Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

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What should I do?

Stay at Cleveland Marshall
7
27%
Transfer to Ohio State
19
73%
 
Total votes: 26

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AVBucks4239
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Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:51 pm

I posted a poll last time without getting accepted yet, and people gave me the business for it (and rightfully so). So now that I've been accepted, here it is...

Current School (Cleveland State)
-Top 10%
-Graded onto Law Review
-Eligible to interview for all of the 30ish firms that come for OCI (only 14 students got OCI-firm hires last year, though)
-Have paid small firm clerk position lined up till end of 2L
-Have paid legal writing tutor position for 2L and probably 3L
-Have $12k scholarship, so COA is $9.8k
-COL = huge because I live by myself
-Estimated Total Debt: $55-60k

Desired Transfer School (Ohio State)
-Will be eligible to participate on Business Law Journal
-Cannot interview at their OCI, must mass mail (career services said they would help)
-No scholarship, tuition is $27k
-COL: significantly less because I'd have a roommate (ballpark of $4k less I'd imagine)
-Last but not least, I have a huge sentimental attachment to OSU that I can't really describe (Grandpa graduated 1948, mom in 1979, me in 2010), and would love to go there for two more years.
-Estimated Total Debt: $85-90k (because of family legacy, mom has committed to help me out somewhat if I transfer)

So, what to do? Short term it seems very smart to stay. But if I stayed up here and struck out at OCI, I'd be super pissed at passing up the opportunity to go to Ohio State.

But, with Ohio State comes no guarantees and roughly $30k more in debt. But, I'd love to have that diploma on my wall for the rest of my life.

law's cool
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby law's cool » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:24 pm

Sounds like you really want to go (and that you will go), but I voted stay because I think it is significant that you won't be able to participate in the school's OCI.

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sawwaverunner
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby sawwaverunner » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:33 pm

I would stay. Law review will stay with you for the rest of your career. Ohio state is certainly a better school, but I would guess that the same opportunities you would get from going to Ohio state would be similar to those you would get from having law review. Plus you would have less debt.

I don't know. I just think it would be a shame to take law review off your resume in order to just go to Ohio State. That's cool about your family legacy at Ohio State though.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:04 pm

Poll is 5-1 transfer, but both responses are stay. Pretty much describes how I feel about the situation.

RodneyBoonfield
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby RodneyBoonfield » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:09 pm

I think it all depends on how your school is regarded in your state. If top 10% + law review would at least make you competitive for a well paying mid law job, I would stay without thinking twice. On the other hand, if your school has abysmal stats like, say, Florida Coastal, I'd probably get the hell out. Its good that you realize that you are not guaranteed anything by transferring to OSU except for more debt.

Also, if you're worried about striking out at your current school's OCI, I would start hustling yesterday.
Last edited by RodneyBoonfield on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bankruptedcasino
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby bankruptedcasino » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:11 pm

Do you have connections to any law firms in Ohio?

I dunno, the fact that you wouldn't be able to participate in OCI would almost be a dealbreaker for me.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:35 pm

RodneyBoonfield wrote:I think it all depends on how your school is regarded in your state. If top 10% + law review would at least make you competitive for a well paying mid law job, I would stay without thinking twice. On the other hand, if your school has abysmal stats like, say, Florida Coastal, I'd probably get the hell out. Its good that you realize that you are not guaranteed anything by transferring to OSU except for more debt.

Also, if you're worried about striking out at your current school's OCI, I would start hustling yesterday.

Cleveland State has a pretty solid reputation in Cleveland, where I'd definitely be okay with practicing (Cleveland or Columbus is fine). It's obviously not a nationally reputable school, and thus most of the grads stay here in Cleveland. Meanwhile, Case Western and Ohio State grads have left to other markets, leaving Cleveland State with one of the strongest alumni networks in town.

Because of this, top 10% plus law review here doesn't guarantee me anything, but it puts me in great position for well paying mid law.
Last edited by AVBucks4239 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:36 pm

bankruptedcasino wrote:Do you have connections to any law firms in Ohio?

I dunno, the fact that you wouldn't be able to participate in OCI would almost be a dealbreaker for me.

Not really, but I'm from Ohio, attended Ohio State, and lived in Ohio all my life. It won't be a tough sell to anybody that I'm committed to practicing in Cleveland or Columbus.

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patrickd139
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:09 pm

Lack of OCI is the death-knell for transferring IMO.

Can you get more money out of Cleveland State?

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pinkcamellia
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby pinkcamellia » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:22 pm

You've got to stay put, my friend. Not being able to do OCI makes the extra debt unreasonable.

I know Ohio State is playing on your heartstrings bigtime, but you'll be happy you stayed in the long run.

L-girl
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby L-girl » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:35 pm

I would stay. I'm from Cleveland and most lawyers in this area are from CSU. So like you mentioned, there's a big alumni network. I would try to get more money out of CSU. I got a $11K increase on my scholarship as a 2L so it's possible that CSU would negotiate if you show them that you've been accepted to OSU. Also not participating in OCI and taking on even more debt... doesn't sound like a smart choice. If you want to practice in Cleveland only, I think CSU is the best choice in your position.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:53 pm

I figured a lot of people here would really waver about the OCI thing. To get into more detail...

Only 14 people got jobs at Cleveland State's OCI last year. That's one hire for every two firms that came to town. You'd think I put myself into a great position being top 10%, but almost every firm that comes here requires top 15% at the lowest. So I'm competing against all top 15%'s up here.

Furthermore, I'm well aware that Ohio State's OCI isn't much better. Per their career services, 14.9% of students got jobs out of OCI last year. Class size is roughly 225, so that means only 30-35 OSU students got OCI-firm jobs last year.

So, there is a possibility that I strike out at CSU's OCI, and I'm obviously already out of OSU's. If that happened, it's significantly better to be at Ohio State. I'd at least be able to get something. I'm good friends with several friends who graduated from NE Ohio law schools top quarter with Law Review and were clerking for $9/hour after graduating.

My point in all this is that nothing is guaranteed at either school.
Last edited by AVBucks4239 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:57 pm

What's my plan if I transfer?

Well, Cleveland State still doesn't know that I'm strongly considering transferring. I have nine bids currently in at CSU's OCI and should know if I have some interviews shortly. I don't feel like I'm gaming the system because I truly do not know if I am transferring yet.

That said, if I do make the decision to transfer, CSU will boot me from the school's OCI.

What are the odds I can contact the firms and be like, "Hey, yo dudes, you were gonna interview me at OCI anyway, so can we just schedule a non-OCI regular interview during the same time frame? I'd be glad to come back up to Cleveland for an interview because I really like your firm."

Is that even do-able?

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patrickd139
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:58 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:I figured a lot of people here would really waver about the OCI thing. To get into more detail...

Only 14 people got jobs at Cleveland State's OCI. That's one hire for every two firms that came to town. You'd think I put myself into a great position being top 10%, but almost every firm that comes here requires top 15% at the lowest. So I'm competing against all top 15%'s up here.

Furthermore, I'm well aware that Ohio State's OCI isn't much better. Per their career services, 14.9% of students got jobs out of OCI last year. Class size is roughly 225, so that means only 30-35 OSU students got OCI-firm jobs last year.

So, there is a possibility that I strike out at CSU's OCI, and I'm obviously already out of OSU's. If that happened, it's significantly better to be at Ohio State. I'd at least be able to get something. I'm good friends with several friends who graduated from NE Ohio law schools top quarter with Law Review and were clerking for $9/hour after graduating.

My point in all this is that nothing is guaranteed at either school.

The underlined is where your logic begins to fall apart.

You also forgot to mention how difficult it is to pay back tens of thousands of dollars (maybe even a hundred thousand or more, depending on your current debt situation including UG loans) when you don't have a job.

If you strike out at OCI, only one calculus matters: your life with all the OSU debt v. life without the OSU debt.

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catholicgirl
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby catholicgirl » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:08 pm

For whatever it's worth...I don't believe Cleveland or Columbus have that many SAs. How many people combined from OSU, CWRU, CSU, and other people from T-14s who want to come home are you going to be competing with during OCI?

Just stay at CSU. The no OCI thing is a deal breaker.

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Lawst
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby Lawst » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 pm

AVBucks4239 wrote:What's my plan if I transfer?

Well, Cleveland State still doesn't know that I'm strongly considering transferring. I have nine bids currently in at CSU's OCI and should know if I have some interviews shortly. I don't feel like I'm gaming the system because I truly do not know if I am transferring yet.

That said, if I do make the decision to transfer, CSU will boot me from the school's OCI.

What are the odds I can contact the firms and be like, "Hey, yo dudes, you were gonna interview me at OCI anyway, so can we just schedule a non-OCI regular interview during the same time frame? I'd be glad to come back up to Cleveland for an interview because I really like your firm."

Is that even do-able?


It's do-able - I know of someone who did it and it ended up in an SA and then an offer. In her case, she wasn't sure she was going to transfer until after all the OCI deadlines, so it wasn't a ethical quandary for her. But you should be able to do it. Also, I say transfer - you'll be happier to have gone to Ohio State. OCI isn't the only way to get jobs, not by far.

izzy2977
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby izzy2977 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:09 pm

Go to Ohio State which is a nationally respected school. I wouldn't go to Cleveland State on a full ride. If you want respect in the legal community and you want a respected degree for the rest of your life, go be a buckeye. If you want a tier 3 degree just to save a couple thousand dollars, go to Cleveland state.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:10 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
AVBucks4239 wrote:I figured a lot of people here would really waver about the OCI thing. To get into more detail...

Only 14 people got jobs at Cleveland State's OCI. That's one hire for every two firms that came to town. You'd think I put myself into a great position being top 10%, but almost every firm that comes here requires top 15% at the lowest. So I'm competing against all top 15%'s up here.

Furthermore, I'm well aware that Ohio State's OCI isn't much better. Per their career services, 14.9% of students got jobs out of OCI last year. Class size is roughly 225, so that means only 30-35 OSU students got OCI-firm jobs last year.

So, there is a possibility that I strike out at CSU's OCI, and I'm obviously already out of OSU's. If that happened, it's significantly better to be at Ohio State. I'd at least be able to get something. I'm good friends with several friends who graduated from NE Ohio law schools top quarter with Law Review and were clerking for $9/hour after graduating.

My point in all this is that nothing is guaranteed at either school.

The underlined is where your logic begins to fall apart.

You also forgot to mention how difficult it is to pay back tens of thousands of dollars (maybe even a hundred thousand or more, depending on your current debt situation including UG loans) when you don't have a job.

If you strike out at OCI, only one calculus matters: your life with all the OSU debt v. life without the OSU debt.

Put it this way: if it's October and I don't have an offer from anywhere, I'd much rather be at OSU than Cleveland State. Cleveland is the sole market Cleveland State places in, whereas I could at least get a look from everywhere in Ohio by going to Ohio State.

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pinkcamellia
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby pinkcamellia » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:12 pm

I have to agree with patrickd. While neither of these situations is ideal, top 10% and law review at CM is going to look a lot better if you end up mass mailing than a regular, unranked, untested OSU 2L.

9 bids + mass mail w/ good ranking + less debt > 0 bids + mass mail w/ no ranking + more debt

I know it sucks so badly to make this kind of choice. We're all homesick for our undergrad campus and our undergrad life. And Ohio State has a layman's weight that makes it seem much better than CM. But I worry that you'd get distracted in Columbus, and your grades might suffer. That'd be much worse as a transfer than if your grades sank a little at CM.

Also, you you really want to stick the extra debt on your mom? Just think about that.

You know I think you're a good guy. You need to make the right decision here, and you know what that is. Just accept it, go grab a beer, and celebrate the fact that you can make a logical, adult decision for your future.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:12 pm

catholicgirl wrote:For whatever it's worth...I don't believe Cleveland or Columbus have that many SAs. How many people combined from OSU, CWRU, CSU, and other people from T-14s who want to come home are you going to be competing with during OCI?

Just stay at CSU. The no OCI thing is a deal breaker.

Okay, I'm beating the living shit out of a dead horse here, but to be blunt, OCI is not the normal way to get employment from either of these schools. I feel like non T-14 posters/0L's don't quite grasp this is how it is for 80% of schools in this economy.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:13 pm

Neither option seems attractive unless you are determined to stay in Ohio. Without OCI, OSU offers you next to nothing, in my opinion.

OP: Any other options ?
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby AVBucks4239 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:19 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Any other options ?

Ohio State is the only school I would consider transferring to. Pink is the only one ITT who understands what I'm talking about here.

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taxnstuff
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby taxnstuff » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:36 pm

You obviously want to go to OSU, and since OCI is pretty much worthless as either school from what Ive gathered the question is whether an OSU degree is worth an extra 30k. If you have family support (safety net) I'd go to OSU. If I didn't I would still probably go to OSU because of the intangibles being worth 30k to me.

L-girl
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby L-girl » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:13 pm

Given the new information, I still stick with my previous answer. There's no guarantee from either school assuming you're only interested in big law. The only guarantee is more debt at OSU. But this is a personal decision that you need to make on your own. People on here shouldn't persuade or dissuade you from doing what's best for you. If you have a strong connection to OSU and will spend the next 2 years regretting now going there (as a result of which, your grades may suffer or you may come off as less than enthusiastic to cleveland employers) then you should just go to OSU. It sounds like that's what you want to do anyway...

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patrickd139
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Re: Need Some Help...Again (T3 to T1)

Postby patrickd139 » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:20 pm

Re-read the thread, still sticking with my initial suggestion.

Yes, I realize that OCI is not the "normal way" to get a job at either school. But it is the "normal" way to get a job at the types of firms that would justify the increase in student loans.

You mentioned that only roughly 15% of students at each law school get jobs through OCI. Fine. So it's not statistically the way people get jobs. But think critically about the jobs that the other 85% get. (assuming 100% employment at both. lawl.) Do you want to compete for those jobs with ~$100k in loans (or more, if your mom for some reason is unable to help out) or half that?

Full disclosure: I was faced with a similar choice. Top 5% at OU (T2) after 1L year, struck out at 1L OCI, had options to transfer (among other places) to GULC. Wasn't accepted until after the EIW deadline and couldn't participate. I ended up staying put and landed a midlaw job through OCI. And there weren't 15 firms who even participated in my school's OCI, much less 15 people who got hired that way.

Sure, the average GULC grad at median pwns the average OU grad at median. But that calculus is much different than the one you're facing. OCI is a BFD at schools like OSU and CM. People who strike out at OCI at those schools do not mass mail their way into Vault firms or nab clerkships their third year. No one is going to care where you went to law school after that first job, and I'm not at all convinced the prospects from OSU are that much greater at the top 1/3 (which is the highest you can assume you'll be) than the prospects at CM with LR and an established network of professors, friends and contacts. No matter how much better OSU might seem compared CM, it's not a school that's intrinsically worth transferring to. And even if it were, the answer might still be to stay put, no matter what your devotion to tOSU is.

I don't know you personally, but I'm 100% with pink on this one. Grab a drink, accept that CM (against all odds) is the right choice for you at this point, and do everything in your power to kill it during the job search.

Most of all, congrats on getting to where you are. I'd imagine in a job market like Cleveland, you're closer to where you want to be than you'd think.




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