H or NYU for public interest? Also, any successful LDR? Forum

[zor]

Transferring from lower NYC T2.

H: Um, it's Harvard. Possibly better fellowship opportunities? Similar placement. I really have no idea what the advantage is here besides the name, and whether that advantage is big enough in something like public interest. It's possible I would get need-based aid, but they don't tell you until after you've committed to enroll so for purposes of choosing I have to assume I get nothing.

NYU: Best clinical program in the country. Most generous LRAP in the country but no aid. Large and committed public interest community. Also not Harvard.

However, not all else is equal. I live in NY now with my long-term bf (nearly 9 years). He can't leave NY (he just got a promotion and a raise at the first job he's ever loved). We had a brutal, emotional evening talking about it. If I stay, he's worried I'll resent him and I'm worried I'll always wonder, what if? If I go, we're both worried we'll a) be completely miserable; and b) grow apart.

So, 1) for PUBLIC INTEREST, are they basically equivalent? I know the BigLaw folks will say transfer but that's not my path.
2) Anyone out there successfully managed a two-year long distance relationship?

Deadline for Harvard is Monday. Jerks.

[smaug_]

Are you sure that NYU has the most generous LRAP in the country? That sounds wrong.

Anyway, I think it might depend on the time of public interest law you want to do. There are advantages to being in the city, but Harvard will likely open doors in the PI world as well. If you know there is a very specific clinic that you want to do at NYU that you can't do at H, I'd go with H.

[knope2012]

I'm biased, since I applied to H but not to NYU, but I would take H. I just think the extent of the network (including for public interest) is much better. From friends who go to H, my impression is that the PI/activist community is quite strong, which is something I'm looking forward to.

As for your relationship question, I think moving is hard, but regret is sooooo much harder. If you've been together for 9 years, you can make it for 2 years (less, with summers in NYC) doing the Boston-NYC commute. I've been in a long distance relationship (DC-Chicago) for 2 years now (both of us are in law school) and I think it's totally doable if you're committed and you have an end point in sight, which it sounds like you do. A long distance relationship is not the end of the world if you know you're coming home to NYC as soon as you graduate and can plan your life together after that.

[Benjamin1987]

Transferring from lower NYC T2.

H: Um, it's Harvard. Possibly better fellowship opportunities? Similar placement. I really have no idea what the advantage is here besides the name, and whether that advantage is big enough in something like public interest. It's possible I would get need-based aid, but they don't tell you until after you've committed to enroll so for purposes of choosing I have to assume I get nothing.

NYU: Best clinical program in the country. Most generous LRAP in the country but no aid. Large and committed public interest community. Also not Harvard.

However, not all else is equal. I live in NY now with my long-term bf (nearly 9 years). He can't leave NY (he just got a promotion and a raise at the first job he's ever loved). We had a brutal, emotional evening talking about it. If I stay, he's worried I'll resent him and I'm worried I'll always wonder, what if? If I go, we're both worried we'll a) be completely miserable; and b) grow apart.

So, 1) for PUBLIC INTEREST, are they basically equivalent? I know the BigLaw folks will say transfer but that's not my path.
2) Anyone out there successfully managed a two-year long distance relationship?

Deadline for Harvard is Monday. Jerks.

You can't go wrong either way. However, I think you already know the right answer for your situation. Your heart is clearly set on NYU. You are already comfortable and familiar with NY. Long distance relationship while attending T6 school? Yuck! You are clearly bright, but there will be an adjustment from your T2. It seems risky for your relationship and/or (more importantly) your academic success. Plus NYU is widely regarded as on an even playing field with any institution (including H) when it comes to PI. Harvard is Harvard, but the best choice is to go with your heart and don't get caught star-gazing.

GL either way! Not that you need it.

[Stinson]

Network and connections are the currency for obtaining PI, rather than prestige as with biglaw. Harvard wins there. I couldn't speak much to clinics, though I doubt NYU has sufficient advantage there to say it's "the best." The comparison is even more off as regards the LRAP. Harvard's is different rather than worse; for example, if covers more kinds of employment than does NYU's, and does not depend on federal money.

Also read up a bit on Harvard's public service venture fund, which no other school has to my knowledge. It's ~ $1 million per year that the school gives to people either starting their own nonprofit ventures or pays for positions at existing organizations. And that's of course in addition to all the school-specific fellowships.

However, the relationship question is one only you can answer. Don't count on making the Boston-NYC commute frequently, probably not nearly as frequently as you'd like. A nine year relationship is legitimate and, to my mind, worth making sacrifices for. Getting a desirable PI position is brutal right now no matter the school, and will be a challenge at Harvard or NYU.

[whynat]

Dating for 9 years and not married = issue.

[rogermurdoch]

Financially you are probably better off with NYU+LRAP since you want to do PI. I doubt need based aid from Harvard will make much of a difference to your bottom line. Living in NYC with your boyfriend and splitting expenses might also be cheaper than going solo in Cambridge.

[zor]

Are you sure that NYU has the most generous LRAP in the country? That sounds wrong.

Anyway, I think it might depend on the time of public interest law you want to do. There are advantages to being in the city, but Harvard will likely open doors in the PI world as well. If you know there is a very specific clinic that you want to do at NYU that you can't do at H, I'd go with H.

It does. As long as you make under $80k, NYU pays 100% of your loans. At that salary, Harvard makes you pay $12k. Their loan forgiveness program is pretty shitty. http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/sfs/ ... scale.html

Knope2012: best icon. Also thank you for sharing. I know it's doable, but hard--the question I guess is, is it worth the difficulty/stress/pain for the benefit I'd get from H?

Benjamin1987: Yeah, thank you! I know, what a douchey dilemma, right? Oh woe, do I go to Harvard or NYU? But it is hard to say no to Harvard.

Network and connections are the currency for obtaining PI, rather than prestige as with biglaw. Harvard wins there. I couldn't speak much to clinics, though I doubt NYU has sufficient advantage there to say it's "the best." The comparison is even more off as regards the LRAP. Harvard's is different rather than worse; for example, if covers more kinds of employment than does NYU's, and does not depend on federal money.

Also read up a bit on Harvard's public service venture fund, which no other school has to my knowledge. It's ~ $1 million per year that the school gives to people either starting their own nonprofit ventures or pays for positions at existing organizations. And that's of course in addition to all the school-specific fellowships.

However, the relationship question is one only you can answer. Don't count on making the Boston-NYC commute frequently, probably not nearly as frequently as you'd like. A nine year relationship is legitimate and, to my mind, worth making sacrifices for. Getting a desirable PI position is brutal right now no matter the school, and will be a challenge at Harvard or NYU.

NYU has three clinics I would die to take that are right on-point for my interests in racial justice/women's rights. Harvard has its own legal services organization, but nothing specifically geared to what I want to do, and most of their PI clinics are prosecutor/govt focused while I'm on the other side. Harvard's LRAP is different in a way that is much weaker for me. I have no interest in starting my own nonprofit or pursuing low-paying private sector work, so given how much they expect you to contribute based on income (see above chart) NYU's superior for my specific goals.

Yeah, the job market is so brutal and I definitely want every advantage. But given that PI is such a weird thing, based so heavily on connections, I wonder if NYU's extensive NY network wouldn't actually in the long run be the bigger advantage? It is so, so hard to know.

Dating for 9 years and not married = issue.

Mmmm I love anonymous internet judgment! Not that it's your business, but we don't want to get married (to anyone).

Financially you are probably better off with NYU+LRAP since you want to do PI. I doubt need based aid from Harvard will make much of a difference to your bottom line. Living in NYC with your boyfriend and splitting expenses might also be cheaper than going solo in Cambridge.

This is definitely true. I think that financially and emotionally I would definitely be better off at NYU. But career opportunity-wise? Harvard is indeed forever...

[whynat]

Dating for 9 years and not married = issue.

Mmmm I love anonymous internet judgment! Not that it's your business, but we don't want to get married (to anyone).

You're right, it isn't any of my business. However, you posted this on an online forum for the world to see. I was just applying some of my test-taking skills and spotting the issue I found most important.

Honestly, your post was a thinly-veiled humblebrag. You're in a great situation regardless of where you end up. I don't think you'll have any trouble landing on your feet (as I'm sure most would agree).

P.S. your significant other is a jerk/jerkette if s/he "grew apart" after 9 years because you chased your dream at Harvard.

[UnfrozenCaveman]

You're right, it isn't any of my business. However, you posted this on an online forum for the world to see. I was just applying some of my test-taking skills and spotting the issue I found most important.

Honestly, your post was a thinly-veiled humblebrag. You're in a great situation regardless of where you end up. I don't think you'll have any trouble landing on your feet (as I'm sure most would agree).

P.S. your significant other is a jerk/jerkette if s/he "grew apart" after 9 years because you chased your dream at Harvard.

Its hardly a humblebrag when she has been posting in these forums for a while about the transferring and her career goals. I'm just issue spotting...

And yea, she posted that on a public forum but the info is ancillary to the issues she is deciding so I don't think it required that sort of input.

[Stinson]

I don't think being together for nine years and not being married is an issue at all, FWIW. Marriage is a set of legal obligations and benefits, and maybe you care about those at this particular point and maybe not, and sometimes something you do because older relatives pressure you. But it is no proxy for depth of commitment.

As to the LRAP's, it's interesting that you note you have no interest in the government side, as those are the only PI positions in which the take home pay differences between Harvard and NYU's LRAP programs are likely to matter. Bigfed pays enough for you to worry about paying $12k on an $80k salary. Most PI orgs do not. For the first few years you are likely to be stringing together PI fellowships that play like $35-40k, hoping to get bumped up to regular positions that pay like $50k. I'm not saying that no PI org pays more than that - though they are likely to be incredibly competitive if they do - or that eight or nine years out you might not be making that, but the difference is likely smaller than you make it out to be. NYU and Chicago both inflate the value of their LRAP programs by pointing out the savings you can get out of salary amounts that almost no one - excepting government employee - makes, especially in the first few years. Harvard starts to suck around $60k, but that is the top end for the majority of PI jobs. (I think LIPP might increase caps as you go, but you'd have to check that.)

I get that you don't want to start your own non-profit or work in low-paying private (though sometimes the latter would include what people might consider PI - many employment discrimination firms, for example, are private, do what I consider good work for the world, and pay new associates 50-60k). The only wrinkle to consider is that LIPP will cover ANY non-profit job, NYU only covers those in a legal/policy capacity in non-profit. I admit that is unlikely to matter, but you seem to have strong feelings about particular causes and may discover at some point you want to serve those causes in a non-legal way, particularly if you find you don't much like lawyering. Unlikely, but something to think on.

All this said - I admit I am a bit of a booster for LIPP, because I think it is a better structured program than people give it credit for and I have a little HLS pride - you really seem to want to go to NYU. That's a factor too.

[legalmindedfella]

zor, when you say racial justice/women's rights, that makes it sound - to me, at least - that you're wanting to either work in direct services/representation, or at a public interest organization. Consequently I think NYU really sounds like the better decision, given that New York is the ground floor for the former and your connections would be unbeatable on the latter. Conversely, I would say Harvard if you want to work government or if you want to work at a heavy-hitter, extremely selective public interest organization like the ACLU (which, despite its very close ties to NYU and New York City, is very prestige-conscious).

More detail on your specific career goals might help. Also, the way you're talking, generally speaking, you're gonna find you fit in at NYU. I don't know enough about Harvard to know if you'd fit in there, but the left-wing/social-justice crowd at NYU is real, very welcoming, and knows what it's doing in terms of networking.

Edit: Just adding... neither of these are bad options. Congratulations.

[JamMasterJ]

What's the cost difference? I know NYU would be sticker and H gives need aid to transfers and obviously the COL is lower.

[zor]

As to the LRAP's, it's interesting that you note you have no interest in the government side, as those are the only PI positions in which the take home pay differences between Harvard and NYU's LRAP programs are likely to matter. Bigfed pays enough for you to worry about paying $12k on an $80k salary. Most PI orgs do not. For the first few years you are likely to be stringing together PI fellowships that play like $35-40k, hoping to get bumped up to regular positions that pay like $50k. I'm not saying that no PI org pays more than that - though they are likely to be incredibly competitive if they do - or that eight or nine years out you might not be making that, but the difference is likely smaller than you make it out to be. NYU and Chicago both inflate the value of their LRAP programs by pointing out the savings you can get out of salary amounts that almost no one - excepting government employee - makes, especially in the first few years. Harvard starts to suck around $60k, but that is the top end for the majority of PI jobs. (I think LIPP might increase caps as you go, but you'd have to check that.)

Oh no, don't worry, I totally appreciate someone being a cheerleader for LIPP. I guess I wasn't clear about my goals, which legalmindedfellow also pointed to. I wrote a post on my goals earlier that obviously you would not have necessarily seen: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=203359

Long story short: I'm not interested in direct service (if I were, I would have stayed at my T2 with no debt). I want to work for a large, national impact litigation org like ACLU, CCR, NAACP LDF, LatinoJustice, etc. Those jobs do pay slightly better than the usual $40k public interest slog but will likely not break $80k, especially in the first five years. But it may matter to the latter half of the ten year commitment, which is why I have an eye to it. However, working for the DOJ Civil Rights division would be a dream job, so I am totally open to government work, but understand how competitive all of these things are and want to be realistic about my options on both the low end of the salary scale and mid-end.

Oh it's Jam! I remember you from the Northwestern waitlist last year... we rode it out together. NYU would be sticker and H gives need, but they don't give you your need package until after the deposit deadline, and they have a minimum debt policy. H is also weird in that they calculate a baseline "student contribution" that isn't eligible for LIPP. So NYU would definitely cost more on the front end, but potentially cost less on the back end.

[legalmindedfella]

As to the LRAP's, it's interesting that you note you have no interest in the government side, as those are the only PI positions in which the take home pay differences between Harvard and NYU's LRAP programs are likely to matter. Bigfed pays enough for you to worry about paying $12k on an $80k salary. Most PI orgs do not. For the first few years you are likely to be stringing together PI fellowships that play like $35-40k, hoping to get bumped up to regular positions that pay like $50k. I'm not saying that no PI org pays more than that - though they are likely to be incredibly competitive if they do - or that eight or nine years out you might not be making that, but the difference is likely smaller than you make it out to be. NYU and Chicago both inflate the value of their LRAP programs by pointing out the savings you can get out of salary amounts that almost no one - excepting government employee - makes, especially in the first few years. Harvard starts to suck around $60k, but that is the top end for the majority of PI jobs. (I think LIPP might increase caps as you go, but you'd have to check that.)

Oh no, don't worry, I totally appreciate someone being a cheerleader for LIPP. I guess I wasn't clear about my goals, which legalmindedfellow also pointed to. I wrote a post on my goals earlier that obviously you would not have necessarily seen: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=203359

Long story short: I'm not interested in direct service (if I were, I would have stayed at my T2 with no debt). I want to work for a large, national impact litigation org like ACLU, CCR, NAACP LDF, LatinoJustice, etc. Those jobs do pay slightly better than the usual $40k public interest slog but will likely not break $80k, especially in the first five years. But it may matter to the latter half of the ten year commitment, which is why I have an eye to it. However, working for the DOJ Civil Rights division would be a dream job, so I am totally open to government work, but understand how competitive all of these things are and want to be realistic about my options on both the low end of the salary scale and mid-end.

Oh it's Jam! I remember you from the Northwestern waitlist last year... we rode it out together. NYU would be sticker and H gives need, but they don't give you your need package until after the deposit deadline, and they have a minimum debt policy. H is also weird in that they calculate a baseline "student contribution" that isn't eligible for LIPP. So NYU would definitely cost more on the front end, but potentially cost less on the back end.

Realistically academia is probably happening for you as a clinical professor rather than as a traditional scholar, given trends in hiring and your desire to do it down the road. Given your interest in clerking, etc., go to Harvard.

Speaking as someone at NYU, and I love the place, but too many of your goals are credentials-heavy and every inch probably helps. Though you'll also be perfectly happy at NYU and few if any doors will actually shut.

[pupshaw]

Bracketing the relationship question, because only you can answer that, given your career goals you should choose Harvard. NYU just cannot open the same doors for competitive PI jobs like ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, etc., and it can't compete in clerkship opportunities.

Also, while probably not comparable to NYU's, H's PI community is large and active, and the support staff in OPIA is fantastic.

[A. Nony Mouse]

2) Anyone out there successfully managed a two-year long distance relationship?

FWIW, yes. Though slightly different because we were already married, but it can be done.

[unc0mm0n1]

2) Anyone out there successfully managed a two-year long distance relationship?

FWIW, yes. Though slightly different because we were already married, but it can be done.

I unsuccessfully did it for 1 year. We had been dating for four years prior and decided to play the distance game my first year at H. It was extremely hard and the communication broke down more than we ever imagined eventually we broke up. What's crazy is that we made through long distance before. I was in the Army and we made it through a year in Iraq, but lawschool was a different beast and we just grew apart. Maybe it would be different for you because the second year isn't as stressful as the first and you'll be much closer than we were but it's going to be hard work.

[zor]

Realistically academia is probably happening for you as a clinical professor rather than as a traditional scholar, given trends in hiring and your desire to do it down the road. Given your interest in clerking, etc., go to Harvard.

Speaking as someone at NYU, and I love the place, but too many of your goals are credentials-heavy and every inch probably helps. Though you'll also be perfectly happy at NYU and few if any doors will actually shut.

Interesting. Yeah, my network of people seem to think that I'll probably be okay in either situation, but admit that Harvard has a slight edge.

Bracketing the relationship question, because only you can answer that, given your career goals you should choose Harvard. NYU just cannot open the same doors for competitive PI jobs like ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, etc., and it can't compete in clerkship opportunities.

Also, while probably not comparable to NYU's, H's PI community is large and active, and the support staff in OPIA is fantastic.

That is really good to hear, thank you. Are you at Harvard? Are you doing PI?

I unsuccessfully did it for 1 year. We had been dating for four years prior and decided to play the distance game my first year at H. It was extremely hard and the communication broke down more than we ever imagined eventually we broke up. What's crazy is that we made through long distance before. I was in the Army and we made it through a year in Iraq, but lawschool was a different beast and we just grew apart. Maybe it would be different for you because the second year isn't as stressful as the first and you'll be much closer than we were but it's going to be hard work.

I am sorry to hear that. I do think 1L was particularly stressful. I don't know if I could have made it through without my partner making me dinner and just generally being someone at home removed from my experience who could make me feel human again.

Yesterday I was leaning heavily to NYU because there seemed to be only the slightest edge on the Harvard side, and now I feel completely up in the air again. I have no idea how I am going to make this decision.

[pupshaw]

Bracketing the relationship question, because only you can answer that, given your career goals you should choose Harvard. NYU just cannot open the same doors for competitive PI jobs like ACLU, DOJ Civil Rights Division, etc., and it can't compete in clerkship opportunities.

Also, while probably not comparable to NYU's, H's PI community is large and active, and the support staff in OPIA is fantastic.

That is really good to hear, thank you. Are you at Harvard? Are you doing PI?

Yes to both. Feel free to PM if you have any more specific questions.

[canarykb]

I would absolutely say Harvard. I almost went there myself for PI but was drawn away by a fullride somewhere else. But the decision was very tough given Harvard's PI resources. Also FYI you can get your student aid amount before you commit to enroll, but it looks like you don't really have time for that.

1. HUGE clinical program. They also have Student Practice Organizations where you can start doing real work your 1L year. I would not say that NYU's clinical program is better than Harvards.

2. OPIA - large & well staffed office for PI advising

3. LIPP - LIPP really is where it's at in terms of LRAP programs. It covers any non-profit, gov't or just law-related job based on salary and you can go on & off it, so it really gives you a lot of flexibility whatever you end up doing for the 10 years after law school. I wasnt considering NYU at the point I was considering LIPP, but I've never heard that NYU's LRAP is better than Harvard's.

4. Prestige. It matters with PI, especially in those large impact-litigation firms you are discussing.

5. Harvard is a big school and their PI community is large and active (from what people told me when I visited)

I think considering they are both sticker, Harvard is the clear winner here.

[zor]

So I want to thank you all for your input on this. I've found it immensely useful. I did visit the school this weekend and had some really good interactions, and am now leaning heavily toward Harvard. Something that's holding me back is that the structure of LIPP is such that I essentially wouldn't be able to take advantage of it--I would have to be on IBR with very little or no contribution from the school (I confirmed this) because of the way that they categorize eligible/ineligible assets. In contrast, NYU would pay 100% of those IBR payments.

I think I know the answer, but I assume the enthusiasm to H is the same, even though it will cost much more in the long term?

For what it's worth for people also struggling with this (since so many have PM'd me--I am really glad to know I am not alone in feeling so torn), my bf and I are trying to work out a kind of timeshare arrangement whereby he works remotely from Boston one week a month. Also, Harvard has a winter term where you can extern at an organization (after taking a clinic, so possibly not the first year) or work on a writing project elsewhere (though you may need to get special permission), so I should be able to come home to NY the whole month of January as well, in addition to the summer. This would make the transition much easier, and those of you also trying to work out such a dilemma should look into similar options.

I have one more day to think it over, so I'm going to make a few more phone calls, but I will post when I make my final decision. I hope the thread has been helpful to others as well!

[squid2211]

Transferring from lower NYC T2.

2) Anyone out there successfully managed a two-year long distance relationship?

Yes, it is def. doable, but it likely will not be easy. Dated for 4+ years, then spent ~3 years living in different states - a lot further apart than Boston to NYC - and am now happily married. Trust and communication are the most important things to have. No one can tell you whether it will work, but if you both can honestly say you trust one another and you communicate well, then it can work. One other thing, you being in law school (and I assume him too if he works in NYC and can't leave) will have school/work commitments that will take time away from each other; this will be unavoidable at times and you should both go in understanding and accepting this. If you have any other questions or want advice, feel free to PM me. FWIW, our situation was similar in that one of us had an opportunity that would take us apart and we both wondered whether not taking it would lead to resentment/regret later on.

Edit: I think you should go to H. TBH, after a 9 year relationship you should be able to make if through 2 years apart.

[Stinson]

So I want to thank you all for your input on this. I've found it immensely useful. I did visit the school this weekend and had some really good interactions, and am now leaning heavily toward Harvard. Something that's holding me back is that the structure of LIPP is such that I essentially wouldn't be able to take advantage of it--I would have to be on IBR with very little or no contribution from the school (I confirmed this) because of the way that they categorize eligible/ineligible assets. In contrast, NYU would pay 100% of those IBR payments.

I think I know the answer, but I assume the enthusiasm to H is the same, even though it will cost much more in the long term?

For what it's worth for people also struggling with this (since so many have PM'd me--I am really glad to know I am not alone in feeling so torn), my bf and I are trying to work out a kind of timeshare arrangement whereby he works remotely from Boston one week a month. Also, Harvard has a winter term where you can extern at an organization (after taking a clinic, so possibly not the first year) or work on a writing project elsewhere (though you may need to get special permission), so I should be able to come home to NY the whole month of January as well, in addition to the summer. This would make the transition much easier, and those of you also trying to work out such a dilemma should look into similar options.

I have one more day to think it over, so I'm going to make a few more phone calls, but I will post when I make my final decision. I hope the thread has been helpful to others as well!

I always hung out in Cambridge and took classes during winter, but I think swinging something in NY should be really easy. People did all sorts of stuff - foreign countries and whatnot - so I would think NYC would be a piece of cake.

For the writing stuff, generally you just work with a professor on something. It shouldn't matter where you are, and I expect you wouldn't need any special permission as long as the (likely minimal) interaction with your professor could be done electronically.

You should also be able to travel to NYC for spring break if you don't have any obligation with your clinics; 2L and 3L are not sufficiently stressful that you need to stick around in Cambridge studying.

[zor]

I always hung out in Cambridge and took classes during winter, but I think swinging something in NY should be really easy. People did all sorts of stuff - foreign countries and whatnot - so I would think NYC would be a piece of cake.

For the writing stuff, generally you just work with a professor on something. It shouldn't matter where you are, and I expect you wouldn't need any special permission as long as the (likely minimal) interaction with your professor could be done electronically.

You should also be able to travel to NYC for spring break if you don't have any obligation with your clinics; 2L and 3L are not sufficiently stressful that you need to stick around in Cambridge studying.

That's great to know, thank you. I was concerned because the Guidelines say you have to explain why you absolutely cannot do your work in Cambridge, which made it seem like it was much more of an exception than a rule: http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/wr ... lines.html