Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

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beastienoise
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:25 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Transfer2DC wrote:
IAFG wrote:It really seems more honest to re-rank after transfers. That reflects the class as they are available to interview on day 1 of OCI.



Seems like a fallacy to me. If a student who was intitally ranked 7/300 and is now ranked 1/293 because the ones above her transfered, she is inacurratley and falsely being identified as performing the best in her class at the time. She should stay 7/300 and employers will never interview anyone higher because they dont exist.


Then transfers shouldn't be allowed to recruit at their new schools because they weren't students "at the time."


No, this is why transfer students during OCIs are almost always evaluated against their former peers who they did compete against.

beastienoise
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:27 pm

Desert Fox wrote:And in all seriousness, having a ranking of only students remain makes much more sense than leaving in people who aren't students.

When the boxing champ retires, his belts are removed.


Only makes sense if 1) every school does it 2) it is actually a ranking of the students who remain and not just a ranking of the students who remain who didn't apply to transfer.

And really, even then, it makes no sense. Lets say 2% of the class transfer one year and 50% of the class transfer next, you're saying that employers should view the person who was bumped up to #1 the first year the same as someone who was bumped up to #1 the next? Come on.
Last edited by beastienoise on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:27 pm

Transfer2DC wrote:
IAFG wrote:It really seems more honest to re-rank after transfers. That reflects the class as they are available to interview on day 1 of OCI.



Seems like a fallacy to me. If a student who was intitally ranked 7/300 and is now ranked 1/293 because the ones above her transfered, she is inacurratley and falsely being identified as performing the best in her class at the time. She should stay 7/300 and employers will never interview anyone higher because they dont exist.

Okay, that's just silly. I think it's kind of bogus to re-rank people before transfers have actually happened, but once the people who transfer actually do so, of course the school should re-rank. That "new" #1 student is the highest-ranking student left at the school, regardless of how many people above her left (for whatever reason). Why on earth would you count students who aren't there?

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:27 pm

beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Transfer2DC wrote:
IAFG wrote:It really seems more honest to re-rank after transfers. That reflects the class as they are available to interview on day 1 of OCI.



Seems like a fallacy to me. If a student who was intitally ranked 7/300 and is now ranked 1/293 because the ones above her transfered, she is inacurratley and falsely being identified as performing the best in her class at the time. She should stay 7/300 and employers will never interview anyone higher because they dont exist.


Then transfers shouldn't be allowed to recruit at their new schools because they weren't students "at the time."


No, this is why transfer students during OCIs are almost always evaluated against their former peers who they did compete against.


Yet they aren't at their old schools OCI, and they have a schools name on their resume they haven't even done orientation with. You cannot demand to have your cake and eat it too. Either you are a student at the new, or the old. Leaving your school forfeits your rank.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:28 pm

beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And in all seriousness, having a ranking of only students remain makes much more sense than leaving in people who aren't students.

When the boxing champ retires, his belts are removed.


Only makes sense if 1) every school does it 2) it is actually a ranking of the students who remain and not just a ranking of the students who remain who didn't apply to transfer.


1) I see no reason for that to be true. Rankings aren't standardized, it's a school by school process.

2) They've got to be able to cut it off sometime.

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stillwater
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby stillwater » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:29 pm

the problem is that when transfer students use their old rank/gpa at the new OCI, it creates this ridiculous parallel ranking system where there are in effect 2 ranking systems for the same school. that just doesnt make sense numerically or in reality. i sympathize with a school trying to get its students jerbz but i think firms that recruit at both would recognize the fallacy.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:33 pm

stillwater wrote:the problem is that when transfer students use their old rank/gpa at the new OCI, it creates this ridiculous parallel ranking system where there are in effect 2 ranking systems for the same school. that just doesnt make sense numerically or in reality. i sympathize with a school trying to get its students jerbz but i think firms that recruit at both would recognize the fallacy.


They shouldn't be allowed to use a ranking at the new school. They aren't students.

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stillwater
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby stillwater » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:34 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
stillwater wrote:the problem is that when transfer students use their old rank/gpa at the new OCI, it creates this ridiculous parallel ranking system where there are in effect 2 ranking systems for the same school. that just doesnt make sense numerically or in reality. i sympathize with a school trying to get its students jerbz but i think firms that recruit at both would recognize the fallacy.


They shouldn't be allowed to use a ranking at the new school. They aren't students.


i dont think law schools would go for that because it would handcuff one of their prized cash cow demographics: the transfer student. the schools that are having students leave are also receiving them.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:35 pm

stillwater wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
stillwater wrote:the problem is that when transfer students use their old rank/gpa at the new OCI, it creates this ridiculous parallel ranking system where there are in effect 2 ranking systems for the same school. that just doesnt make sense numerically or in reality. i sympathize with a school trying to get its students jerbz but i think firms that recruit at both would recognize the fallacy.


They shouldn't be allowed to use a ranking at the new school. They aren't students.


i dont think law schools would go for that because it would handcuff one of their prized cash cow demographics: the transfer student. the schools that are having students leave are also receiving them.


I mean the old school shouldn't let them.

The Dean Cert should say Ranking: TTTransfer.
Last edited by 09042014 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

beastienoise
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:35 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And in all seriousness, having a ranking of only students remain makes much more sense than leaving in people who aren't students.

When the boxing champ retires, his belts are removed.


Only makes sense if 1) every school does it 2) it is actually a ranking of the students who remain and not just a ranking of the students who remain who didn't apply to transfer.


1) I see no reason for that to be true. Rankings aren't standardized, it's a school by school process.

2) They've got to be able to cut it off sometime.


1) If they aren't standardized and employees are expected to keep track of which schools rerank and which don't, then why even do it. Isn't the point that some employer will be fooled by the higher ranks in your class.

2) You don't have to cut if off before people have even applied to transfer.

And all of this is besides the point, if I'm an employer, I don't care if you are number one after an arbitrary number of people transferred, that doesn't mean anything since it's in large part determined by how many people decided to leave and how many of them were successful. I'd be much more interested in how you did amongst all of your peers during your first year. If someone ranked 100/200 was bumped to #1 after 99 people transfered, and someone who was 7/200 was bumped to #2 after 5 people transferred, I don't care what your ranking after transfers was, I care about what it was initially.

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stillwater
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby stillwater » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
stillwater wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
stillwater wrote:the problem is that when transfer students use their old rank/gpa at the new OCI, it creates this ridiculous parallel ranking system where there are in effect 2 ranking systems for the same school. that just doesnt make sense numerically or in reality. i sympathize with a school trying to get its students jerbz but i think firms that recruit at both would recognize the fallacy.


They shouldn't be allowed to use a ranking at the new school. They aren't students.


i dont think law schools would go for that because it would handcuff one of their prized cash cow demographics: the transfer student. the schools that are having students leave are also receiving them.


I mean the old school shouldn't let them.

The Dean Cert should say Ranking: TTTransfer.


the now transfer student also paid their former school for "tuition." i would assume that should include a ranking, not a Soviet-esque scrubbing from the record.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby IAFG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:39 pm

beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And in all seriousness, having a ranking of only students remain makes much more sense than leaving in people who aren't students.

When the boxing champ retires, his belts are removed.


Only makes sense if 1) every school does it 2) it is actually a ranking of the students who remain and not just a ranking of the students who remain who didn't apply to transfer.


1) I see no reason for that to be true. Rankings aren't standardized, it's a school by school process.

2) They've got to be able to cut it off sometime.


1) If they aren't standardized and employees are expected to keep track of which schools rerank and which don't, then why even do it. Isn't the point that some employer will be fooled by the higher ranks in your class.

2) You don't have to cut if off before people have even applied to transfer.

And all of this is besides the point, if I'm an employer, I don't care if you are number one after an arbitrary number of people transferred, that doesn't mean anything since it's in large part determined by how many people decided to leave and how many of them were successful. I'd be much more interested in how you did amongst all of your peers during your first year. If someone ranked 100/200 was bumped to #1 after 99 people transfered, and someone who was 7/200 was bumped to #2 after 5 people transferred, I don't care what your ranking after transfers was, I care about what it was initially.

Oh Jesus. Cry me a river for the fucking firm who wants to know if you were really the 15th best student or 30th. They'll be fine.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:39 pm

I think you're overestimating the difference between #1 and #7 on the typical law school curve. Those GPAs are going to be pretty damn close. The person who transfers will still be able to say they were # (whatever) at their old school, and, as someone said, now gets the new school's name on their resume. I agree that making you give up your rank for the possibility of a transfer is bogus, but once you're out of there, why on earth does it matter what the school does about rankings?

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:39 pm

stillwater wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
stillwater wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:They shouldn't be allowed to use a ranking at the new school. They aren't students.


i dont think law schools would go for that because it would handcuff one of their prized cash cow demographics: the transfer student. the schools that are having students leave are also receiving them.


I mean the old school shouldn't let them.

The Dean Cert should say Ranking: TTTransfer.


the now transfer student also paid their former school for "tuition." i would assume that should include a ranking, not a Soviet-esque scrubbing from the record.


They have a ranking if they stay. When they leave they aren't a student anymore. They keep their grades.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby 09042014 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:41 pm

beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And in all seriousness, having a ranking of only students remain makes much more sense than leaving in people who aren't students.

When the boxing champ retires, his belts are removed.


Only makes sense if 1) every school does it 2) it is actually a ranking of the students who remain and not just a ranking of the students who remain who didn't apply to transfer.


1) I see no reason for that to be true. Rankings aren't standardized, it's a school by school process.

2) They've got to be able to cut it off sometime.


1) If they aren't standardized and employees are expected to keep track of which schools rerank and which don't, then why even do it. Isn't the point that some employer will be fooled by the higher ranks in your class.

2) You don't have to cut if off before people have even applied to transfer.

And all of this is besides the point, if I'm an employer, I don't care if you are number one after an arbitrary number of people transferred, that doesn't mean anything since it's in large part determined by how many people decided to leave and how many of them were successful. I'd be much more interested in how you did amongst all of your peers during your first year. If someone ranked 100/200 was bumped to #1 after 99 people transfered, and someone who was 7/200 was bumped to #2 after 5 people transferred, I don't care what your ranking after transfers was, I care about what it was initially.



1) Firms already have to keep track of who ranks period. I doubt firms care anyway.

beastienoise
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think you're overestimating the difference between #1 and #7 on the typical law school curve. Those GPAs are going to be pretty damn close. The person who transfers will still be able to say they were # (whatever) at their old school, and, as someone said, now gets the new school's name on their resume. I agree that making you give up your rank for the possibility of a transfer is bogus, but once you're out of there, why on earth does it matter what the school does about rankings?


I wouldn't care. Just saying that if we were adopting a rule across schools, ranking post-transfers isn't as informative.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:44 pm

Desert Fox wrote:

1) Firms already have to keep track of who ranks period. I doubt firms care anyway.


Wasn't my point, if they are expected to keep track of who reranks then why do it. The only way it could be in your advantage as a school is if someone is fooled.

In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:47 pm

beastienoise wrote:
OP do you care if I out the school?

OP here...
Do I take it you know which school I am talking about? I'm talking with the school in the next few days, I'll see how that goes.

I've seen a lot of interesting comments, not going to have a chance to get back on until this evening. But my general opinion is that you earn your place based on who you competed with at the time. Once the transfers leave, then people should move up after fall of our 2L year because that is when the ones who stayed would have earned being a higher rank against the students they competed with at the time. Otherwise, it is like pretending 10-15 students were just never there, which is a lie.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby saffronleaf » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:47 pm

The same school that has done this advised its students to put their GPA and percentile as well as the GPA required for entry into the next percentile category on their resume. Supposedly this can make your resume better because it demonstrates to employers how close you were to being in the next percentile category.

So if an employer is reading ten resumes, lets say eight of them follow this advice. The student who inquired about transferring would have to put Percentile X = GPA Y, whereas all the other students would put Percentile X = GPA Z. Since: (a) there are far less students applying for transfers than not, and (b) the amount who get rejected from transfer schools is even less, most of the eight resumes will state Percentile X = GPA Z.

Employers will probably think that the person who put down Percentile X = GPA Y is being sloppy and made a mistake.

Yeah, I admit that this is a very specific concern that can be fixed by removing any indication of what the GPA for the next percentile category is altogether.

Still, it seems like another negative byproduct of authorizing and encouraging students to misrepresent their rank to employers and punishing students contemplating a transfer.
Last edited by saffronleaf on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:49 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
OP do you care if I out the school?

OP here...
Do I take it you know which school I am talking about? I'm talking with the school in the next few days, I'll see how that goes.

I've seen a lot of interesting comments, not going to have a chance to get back on until this evening. But my general opinion is that you earn your place based on who you competed with at the time. Once the transfers leave, then people should move up after fall of our 2L year because that is when the ones who stayed would have earned being a higher rank against the students they competed with at the time. Otherwise, it is like pretending 10-15 students were just never there, which is a lie.


Yea, I go to the school. As do some other people who have posted in this thread. I guess we'll defer to you, unless you don't care.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Once the transfers leave, then people should move up after fall of our 2L year because that is when the ones who stayed would have earned being a higher rank against the students they competed with at the time. Otherwise, it is like pretending 10-15 students were just never there, which is a lie.

But dude... why on earth does it matter? The transfers who left are gone, they're not competing with who's left. Why on earth should the ones who are left be ranked against the students who aren't there any more?

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby IAFG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:52 pm

beastienoise wrote:
In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

Can you explain what you think the harm is? Because so far I don't get it. If two of you claim to be #8 I assume the firms will think you're tied.

beastienoise
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:59 pm

IAFG wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

Can you explain what you think the harm is? Because so far I don't get it. If two of you claim to be #8 I assume the firms will think you're tied.


My argument was that either reranking does nothing to help the students who stay at the school, or it actively harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

Lets say there are 2 peer schools, one who reranks and one who doesn't. I would feel shitty if I were the #1 at the school who didn't rerank and got passed up for a job by the #14 turned #1 at the other school that did rerank. Desert Fox made the argument that firms aren't stupid and will just keep track of who reranks and who doesn't. My point in response was that reranking would then do nothing for your students since the whole point is to give employers an inflated sense of your students' ranks. So either a) reranking doesn't help get your students jobs or b) reranking helps your students get jobs at the expense of students at other schools who don't rerank.

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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby IAFG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:01 pm

beastienoise wrote:
IAFG wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

Can you explain what you think the harm is? Because so far I don't get it. If two of you claim to be #8 I assume the firms will think you're tied.


My argument was that either reranking does nothing to help the students who stay at the school, or it actively harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

Lets say there are 2 peer schools, one who reranks and one who doesn't. I would feel shitty if I were the #1 at the school who didn't rerank and got passed up for a job by the #14 turned #1 at the other school that did rerank. Desert Fox made the argument that firms aren't stupid and will just keep track of who reranks and who doesn't. My point in response was that reranking would then do nothing for your students since the whole point is to give employers an inflated sense of your students' ranks. So either a) reranking doesn't help get your students jobs or b) reranking helps your students get jobs at the expense of students at other schools who don't rerank.

If it did nothing, schools wouldn't grade inflate, but they do.

beastienoise
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Re: Re-Rankings at your law school - normal?

Postby beastienoise » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:02 pm

IAFG wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
IAFG wrote:
beastienoise wrote:
In other words, you can not simultaneously claim that this helps their students get jobs and that students of other schools who don't rerank aren't harmed.

Can you explain what you think the harm is? Because so far I don't get it. If two of you claim to be #8 I assume the firms will think you're tied.


My argument was that either reranking does nothing to help the students who stay at the school, or it actively harms students at other schools who don't rerank.

Lets say there are 2 peer schools, one who reranks and one who doesn't. I would feel shitty if I were the #1 at the school who didn't rerank and got passed up for a job by the #14 turned #1 at the other school that did rerank. Desert Fox made the argument that firms aren't stupid and will just keep track of who reranks and who doesn't. My point in response was that reranking would then do nothing for your students since the whole point is to give employers an inflated sense of your students' ranks. So either a) reranking doesn't help get your students jobs or b) reranking helps your students get jobs at the expense of students at other schools who don't rerank.

If it did nothing, schools wouldn't grade inflate, but they do.


That's fine, that's why I presented it as an either or, my initial argument was that yes, it does something, and that's why it harms students at other schools who don't rerank.




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