T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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failkaito
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T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby failkaito » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:11 pm

Mostly a lurker and coming out of the woodwork to ask opinions since there really aren't many people I can talk to right now about what to do. If I formatted topic wrong or asking questions I shouldn't, I apologize ahead of time. Let me know if I am missing anything to provide more information to consider.

Currently:
Midwest T1
Full ride - no stipulations
GPA - 4.0/4.0 - rank 1 (or at least tied for rank 1)
Possibly CALI in legal writing - haven't gotten official confirmation so I am hesitant to say for sure, if not then "high honors"
I have some softs from the semester. Board positions for 2 student groups as well as a small diversity soft.

Career goals:
BigLaw IP - primarily litigation or transaction (if the practice is available), prosecution does not sound appealing at all
Ability to do patents - engineering background, but not EE/CS/Biochem/Pharma
Would like to clerk for at least 1 year after JD --> looking to do a judicial externship 1L summer
Not tied to any geographic region - Chicago is nearby but would consider NY or CA (undergrad)
Ultimately, I would like to have the option of possibly teaching or becoming a judge (much further down the road)

Considering:
HYS - Pipedream, correct?
CCN - more realistic?
-I really like Chicago cause of their class size and would do ED if the odds are in my favor. However, I feel their IP offering is weaker than my current school's. No journal, clinic, less classes. Would you recommend it regardless?
-CLS + NYU - stronger in the IP realm but NY is so much more costly and 400-500 class size seems a little daunting
T14 - would only really consider Berkeley, Cornell, Northwestern

I am prepared to take on the 2 year debt. Would others recommend transferring in my position based on my potential career goals? If so, how likely would you consider my odds at any of the schools mentioned?

Any recommendations/advice at this point would be well received. Thanks in advance!

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Nebby
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:34 pm

First of all, congrats on your grades. You're in the same position as I after first semester 1L.

If you can maintain a GPA of 3.9+, then you have a good shot at HLS.
With a 3.9+ you have a great shot at CCN.
I finished with 3.9+ at a T2 and was admitted to NYU/CLS, therefore I can almost guarantee that you'll also be admitted into CCN.
If you want BigLaw, then xfer.

thechinaman12
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby thechinaman12 » Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:40 pm

Congrats on the grades.

First, I don't think that HYS are necessarily beyond reach. In fact, if you remain #1, I think your chances are relatively well-suited. So, I would apply to HYS.

Second, just as you enjoy Chi, I would have dreamed of attending that school as well. I actually would choose Chi over Colum or NYU, but thats a personal choice.

However, I don't know a single thing about IP, nor do I know what school you attend or its IP ranking.

The biggest obstacle you will hear from others is the money aspect. I find it perfectly rational to value things beyond money (e.g., experience), so I would urge you to seek the "best" education you can find (which is inherently a subjective decision). But, when people crunch numbers in front of you, their reasoning is quite persuasive as well.

I would recommend you type out all the expenses you currently pay, then type out all the expenses you would pay at the new school(s). Afterwards, type out some of the intangible benefits of both schools and what you are looking to obtain from them. I believe while in the midst of doing all this "rational" bullshit, you will intuitively find what it is you want and you will know how to get there.

Goodluck friend

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Calvin Murphy
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby Calvin Murphy » Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:24 pm

I guess it depends on your 1L school...but say you're at ND or UIUC...if your grades stay where they are, you shouldn't have any problem at all landing biglaw IP Lit in Chicago. Transferring won't give you an employment boost in the market that your school does well in. What the new school likely gives you is more interviewing options (employers from all over, as opposed to just Chicago).

On the other hand, I could see clerkship options improving at a highly-ranked school...but do keep in mind that your recommenders will have to come from your old school or professors who've had you for one semester and haven't given you grades yet (and maybe your summer employer can write one).

failkaito
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby failkaito » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:07 pm

CounselorNebby wrote:First of all, congrats on your grades. You're in the same position as I after first semester 1L.

If you can maintain a GPA of 3.9+, then you have a good shot at HLS.
With a 3.9+ you have a great shot at CCN.
I finished with 3.9+ at a T2 and was admitted to NYU/CLS, therefore I can almost guarantee that you'll also be admitted into CCN.
If you want BigLaw, then xfer.


Wow. That's a bit of a shock. I am going to have to reconsider what I thought would have feasible in terms of transferring. Back to the drawing boards.

thechinaman12 wrote:The biggest obstacle you will hear from others is the money aspect. I find it perfectly rational to value things beyond money (e.g., experience), so I would urge you to seek the "best" education you can find (which is inherently a subjective decision). But, when people crunch numbers in front of you, their reasoning is quite persuasive as well.


Yeah, the money aspect can be quite a convincing argument. However, as others have stated in these forums, money is something that can be dealt with outside of the classroom. I would definitely put more emphasis on the "best"/"better" education aspect and deal with the debt.

Calvin Murphy wrote:I guess it depends on your 1L school...but say you're at ND or UIUC...if your grades stay where they are, you shouldn't have any problem at all landing biglaw IP Lit in Chicago. Transferring won't give you an employment boost in the market that your school does well in. What the new school likely gives you is more interviewing options (employers from all over, as opposed to just Chicago).

On the other hand, I could see clerkship options improving at a highly-ranked school...but do keep in mind that your recommenders will have to come from your old school or professors who've had you for one semester and haven't given you grades yet (and maybe your summer employer can write one).


You are right on the money in terms of the school. One of the OCS counselors that I have grown close with related a similar sentiment to me. Stated that if I wanted to go Chicago BigLaw, that I could have my choice among the firms as long as I kept up my grades.

But you do voice a concern that I am worried about with clerkships. The school has tried setting up information sessions to try to push more interest in clerking, but I am unsure of how successful their efforts have been. We are sort of plagued with having to compete against the other schools who are actually in Chicago and have much better access not only to firms but alumni as well. I have good relationships with my professors thus far, but I haven't yet broached the topic of transferring yet. At least one of my professors is a very strong proponent of clerking, so hopefully he would be willing to stay on as a recommendation even if I did transfer. Something that I will be asking this coming semester.

--

Thanks to all those who replied. It has definitely shed some light in terms of varying opinions and things to consider.

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Nebby
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby Nebby » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:26 pm

The 2014 ABA 509s now have transfer data on pages 2 and 3. I compiled the info of the T14 schools that accepted more than 5 students here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=241498

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DoveBodyWash
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby DoveBodyWash » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:38 pm

i'm assuming you have a IP-qualifying undergrad/masters degree. If that's the case then i don't think you'll need to transfer at all to get an IP gig if your grades are that high..or even dip a little. But I'm still operating under the assumption of IP SECURE so i could be wrong if the IP hiring market has slowed down i guess.

objctnyrhnr
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby objctnyrhnr » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:11 pm

I am a d. court clerk in a non flyover market who was heavily involved in the clerk hiring process.

let's say you are literally or tied for #1 when you apply. that would go a much longer way in getting selected to interview in my chambers than being say top 1/3 or something at a t6...though the latter would obviously hold considerable weight as well.

point being that there's really something special about being #1, at least in terms of clerkship hiring in my chambers. when you add in the full ride aspect, it seems like a no brainer that you should stay where you are. even #2 or 3 at a t1 is still a stand-out kind of stat IMO

failkaito
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby failkaito » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:53 pm

Thanks again to all those who have commented. Lots of things to consider.

One last thing: Any idea how CALI awards are viewed in the transfer process? Is it just a reinforcement of your rank/GPA? I am guessing that having more CALI awards can't hurt the process, but they are not necessarily indicative of much more.

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Calvin Murphy
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby Calvin Murphy » Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:37 pm

failkaito wrote:Thanks again to all those who have commented. Lots of things to consider.

One last thing: Any idea how CALI awards are viewed in the transfer process? Is it just a reinforcement of your rank/GPA? I am guessing that having more CALI awards can't hurt the process, but they are not necessarily indicative of much more.


My guess would be the same as yours...and really anything we could tell you on that point wouldn't be any more informative than your best guess. People who transferred without any CALI awards know how their cycle went...people with one award know how their cycle went...but it's an issue that is far enough at the edges of statistical significance that no one (to my knowledge) has compared cycles considering whether any particular applicant has/doesn't have CALI awards. Sample size problem.

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MagicMike80
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby MagicMike80 » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:21 pm

I had no CALIs.

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Nebby
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby Nebby » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:25 pm

MagicMike80 wrote:I had no CALIs.

To echo Mike, CALIs are not really that useful if you're already top-5%. They're obviously great for a resume and clerkship hiring, but for xferring it seems to be purely school rank/class rank.

HLS competitive xfer stats:
T20: Top 10%
T1: Top 5%
T2: Top 1-2%

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fats provolone
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby fats provolone » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:28 pm

i don't think the cali awards matter. if you keep your gpa up you will be in at H np i think.

i wouldn't go, though. the education isn't really going to be "better". actually the patent offerings at H are pretty weak. if you want IP biglaw you should have no problem w/ your grades (if they stay high 2nd semester). you can do loyola IP fair and get two OCIs basically. what is your undergrad major?

failkaito
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby failkaito » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:43 am

Again, thanks for all the responses. Your collective knowledge and response times are a godsend.

fats provolone wrote:i don't think the cali awards matter. if you keep your gpa up you will be in at H np i think.

i wouldn't go, though. the education isn't really going to be "better". actually the patent offerings at H are pretty weak. if you want IP biglaw you should have no problem w/ your grades (if they stay high 2nd semester). you can do loyola IP fair and get two OCIs basically. what is your undergrad major?


My undergrad was in civil engineering & architecture, but I ended up working in the design field so I'm not very "technically appealing." I'd be interested in design patent work, if and when it would be available, but I know that for now it would be very few and far between. I am also intrigued by trademark and/or copyrights due to my work background. I would likely advertise myself as patent interested but focusing on those firms who also have a decent sized trademark/copyright/advertising practices to potentially switch gears if I become so inclined.

Definitely planning on doing Loyola IP job fair. Do you have any idea how that works if I were to transfer? Registration would be done while I am still at my current school. However, by the time the fair actually occurs, I would most likely have news of the potential transfer opportunities. Could I still utilize my 1L grades/rank from my current school since I technically would not have any information tied to the new school? Any insight regarding how this works would be much appreciated.

Transferring would be mostly to keep other career options in mind (such as teaching, clerking). I wouldn't be particularly adverse to going to a school with a weaker IP program. After visiting firms this past week, so much of the emphasis was on how great their training is in conjunction with how much of the job you end up learning while on the job. I am less worried about the IP offerings now after hearing that.

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fats provolone
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby fats provolone » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:53 am

debt puts a bigger damper on your options than you think. my range of possible next jobs is really limited and I'd have the same current job if I hadn't transferred.

you sign up for Loyola now and bid and submit your resume before you hear about transfers. you can bring an updated resume to your interviews.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:48 pm

failkaito wrote:Yeah, the money aspect can be quite a convincing argument. However, as others have stated in these forums, money is something that can be dealt with outside of the classroom. I would definitely put more emphasis on the "best"/"better" education aspect and deal with the debt.

What changed between now and when you made the decision to take the full ride?

failkaito
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Re: T1 Full Ride --> What should I consider?

Postby failkaito » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:17 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
failkaito wrote:Yeah, the money aspect can be quite a convincing argument. However, as others have stated in these forums, money is something that can be dealt with outside of the classroom. I would definitely put more emphasis on the "best"/"better" education aspect and deal with the debt.

What changed between now and when you made the decision to take the full ride?


In all honesty, how well I was able to do on my exams. Given my age and career background, making the switch to law was a "riskier" one. I've had more than a few people raise their eyebrow at me when I tell them of my background (and my age). There are literally 0 people that I know of who come from my background/line of work. I am confident in myself and my choice to come to law school. Getting the grades that I did were more of a confirmation of everything that I had been building up to at this point in time.

However, I left myself a lot of options at the school I chose, in the worst case scenario that law school and I just absolutely did not get along. I did not come to my school with the plans to transfer, if anything I would simply transfer out of the law school and enter into the engineering school (I took my GREs over the summer prior to 1L in preparation, as well as inform potential recommendation writers). I would face the bitter truth that law may not be the best option for me, and I would be in the locale of a great engineering school.

A much longer answer than what you were hoping, I'm sure. I would not advise other people to take the same approach to law school planning that I did. I thought of way too many contingencies in case of horrible grades. So when I saw my grades, I was surprised to say the least. Relieved is probably a better way to put it. So whereas I had not considered transferring up before, I believe it is something that I can consider now.

(There are a few other reasons, but they are a bit more personal than I would care to share on the forums affecting the change in my posture towards transferring.)




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