Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:58 am

I am familiar with Arrow's advice on transferring and what he says about doing OCI twice (copied below for those who aren't). I'd love some input from the community on whether this is still credited. The most recent thread (2010) http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=124336 had an overwhelmingly negative response. If this is the case, than Arrow's advice should be amended as to not mislead transfers.

Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

This is definitely unfair. Since you are a transfer, you are in a unique position where it is possible for you to participate both in your old school’s OCI and your new school’s OCI. However, I did learn about this from a few long talks with a couple of very intelligent and clever individuals.

How does this work? Well, most non-top schools do OCI very early (like mid-August) in order to get an edge on the top schools. Most top schools can do OCI a bit later (like in September) because they are good schools and can do so. The problem is that sometimes, students do not get their acceptances until after they have started doing OCI at their old school. Therefore, if the new school also allows them to do OCI, they are not able to interview again (aka twice). The one rule in doing this is that you do not bid on or interview with the same firm at the same office twice.

So, to recap, this is possible and it does happen. I have met two people personally who have done it and heard of 3 people online who have done it. Only one person somewhere has admitted that they planned to transfer with the intent of doing OCI twice and planned it out so that he could do more interviews. My guess is that this happens a lot more often, but is kept on the down-low.

The Pros (of double dipping and doing OCI at your old school):
-Because you get more interviews (duh) and probably a wider range of interviews, in addition, you might be able to choose the location of your interview (at the new school or the old school)
-You can overcome bid/interview limits (some schools limit the number of bids or interviews you can have)
-Because this is an unusual economy and it is better to be a bit aggressive. In fact, most people think that being aggressive in the job hunt is okay. In this economy though, you take every interview you get.
-Because you have no choice. Most people who do two OCI’s are reasonable in doing so. If you have not received an acceptance yet, you MUST do OCI at your old school since it would be silly to not interview simply because you applied to transfer and you are waiting on an answer. If you do not get in, then you just screwed yourself. In addition, when you have not received an acceptance from a new school, you are still a student at your old school.
-Because sometimes, you might not be able to do OCI at your new school. Some acceptances come late and OCI bidding might be over at your new school (rare, but it happens)
-Because who would want to turn down an interview with a firm they want to work for?
-Because you paid for a year’s worth of tuition and OCI (which starts before 2L year) is “arguably” part of the 1st year since it is based on 1st year grades
-Because you are past the interview cancelation deadline and you received your acceptance like 48 hours before the interview
-Because employers often pre-select at your old school’s OCI but not your new school’s
-Because doing OCI at your old school allows for a better comparison of your grades
-Because you HAVE to do interviews somewhere right? If you are transfer, then you probably know that the people at your old school do not want you to interview there. At the same time, the people at the new school do not want you to interview there either since you are not the typical student who did their 1L year
-If you are doing OCI at your old school, you get to interview earlier and before the spots are taken up. If you end up getting an offer before your new school’s OCI, you may not have to do 2 OCI’s
-Because it is in YOUR best interest. I have never heard of doing 2 OCI’s as illegal or against school policy. In fact, most schools know about it and realize that it is a consequence that occurs when they move their OCI up early and before people get their transfer acceptances.

Cons
-This is obviously unfair since most people can only do OCI once
-Arguments have made that there is often some lying involved and borders on being unethical or immoral
-This is actually hard to do and many times you may not have the opportunity to do so
-You may have to tell your employers suddenly (if you get a callback) that they have to pay travel fees for callbacks
-This topic almost always reinforces transfer stigma
-This is not recommended as something you should do by the general population. Most people would probably think that this should be illegal

Like many people, I was super jealous when I heard about this opportunity since my two schools do OCI in pretty much the same week. Basically the advantages of doing two OCIs are SO great that people frown upon it equally greatly. It might not be so bad to get a late acceptance (or get off a waitlist) after all.


Go!

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Danger Zone
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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby Danger Zone » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:20 pm

I'm currently submitting bids, but if I were to transfer, I would withdraw them. I know TCR is typically "look out for your own interests," but this is one of those things that just seems borderline unethical.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby kyle010723 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:22 pm

If you already know you are transferring and accepted to another school, then bid at the new school only. If you are still waiting on acceptance, then by all means bid at your current school.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby $peppercorn » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:41 pm

kyle010723 wrote:If you already know you are transferring and accepted to another school, then bid at the new school only. If you are still waiting on acceptance, then by all means bid at your current school.

TITCR

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby shock259 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:05 am

I also think it is borderline unethical. You shouldn't put yourself in a position where you need to double dip in the first place. If your new school can't land you a job through OCI, you probably shouldn't transfer there.

Schedule them until you hear back. But I really think you should cancel them if you decide to transfer.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:06 am

I filled in my bidding forms for my old school before I decided that I was transferring. Now, I have received a few screening interviews and two of the firms I really would love to work for. I have not officially enrolled in my new school, other than paying the seat deposit, and I have not officially withdrawn from my old school.

However, I do intend on transferring. So, is there anyway I can continue to secure these interviews if I am going to transfer? Should I just do the interviews anyways and continue with the process? Or should I do my best to beg and plead for the firms to give me a screening interview outside of my old school's regular oci?

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby guano » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:24 am

swimmer11 wrote:I filled in my bidding forms for my old school before I decided that I was transferring. Now, I have received a few screening interviews and two of the firms I really would love to work for. I have not officially enrolled in my new school, other than paying the seat deposit, and I have not officially withdrawn from my old school.

However, I do intend on transferring. So, is there anyway I can continue to secure these interviews if I am going to transfer? Should I just do the interviews anyways and continue with the process? Or should I do my best to beg and plead for the firms to give me a screening interview outside of my old school's regular oci?

Tell them you're transferring but really like them and ask if they would be willing to interview you at their office (or by Skype, if that's inconvenient)

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby run26.2 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:33 am

Actions like doing 2 OCIs are the type of thing that make transferring for future individuals more difficult. If you do it, the school where you end up not attending is not going to be pleased, obviously. I say pick a school and live with your decision.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:35 am

guano wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:I filled in my bidding forms for my old school before I decided that I was transferring. Now, I have received a few screening interviews and two of the firms I really would love to work for. I have not officially enrolled in my new school, other than paying the seat deposit, and I have not officially withdrawn from my old school.

However, I do intend on transferring. So, is there anyway I can continue to secure these interviews if I am going to transfer? Should I just do the interviews anyways and continue with the process? Or should I do my best to beg and plead for the firms to give me a screening interview outside of my old school's regular oci?

Tell them you're transferring but really like them and ask if they would be willing to interview you at their office (or by Skype, if that's inconvenient)


Yes, unfortunately I missed the EIW bidding at my old school, and so I have to rely on their fall OCI and Mass Mailing. So, I really want to try and get as many interviews in as possible. The interviews are all this week and school doesn't start until two weeks, so could I just play it off like I am still attending the school?

Or if, by some miracle, I did receive a call back would they be upset I did not inform them I was transferring earlier?

Before it might get asked: I am transferring because it is a better school, I want another shot at writing on, I have zero debt, and my total COA will be 70k.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby IAFG » Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:37 am

Uh, no, I don't think this is unethical if you can pull it off.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:41 pm

IAFG wrote:Uh, no, I don't think this is unethical if you can pull it off.


So you don't believe there would be any negative fallout? I have my interviews this week and plan on withdrawing thereafter my final interview. I kind of feel bad, but I did spend a year going to the school and I do feel like I deserve the interviews.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby run26.2 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:09 pm

swimmer11 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Uh, no, I don't think this is unethical if you can pull it off.


So you don't believe there would be any negative fallout? I have my interviews this week and plan on withdrawing thereafter my final interview. I kind of feel bad, but I did spend a year going to the school and I do feel like I deserve the interviews.

So why not stay at the school? People who "deserve" the interviews are the people who stay at the school and graduate from it.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:19 pm

run26.2 wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Uh, no, I don't think this is unethical if you can pull it off.


So you don't believe there would be any negative fallout? I have my interviews this week and plan on withdrawing thereafter my final interview. I kind of feel bad, but I did spend a year going to the school and I do feel like I deserve the interviews.

So why not stay at the school? People who "deserve" the interviews are the people who stay at the school and graduate from it.


I was to late to do EIW at the school which accepted me. I just really like two of the firms and want the opportunity to interview with them. Do you think if I emailed them and told them the situation they would allow me to interview off campus?

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Danger Zone
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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby Danger Zone » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:22 pm

Yeah they probably would. If they liked your résumé enough to pick you, I don't see why they wouldn't still want to interview you.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby 09042014 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:23 pm

Why would you go to a school that wasn't going to let you do OCI? TTT as fuck.

Also why do people called OCI by their very school specific term like EIW or OGI. You might as well just way what school you are going to.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby sap » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Why would you go to a school that wasn't going to let you do OCI? TTT as fuck.

Also why do people called OCI by their very school specific term like EIW or OGI. You might as well just way what school you are going to.


Berkeley, NYU, Georgetown, Michigan, probably others all use EIW so I don't think it's that specific. Though I'm pretty sure all Berkeley transfers got full participation. Person above probably doesn't want to deal with the sort of unhelpful "don't bother transferring to Georgetown, it's more TTT than T14" comments that people make.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby IAFG » Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:05 pm

run26.2 wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Uh, no, I don't think this is unethical if you can pull it off.


So you don't believe there would be any negative fallout? I have my interviews this week and plan on withdrawing thereafter my final interview. I kind of feel bad, but I did spend a year going to the school and I do feel like I deserve the interviews.

So why not stay at the school? People who "deserve" the interviews are the people who stay at the school and graduate from it.

The people who deserve preselect interviews are the ones who got preselected.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby run26.2 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:27 pm

IAFG wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:
IAFG wrote:Uh, no, I don't think this is unethical if you can pull it off.


So you don't believe there would be any negative fallout? I have my interviews this week and plan on withdrawing thereafter my final interview. I kind of feel bad, but I did spend a year going to the school and I do feel like I deserve the interviews.

So why not stay at the school? People who "deserve" the interviews are the people who stay at the school and graduate from it.

The people who deserve preselect interviews are the ones who got preselected.

Well then, why even do 2L or 3L? I agree with you to an extent, but the bottom line is that a lot of students complain about tuition, too many schools, too many law graduates, etc.

So is the answer simply to screw the schools because tuition is too high or whatever? Sounds hypocritical to me.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby Jsa725 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:30 pm

.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby IAFG » Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:56 pm

run26.2 wrote:Well then, why even do 2L or 3L? I agree with you to an extent, but the bottom line is that a lot of students complain about tuition, too many schools, too many law graduates, etc.

So is the answer simply to screw the schools because tuition is too high or whatever? Sounds hypocritical to me.

The firms want to interview you, you arguably have some right to be there by virtue of having paid tuition a year, and the whole point of going to law school is to get a job. I just don't see the ethics issue.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:25 pm

I am going to do the screening interview with the firm that I can't cancel because the deadline has past. I don't want to damage my potential chance with the firm or my former schools standing with the firm. However, I am going to withdraw from the other interviews and email them begging and pleading for a screener before I leave.

I have contemplated telling the interviewer I am transferring, but I think I will just cross that bridge if receive a callback.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby IAFG » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:33 pm

swimmer11 wrote:I am going to do the screening interview with the firm that I can't cancel because the deadline has past. I don't want to damage my potential chance with the firm or my former schools standing with the firm. However, I am going to withdraw from the other interviews and email them begging and pleading for a screener before I leave.

I have contemplated telling the interviewer I am transferring, but I think I will just cross that bridge if receive a callback.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't you say, I am withdrawing because I think it would be unethical to take interview slots since I am transferring. However I will be available to interview during [date range]? Why would you not mention it ?!?!

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby NYstate » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:36 pm

IAFG wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:I am going to do the screening interview with the firm that I can't cancel because the deadline has past. I don't want to damage my potential chance with the firm or my former schools standing with the firm. However, I am going to withdraw from the other interviews and email them begging and pleading for a screener before I leave.

I have contemplated telling the interviewer I am transferring, but I think I will just cross that bridge if receive a callback.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't you say, I am withdrawing because I think it would be unethical to take interview slots since I am transferring. However I will be available to interview during [date range]? Why would you not mention it ?!?!


I agree with this. To not mention transferring would be strange. Just do what IAFG suggests.
You are not thinking clearly about OCI.

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:44 pm

NYstate wrote:
IAFG wrote:
swimmer11 wrote:I am going to do the screening interview with the firm that I can't cancel because the deadline has past. I don't want to damage my potential chance with the firm or my former schools standing with the firm. However, I am going to withdraw from the other interviews and email them begging and pleading for a screener before I leave.

I have contemplated telling the interviewer I am transferring, but I think I will just cross that bridge if receive a callback.

I don't get it. Why wouldn't you say, I am withdrawing because I think it would be unethical to take interview slots since I am transferring. However I will be available to interview during [date range]? Why would you not mention it ?!?!


I agree with this. To not mention transferring would be strange. Just do what IAFG suggests.
You are not thinking clearly about OCI.


EDIT: Interview was rescheduled. I am sending the emails today. Pray to the lord now (highly skeptical this will work, but it is the right thing to do).

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Re: Transfers: Doing 2 OCI’s and Double Dipping

Postby swimmer11 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:29 am

Do I email the interviewer? Or do I interview HR at the firm?

Should I say something along the lines of: "I am emailing to inform you of my decision to withdraw from my interview scheduled at X. I am transferring from X to Y, and I believe that I have an ethical obligation to withdraw myself from all pending interviews at the school I am transferring from.

I am really interested in your firm because of X reason and Y reason, and I would welcome the opportunity to interview with you outside of my school's OCI. I will continue to reside in X for the next week and a half, and I plan on returning frequently for interviews."

Any last minute suggestions, critiques, etc.




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