Is it really worth it? T4 to boalt Forum

[justgottabezen]

As someone who transferred to T14 and incurred a lot of debt and struggled to find a job, I often wondered how different my life would be had I stayed at my old TTT. People from my old school with horrible ranks got jobs (jobs id love to have) way before I found anything. Not sure how different TTT is from TTTT, but I imagine similar if not Cooley. I'd do research into job prospects from both schools (talk to current 3Ls and recent grads) before making a final decision. If no one is getting a job from your old school, go to Boalt.

Thanks. Good to hear from someone who's been in this position.

[justgottabezen]

People from my old school with horrible ranks got jobs (jobs id love to have)

There are a TON of other factors at play here. Connections etc...

Yea, some T4 schools make up for the fact that school's name won't get you far by hiring profs and admin that are well connected and can help grads get a foot in the door. I can personally attest to that because I got an awesome summer job from my T4 (working with students from top schools) simply because someone in career services has connections.

In any case, I ended up transferring to Georgetown. It may sound odd but the name has the same or more weight on the east coast than Boalt. They also offer need based grants which can cover a huge bulk of tuition (up to 30k). Based on the fact that my family is mad poor, I'm hoping to get a decent grant. I'll find out this week.

[XxSpyKEx]

How much debt at the current school and how much debt at Boalt?

about 60,000 at current school, probably over $200,000 at boalt

1. Boalt or bust b/c 60k in debt from a TTTT is a joke.
2. Do you think anyone gives a shit that you were valedictorian of Cooley, TJSL, Nova, or whatever ?
3. LJL at not liking Cali.

This is a little absurd. $60k is not a lot of debt, and you can reasonably repay that without even having a legal job. $200k borrowed is a lot even assuming biglaw. $200k borrowed will probably be more like $230k at the time you enter repayment. So assuming you're at 7.9% interest, you'll need to pay $18,170 in the next year just to pay off the interest. Pretty much, you won't be able to repay it without biglaw. If OP was biglaw or bust (as maybe you are?), I could see transferring being a good argument. But for someone who actively doesn't want biglaw and wants to work as a PD? It depends. If OP is looking for a SCOTUS clerkship, followed by working as a federal public defender for the southern district of new york, then, yeah, transferring is necessary. On the other hand, if OP merely wants to work at some PD's office not in a major city, then Boalt isn't going to do very much for him. Most public defenders don't have t14 credentials, and they, obviously, think that they are good, so those people aren't quite as impressed by someone who went to a t14 and is applying merely because biglaw didn't want him and needs PSLF. In the wanting a PD's office that's not in a major city scenario, OP would be better off just staying at his T4, taking a bunch of criminal law related clinics, volunteering at the local PD's office, and working his ass off show a genuine commitment to public service and representing indigent people who are charged with crimes.

1. Debt is debt, it doesn't matter whether it's for COL or tuition. My point was that there is a stronger argument for taking out 200k in debt for Boalt than 60k for a T4.

What if I'm 200k in debt and unemployed? I'm not really wanting to get a biglaw job. I think I would have to if I wanted to pay off 200k though. If I go back to my tier 4 I can always get a job back home as a PD. That's not going to do much for me if I'm 200k in debt, but it wouldn't be awful if I was only 60k in the hole. The job market isn't awesome no matter where you go, right?

How are you so sure you can get a job as a PD? A lot of law students (and lay people) think of PD as being a back-up job that can easily be obtained and there are a lot of variables that make that not the case (mainly funding and timing).

If you are 100% sure that you can become a PD and that is what you want to do, then you should stick with your TTTT and it really isn't a dilemma. But Gov't gigs like PDs are virtually never a sure thing.

Yeah, but attending boalt isn't necessarily increasing OP's odds at a PD's office in bumblefuck either. And if OP is borrowing $200k, he's pretty much going to need biglaw to repay it, but OP sounds like he doesn't want biglaw, so there's that. I think the transfer makes a lot more sense if there's something solid that OP wants but will need to transfer to get--like biglaw, a fed clerkship, fed gvt, etc. If OP is from some middle of nowhere city, was attending a t4 in his home state, and merely wants to work at the PD's office in the middle of nowhere city, then this might be one of the few situations where transferring doesn't make much sense.

[TTRansfer]

TBF, you need to consider payment plans like PAYE (which I will be doing for sure) that make the payments at least manageable (w/ loan forgiveness after 25 years).

[ggocat]

Isn't PSLF still a thing? I understand there was debate about cutting it back, but wouldn't it still apply to OP's $200K of debt from Boalt? So it's not really "biglaw or bust" from Boalt.
Boalt --> 10 years public service w/ minimum payments --> discharge remainder, seems like a decent option.
OP would probably get traction in Cali and "back home," wherever that is, with a JD from Boalt.

[Total Litigator]

If you want to be a PD in the region you go to law school, stay.

If you want to work biglaw or PD in NY or DC, then transfer to Boalt.

Honestly, there is no good answer here, both are not great.

The safer answer is to stay, the gamble is to transfer. You feeling lucky punk?

[XxSpyKEx]

TBF, you need to consider payment plans like PAYE (which I will be doing for sure) that make the payments at least manageable (w/ loan forgiveness after 25 years).

PAYE has loan forgiveness in 20 years, assuming no PLSF. But, the tax bomb is pretty big deal. If you're only making 10% payments out of a $50K salary (adjusted for 150% of the poverty line) on a quarter million dollars worth of debt for 20 years, you're probably going to owe more in taxes than the $250k you originally borrowed (since your student loan debt will probably grow to around a million in 20 years). You could hope that the tax bomb is eliminated, but with the outstanding student loan debt that the government is holding now, I'd bet that these programs are going to become less generous as time goes on, rather than more generous (i.e. tax payers aren't going to want to be paying off all these bad debts).

Isn't PSLF still a thing? I understand there was debate about cutting it back, but wouldn't it still apply to OP's $200K of debt from Boalt? So it's not really "biglaw or bust" from Boalt.
Boalt --> 10 years public service w/ minimum payments --> discharge remainder, seems like a decent option.
OP would probably get traction in Cali and "back home," wherever that is, with a JD from Boalt.

Assuming PLSF is still around and will discharge the entire student loan balance at the time OP gets his 120 payments in... Based on the recent discussions of cutting the program back, it's a big risk to take about that much debt on hopes that it'll be discharged through public service. Also, I think the bigger point here is that attending Boalt actually hurts OP's chances of working as a PD in some town in bumblefuck (assuming that's what his ultimate goal is out of law school), because OP won't be able to intern and make the connections that he could be making by attending a local school, and those PD offices really don't care much about whether you attended a t14 (which is largely a factor of the fact that the attorneys at those offices didn't attend particularly great schools and believe that they are good attorneys). I don't think attending Boalt would necessarily break his odds of working at one of those smaller PD offices (because he could still intern during the summers), but it's basically going to be a waste of money (since those PD's offices don't care about whether you attended a t14) and he'd be better off interning during the school year as well. Obviously, it's a different situation if OP wants to work in biglaw or a top PD's office (e.g. FPD or DC PDS).

[XxSpyKEx]

If you want to be a PD in the region you go to law school, stay.

If you want to work biglaw or PD in NY or DC, then transfer to Boalt.

Honestly, there is no good answer here, both are not great.

The safer answer is to stay, the gamble is to transfer. You feeling lucky punk?

This.

[ggocat]

I agree there's a risk of PSLF getting the ax, but I don't think it's very likely to happen without grandfathering people like OP. Just speculation, of course.

I think the "PD's don't care about prestige" argument is not universally true. They might not care as much as other types of employers, and sure some might not care at all, but it's hard to generalize. By staying at the T4, OP's chances might only be improved in the region of the T4. A degree from Boalt could help OP get interviews wherever he/she has ties, not just where the T4 is located.

Regardless, OP said, "I don't know what kind of law I want to practice but I'm considering work as a PD." Telling OP to stay primarily because Boalt is not much better for PD is really limiting OP's options. Boalt opens up more and better public service opportunities (particularly federal) and clerkships.

This is just my two cents. I'm a TTT grad with no debt working public service. But had PSLF been around when I enrolled, I think I would have jumped on that boondoggle and attended a better school. At least at my workplace, the name of your law school matters even 5-10+ years out of school (for hiring, not promotion). Two of the last three people hired went to HYS with biglaw experience.

EDIT: Oh nevermind, I missed the dates of this old thread and OP's post below; I guess this is a moot point.

In any case, I ended up transferring to Georgetown.

[tuhaybey]

You should definitely transfer. The opportunities that will be open to you with a Boalt degree are categorically better than anything even the valedictorian of a T4 school has access to.

[butlerraider1]

You should definitely transfer. The opportunities that will be open to you with a Boalt degree are categorically better than anything even the valedictorian of a T4 school has access to.

nice necro man

[AReasonableMan]

If OP did strike out then the old school was likely a better deal, but hindsight is 20/20. Normally he or she made the right move because the only shot at not striking out is the transfer

[tuhaybey]

nice necro man

Hey, it was on the first page of the transfers folder! Guess it's a slow folder...

[BVest]

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