Columbia v Penn v NYU

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Columbia, NYU, or Penn?

Columbia (no chance at law review, chance for secondary journal)
24
46%
NYU
13
25%
Penn
15
29%
 
Total votes: 52

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Certiorari
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Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Certiorari » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:13 am

So, I'm transferring for sure — no question there. What I'm wondering is of the three schools I've listed here, which should I choose? I'm in at Penn, and am still waiting to hear from Columbia and NYU, so this question is a bit premature, but given the ridiculously late date that some of these decisions are coming out, I figured I'd ask this question now, just in case. . .

One of the primary reasons I'm transferring is because I really, really want to work in the NYC market, hence why I applied to the three schools listed here (my old law school doesn't place much in NYC). Right out of the gate I would like to do Biglaw, but eventually I wouldn't mind breaking into academia. I would also be very interested in a federal clerkship.

Columbia would be the easy first choice, but unfortunately I would not be able to do Columbia Law Review (I did the write-on but didn't make it). At Columbia, however, there is still the opportunity to do a secondary journal.

Both NYU and Penn have write-on for transfer students for their flagship journals in the fall, which is great, especially since journal participation is virtually a must for higher level clerkships and academia. NYU is ranked higher, and has better placement into clerkships and academia (as far as I can tell), but I wonder if this is because Penn students self-select out of those fields. . . As far as write-on goes, I think there is a better chance to make the primary journal at Penn because the transfer class is smaller.

Geographically, I'd rather live in NYC to be closer to s/o and family, but Philly is close enough that I'd be okay there for a couple of years.

Any thoughts?

FlanSolo
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby FlanSolo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:04 am

Certiorari wrote:So, I'm transferring for sure — no question there. What I'm wondering is of the three schools I've listed here, which should I choose? I'm in at Penn, and am still waiting to hear from Columbia and NYU, so this question is a bit premature, but given the ridiculously late date that some of these decisions are coming out, I figured I'd ask this question now, just in case. . .

One of the primary reasons I'm transferring is because I really, really want to work in the NYC market, hence why I applied to the three schools listed here (my old law school doesn't place much in NYC). Right out of the gate I would like to do Biglaw, but eventually I wouldn't mind breaking into academia. I would also be very interested in a federal clerkship.

Columbia would be the easy first choice, but unfortunately I would not be able to do Columbia Law Review (I did the write-on but didn't make it). At Columbia, however, there is still the opportunity to do a secondary journal.

Both NYU and Penn have write-on for transfer students for their flagship journals in the fall, which is great, especially since journal participation is virtually a must for higher level clerkships and academia. NYU is ranked higher, and has better placement into clerkships and academia (as far as I can tell), but I wonder if this is because Penn students self-select out of those fields. . . As far as write-on goes, I think there is a better chance to make the primary journal at Penn because the transfer class is smaller.

Geographically, I'd rather live in NYC to be closer to s/o and family, but Philly is close enough that I'd be okay there for a couple of years.

Any thoughts?


I know this is stereotypical TLS risk-averse advice, but I'd probably remove LR possibilities from the equation, because no matter which you would pick, the odds of getting on the flagship journal are probably pretty low. Penn takes 20-25 transfers, and I think, 1-2 for LR, so from an "odds" perspective, you're looking at 5-10 percent. I imagine the odds are similar at NYU. Also, at CLS you can get on the journal by getting a note published 3L year - also not easy, but I'm not sure if that's more or less difficult than getting on LR as a transfer at either Penn or NYU.

Taking LR out of the picture then, I'd then narrow it to CLS and NYU because being near family and SO is always good, and you want to be in NYC anyway. Between CLS and NYU, I imagine that CLS has a slight edge in academia because it's an Ivy, but they are otherwise comparable for clerkships. (I'd also advise against making this decision based on possibility for academia, given the way that market is changing anyway, and the fact that you're not talking HYS here.) So, I'd make this decision based on where in NYC you want to live: the Village or Morningside Heights, or if you feel there are any cultural differences between the two schools that speak to you. They are probably exactly the same from a biglaw perspective - at least as a transfer.

mileslibertatis
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby mileslibertatis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:39 pm

I am interested in this as well. Although I haven't heard from Columbia, I have decided to choose Penn over NYU. I don't know how Columbia would change that decision. The transfer people at Penn told me everyone gets a journal, though only 2 out of 24 got flagship.

Much prefer Philadelphia for family and personal reasons.

FlanSolo
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby FlanSolo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:44 pm

mileslibertatis wrote:I am interested in this as well. Although I haven't heard from Columbia, I have decided to choose Penn over NYU. I don't know how Columbia would change that decision. The transfer people at Penn told me everyone gets a journal, though only 2 out of 24 got flagship.

Much prefer Philadelphia for family and personal reasons.


Yeah, now that I got into CLS, I'm starting to see it a bit differently (go figure). So to amend my prior post, one thing that was hilariously lacking was taking into account the ivy league prestige. As superficial as this is, I've heard from a number of people that CLS will help more outside of NYC just because people are familiar with Columbia University as a powerhouse. So if you're looking to leave NYC at some point, CLS is probably a marginally better choice.

Another thing to note is that CLS has a smaller class size, which can be helpful for firms that take X number of students from each school.

FlanSolo
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby FlanSolo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:49 pm

Also, per email I just for from CLS career services, NYU gets 50 bids and expects between 20-25 interviews; CLS gets 30 bids and expects between 15-20.

shock259
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby shock259 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:57 pm

Is the number of interviews indicative of success at OCI, though? I'd be curious to see the callback %'s for the schools. If it was easier to just increase the # of bids, it seems like CLS would just do that and reap the benefits.

I'm new to this OCI thing, though.

FlanSolo
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby FlanSolo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 2:00 pm

shock259 wrote:Is the number of interviews indicative of success at OCI, though? I'd be curious to see the callback %'s for the schools. If it was easier to just increase the # of bids, it seems like CLS would just do that and reap the benefits.

I'm new to this OCI thing, though.


Probably not. There was an interesting post here (link: http://www.adamsmithesq.com/2012/07/supply-demand-for-123ls/) explaining how this OCI system works at top schools. Basically, when there is no pre-select, firms wind up buying more interview slots than they otherwise would to make sure they can view enough candidates.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:21 pm

Due to your interest in academia & federal clerkships, Columbia should be the third choice here since you failed to make Columbia's law review but have a chance to write-on at Penn and NYU.

Additionally,Penn is easily the best choice at this point because it is the only one of the three law schools that has accepted you.

Younger Abstention
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Younger Abstention » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:35 pm

NYU and Penn generally accept less than 5% of transfers onto the flagship law review, so I'd hesitate to factor that too much into your decision. I'd probably go to Columbia, all things considered, provided you get in.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:04 pm

OP: Contact Penn's law review & ask how many (or what percentage of ) transfers make law review in a typical year.

In my opinion, a chance at making law review at a top 6 (NYU) or top 7 (Penn) law school is too much to give up for Columbia without law review since you have an interest in academia & federal clerkships.

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Certiorari
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Certiorari » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:12 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Contact Penn's law review & ask how many (or what percentage of ) transfers make law review in a typical year.

In my opinion, a chance at making law review at a top 6 (NYU) or top 7 (Penn) law school is too much to give up for Columbia without law review since you have an interest in academia & federal clerkships.


I don't know why that didn't dawn on me before, but that's a pretty good idea. I think I'll do that on Monday. Columbia is Columbia, but I agree that NYU or Penn with Journal/Review is probably better for clerking/academia than Columbia sans Journal/Review.

mileslibertatis
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby mileslibertatis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:15 pm

I already have that information. Last year, Penn's transfer class was 24 people and 2 of them made flagship. Everyone who wanted a journal got one otherwise.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:20 pm

Thanks, but the issue isn't how many transfers made law review at Penn, but how many of the 24 transfers who participated in the write-on competition made law review at Penn.

mileslibertatis
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby mileslibertatis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:27 pm

The guy I talked to made it sound like almost everyone did the competition. The Bluebooking is a two-day, 20-hour proctored marathon of death that is a single competition for all journals. I can ask him how many of the 24 participated.

The Law and Social Change journal is the only one that is not done through the competition.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:30 pm

Does the "write-on" competition for transfers to Penn consist only of a two day monitored Bluebook exercise, or is there an additional written component ? Thanks.

FlanSolo
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby FlanSolo » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:32 pm

mileslibertatis wrote: The Bluebooking is a two-day, 20-hour proctored marathon of death that is a single competition for all journals.


Honestly, this is one of the reasons I didn't go with Penn.

mileslibertatis
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby mileslibertatis » Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:38 pm

There's a writing component as well. It is not a legal writing exercise, though. It is more like writing an article for a website. You get a bunch of news sources and short stories and such and have to write something based on that.

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Certiorari
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Certiorari » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:04 pm

Thanks for that info, Miles. That'll save me from having to call them again!

As far as the 20 hour marathon of death, bring it; that'll be a stress-free cakewalk compared to the stress from this transfer cycle! Hell, some Bluebooking sounds relaxing right now!

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Wholigan
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Wholigan » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:07 pm

.
Last edited by Wholigan on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:53 pm

You made a representation (0-2), so,until you ask the law review editors, you won't know whether or not they'll share historical information as opposed to internet speculation.
Regardless, Penn is still your only actual option--and it's a great one.

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Wholigan
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Wholigan » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:07 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:You made a representation (0-2), so,until you ask the law review editors, you won't know whether or not they'll share historical information as opposed to internet speculation.
Regardless, Penn is still your only actual option--and it's a great one.


Well, its certainly worth asking, I'm just saying that from my own experience, they may not speculate ahead of the competition. From my perspective, the information is not based on internet speculation, although I understand how from your perspective, that's bascially what you have to take it as.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:11 pm

Your insight is quite valuable & appreciated. My impression, however, is that this thread undersells Penn--especially when it's OP's only actual option & includes a shot at writing on to Penn's law review.

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Wholigan
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Wholigan » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:19 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Your insight is quite valuable & appreciated. My impression, however, is that this thread undersells Penn--especially when it's OP's only actual option & includes a shot at writing on to Penn's law review.


I agree with you there. If OP wants advice based in part on chances at academia, which is an incredible long shot from any school not named Yale, it doesn't really make sense to tell him not to pay attention to LR since the chances are low, as some have in this thread. If that's what he really wants, he's going to have to take some chances. He is going to be able to get NYC biglaw from any of the three schools, but I think LR at Penn > no LR from CLS for academia. I would imagine, however, that psychologically it could set OP up for significant disappointment before 2L classes even start if LR is the primary factor in his decision.

Xferr
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby Xferr » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:39 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Your insight is quite valuable & appreciated. My impression, however, is that this thread undersells Penn--especially when it's OP's only actual option & includes a shot at writing on to Penn's law review.


If you want to go to Columbia at this point though, you need to be ready to pull the trigger as soon as they admit you. If he doesn't get in, then this thread is pointless because there's no decision to be made. I'm not sure what Columbia's lack of a response as of now has to do with evaluating the two if he does get in.

ReversedAndRemanded
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Re: Columbia v Penn v NYU

Postby ReversedAndRemanded » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:42 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:You made a representation (0-2), so,until you ask the law review editors, you won't know whether or not they'll share historical information as opposed to internet speculation.
Regardless, Penn is still your only actual option--and it's a great one.


Penn Law Review Exec (and transfer) here. Just to put the internet speculation to rest: the Law Review will accept up to 2 transfer students whose combined Essay+Edit scores place them within the top 22 of the rising 2Ls' combined Essay+Edit scores.

So depending on how well (or not well) the transfers do, the Law Review will accept 0, 1, or 2 transfers.

Also, last year, every transfer student participated the writing competition except for those who chose to take part in the Journal of Law and Social Change's alternative application. And every transfer who participated in the writing competition was accepted onto a journal.




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