
Vest IV, Benedict Cummerbund

*** This message is for information only and requires no response.
*** Replies by email will not be answered.

Now that you are back from Spring Break, the Student Financial Aid Office wanted to send a reminder that the 2014-2015 Law School Scholarship Application is now available. All continuing students who wish to be evaluated for scholarships for the next academic year should fill out the application which is accessible here.

To receive priority consideration for scholarships, please complete your application by the early deadline, 6/1/2014. You will be able to make changes to your application until the early deadline, but after that time you will only be able to view your application. If you do not submit your application by the early deadline, you will have one chance to submit it before the final deadline of 8/30/2014, but you will not be able to make any changes to your application after 8/30/2014.

If you have any questions about this process, please contact Mario Villa or Shirley Cannon in the Student Financial Aid Office (TNH 2.125).


BTW, don't expect to hear anything (and I mean ANYTHING) about decisions until well into the Fall semester.

ETA: I did not know that this continuing student scholarship application existed the year I transferred, and have no idea if incoming transfers can apply for them.

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mandimeoutof10
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Re: Above Median BC to Texas

Postby mandimeoutof10 » Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:43 pm

BVest wrote:
mandimeoutof10 wrote:
BVest wrote:I assume this is what you're referring to. I am unaware of any money offered to transfers to attract them to UT. That said, UT does allow all continuing students to apply for scholarships each summer, and I know of some transfers who have gotten them for their 3L year. These (that I know of) are nothing spectacular; basically between $2,000 and 5,000.



FAAAK, I hope you're right. I could def use some extra $$$. And by extra $$$ I mean a smaller figure in red.


Apparently the app goes online tomorrow. "Early Deadline" last year was 6/1, which gives priority consideration, whatever that means.

Here's the email from last March, which was remarkably short on details.

Law Mail group: Financial Aid
Vest IV, Benedict Cummerbund

*** This message is for information only and requires no response.
*** Replies by email will not be answered.

Now that you are back from Spring Break, the Student Financial Aid Office wanted to send a reminder that the 2014-2015 Law School Scholarship Application is now available. All continuing students who wish to be evaluated for scholarships for the next academic year should fill out the application which is accessible here.

To receive priority consideration for scholarships, please complete your application by the early deadline, 6/1/2014. You will be able to make changes to your application until the early deadline, but after that time you will only be able to view your application. If you do not submit your application by the early deadline, you will have one chance to submit it before the final deadline of 8/30/2014, but you will not be able to make any changes to your application after 8/30/2014.

If you have any questions about this process, please contact Mario Villa or Shirley Cannon in the Student Financial Aid Office (TNH 2.125).


BTW, don't expect to hear anything (and I mean ANYTHING) about decisions until well into the Fall semester.

ETA: I did not know that this continuing student scholarship application existed the year I transferred, and have no idea if incoming transfers can apply for them.


Awesome man, thank's for the info!




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