Leaving t4?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:56 pm

fascinatingnot wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
fascinatingnot wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:from t4, worth the tranfer to t50 imo. no shot hys though


I must disagree.

Fact: Unless a T14 (give or take), an average student is substantially more likely not to get a big law job than get a big law job...so why transfer for an unimproved situation.

I've always understood why t14 students have a belief in the superiority of their schools... but a non t14 should have no such beliefs, anything outside the t14 is on the same playing field. A kid the top five of a T4 is most likely going to get a better job than all average students outside the t14, and of the remaining t50, better or equal jobs than 90% of the students.

What people don't understand is there really isn't that much of a difference between top students at T4, 3, 2, and lower ranked T1's. The real difference in the schools is that the average students at the higher ranked schools are better, and most employers understand this.

clown post bro.


Fair enough, but would you care to articulate?

Very simple math...top 2-3 percent at T4 has very substantial shot at getting big law and at least a job at a respected firm v. Does Gulc even produce 50 percent in biglaw? Why transfer to a T50 (50-17) where they place at most 10-20 percent in big law, when you are already in a fifty/fifty position? And if you are a top 1%, u are a lock unless you lack majorly in other humanly areas.

To take on an extra 100K to say I went to GULC is not my cup of tea, but I get the rational...but to put on that same debt to say I went to Minnesota or Tulane is laughable...I'm not laughing at the institutions itself, but to think that a transfer up would even remotely be better is sad


edit: first, tell me more about this: "top 2-3 percent at T4 has very substantial shot at getting big law" cuz i disagree.

it sounds like you want us to agree with you, and tell you that t4 is the way to go.
I wont take the time to try and articulate why t14 are worth it, there are plenty of stickys on that. but i will say this, it does depend on you career path and what you want for urself.
- warning: big generalization coming:: If you want a shot at the biggest cases, and top firms transfer. If you want to do local probate or personal injury, stay at ur school.

IsTheFatLadySinging
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby IsTheFatLadySinging » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:12 pm

Thought I'd jump in here. Currently at a TTTT and ranked 1%.

I want biglaw. There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).

I was admitted to GULC. Waiting on the majority of the rest of the t14.

Current t4 offered me 80% scholarship for next year.

Recommendations on this situation?

opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:14 pm

IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:Thought I'd jump in here. Currently at a TTTT and ranked 1%.

I want biglaw. There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).

I was admitted to GULC. Waiting on the majority of the rest of the t14.

Current t4 offered me 80% scholarship for next year.

Recommendations on this situation?


Id say 1) what "BigLaw" and 2) if you want BigLaw transfer. IMO.

Also, Id ask ur current school what they wil do to get u the best 2L job etc etc. id also try to get that 80% to a full ride depending on ur rank.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:20 pm

IsTheFatLadySinging wrote: Currently at a TTTT....
There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).



This is basically the reality at some TTTTs from what I understand. In other words, although the posters standing up for staying at a TTTT when very close to the top of the class make some good points (save lots of money, prob won't get biglaw at new school in many cases), the idea that biglaw--or even a decent small firm job--is certain even very close to the top at some of these schools is not necessarily justified. But on the other hand, things can work out, and it is certainly a way better place to be than median or even top 20% or top 10% at some of these schools. And in some cases it will work out better than transferring, but I'm imagine plenty of times the transfer would have paid off in the long-term, especially if you are talking TTTT to T14, and if you didn't have full-scholly at old school (or necessarily want to practice right nearby).
Last edited by Lawquacious on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

IsTheFatLadySinging
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby IsTheFatLadySinging » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:21 pm

I want to practice Corporate/Litigation/Securities



In terms of increasing scholarship. They said you're good, but not that good to increase scholarship.

And for 2L job they offered me an internship at the SEC. Nothing in terms of SA position if that is what you meant. Said I'd likely be editor in chief of LR.
Last edited by IsTheFatLadySinging on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:21 pm

opX wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:Thought I'd jump in here. Currently at a TTTT and ranked 1%.

I want biglaw. There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).

I was admitted to GULC. Waiting on the majority of the rest of the t14.

Current t4 offered me 80% scholarship for next year.

Recommendations on this situation?


Id say 1) what "BigLaw" and 2) if you want BigLaw transfer. IMO.

Also, Id ask ur current school what they wil do to get u the best 2L job etc etc. id also try to get that 80% to a full ride depending on ur rank.



Dude--normally bad spelling and grammar doesn't bother me, but fuck.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 pm

IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:I want to practice Corporate/Litigation/Securities



In terms of increasing scholarship. They said you're good, but not that good to increase scholarship.

And for 2L job they offered me an internship at the SEC. Nothing in terms of SA position if that is what you meant. Said I'd likely be editor in chief of LR.



I'd go to Georgetown.

IsTheFatLadySinging
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby IsTheFatLadySinging » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:29 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:I want to practice Corporate/Litigation/Securities



In terms of increasing scholarship. They said you're good, but not that good to increase scholarship.

And for 2L job they offered me an internship at the SEC. Nothing in terms of SA position if that is what you meant. Said I'd likely be editor in chief of LR.



I'd go to Georgetown.


Thank you for the advice. Hypothetically speaking, if I strike out at OCI as a transfer at Gtown, am I completely/royally screwed? I am solid at interviews, but I understand a biglaw SA would be a crapshoot for a transfer.

opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:30 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
opX wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:Thought I'd jump in here. Currently at a TTTT and ranked 1%.

I want biglaw. There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).

I was admitted to GULC. Waiting on the majority of the rest of the t14.

Current t4 offered me 80% scholarship for next year.

Recommendations on this situation?


Id say 1) what "BigLaw" and 2) if you want BigLaw transfer. IMO.

Also, Id ask ur current school what they wil do to get u the best 2L job etc etc. id also try to get that 80% to a full ride depending on ur rank.



Dude--normally bad spelling and grammar doesn't bother me, but fuck.


are you serious? :roll:

opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:32 pm

IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
Thank you for the advice. Hypothetically speaking, if I strike out at OCI as a transfer at Gtown, am I completely/royally screwed? I am solid at interviews, but I understand a biglaw SA would be a crapshoot for a transfer.


Check into GULC's other interview programs, and, its just an isolated story, but I know people who got legit jobs thru resume collect 2L and 3l

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:34 pm

IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:I want to practice Corporate/Litigation/Securities



In terms of increasing scholarship. They said you're good, but not that good to increase scholarship.

And for 2L job they offered me an internship at the SEC. Nothing in terms of SA position if that is what you meant. Said I'd likely be editor in chief of LR.



I'd go to Georgetown.


Thank you for the advice. Hypothetically speaking, if I strike out at OCI as a transfer at Gtown, am I completely/royally screwed? I am solid at interviews, but I understand a biglaw SA would be a crapshoot for a transfer.


Not necessarily any more screwed in the big picture than if you stay in my opinion, but you would have more debt. You def aren't guaranteed--by a long shot--to get biglaw if you transfer to GULC. But even if you do strike out at OCI, if you are persistent in apps I think you will get small firm job eventually or have other options. But yeah, it's a risk, and if you are happy with the city you are in and want to stay there then probably don't transfer actually.

EDIT: If you do decide to transfer bid ridiculously conservatively imo.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:34 pm

opX wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
opX wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:Thought I'd jump in here. Currently at a TTTT and ranked 1%.

I want biglaw. There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).

I was admitted to GULC. Waiting on the majority of the rest of the t14.

Current t4 offered me 80% scholarship for next year.

Recommendations on this situation?


Id say 1) what "BigLaw" and 2) if you want BigLaw transfer. IMO.

Also, Id ask ur current school what they wil do to get u the best 2L job etc etc. id also try to get that 80% to a full ride depending on ur rank.



Dude--normally bad spelling and grammar doesn't bother me, but fuck.


are you serious? :roll:


Yep.

On another note, sorry for thread highjack OP--it sounds like in your scenario (OP) you should stay put. Maybe for other poster too. I know for me I just don't see myself regretting transferring from a TTTT to a T14 or even most T1 schools, but then again I've never been at the top of class at any school and haven't had to pay off the crushing debt yet.

IsTheFatLadySinging
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby IsTheFatLadySinging » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:38 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:I want to practice Corporate/Litigation/Securities



In terms of increasing scholarship. They said you're good, but not that good to increase scholarship.

And for 2L job they offered me an internship at the SEC. Nothing in terms of SA position if that is what you meant. Said I'd likely be editor in chief of LR.



I'd go to Georgetown.


Thank you for the advice. Hypothetically speaking, if I strike out at OCI as a transfer at Gtown, am I completely/royally screwed? I am solid at interviews, but I understand a biglaw SA would be a crapshoot for a transfer.


Not necessarily any more screwed in the big picture than if you stay in my opinion, but you would have more debt. You def aren't guaranteed--by a long shot--to get biglaw if you transfer to GULC. But even if you do strike out at OCI, if you are persistent in apps I think you will get small firm job eventually or have other options. But yeah, it's a risk, and if you are happy with the city you are in and want to stay there then probably don't transfer actually.


I am indifferent about where I currently am, and I do not care where I go. I want to work big law anywhere.

opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:46 pm

transfer then. imo go for it.

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ryanmot
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby ryanmot » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:47 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote: Currently at a TTTT....
There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).



This is basically the reality at some TTTTs from what I understand. In other words, although the posters standing up for staying at a TTTT when very close to the top of the class make some good points (save lots of money, prob won't get biglaw at new school in many cases), the idea that biglaw--or even a decent small firm job--is certain even very close to the top at some of these schools is not necessarily justified. But on the other hand, things can work out, and it is certainly a way better place to be than median or even top 20% or top 10% at some of these schools. And in some cases it will work out better than transferring, but I'm imagine plenty of times the transfer would have paid off in the long-term, especially if you are talking TTTT to T14, and if you didn't have full-scholly at old school (or necessarily want to practice right nearby).



Depends on the TTTT to be frank. In Boston for example, Suffolk law will have about 20 big firms come, and about 10-15 students get positions (although a few will be diversity hires so it might not be #1 ranked to #10-15 ranked). While at New England Law, almost no firms (other than Bingham, who represents the school) show up. Both are TTTT but are very different. Suffolk actually has more partners in Boston big law than Northeastern. (I went to Northeastern before transferring).

So it's very fact specific. Suffolk won't get you a ticket outside of Boston generally, but if you are tied to the area (relationship, family, like the city) then it doesn't matter too much.

I would never advise someone to actually go to Suffolk, because the price, and the chance that you're in the OP's position is so slim. But things do change if you are at the top of the class. It's just so unlikely that it's not worth the risk to attend and take a run at 1L. But OP won the hunger games so to speak. If he was 8 or 9 spots lower, I would tell him/her to scram.

Just my two cents.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:57 pm

IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
I am indifferent about where I currently am, and I do not care where I go. I want to work big law anywhere.



If biglaw is your only goal, not sure the transfer is going to help a ton. Recruiters will still look at your old school, and if they don't hire from there you may be out of luck. But some might give you a break OTOH. Also, biglaw hires you where you have ties in most cases; so it is where you are now that you would have the best shot of getting hired at, although you could interview for that city through GULC most likely.

It is probably more intangibles such as social status that a top school offers a transfer who strikes out--this may not be worth paying for, but especially if you are talking about going from a TTTT to a T14 these intangible factors are not necessarily to be scoffed at and can pay dividends in certain contexts. Looking at the track record of your current TTTT with biglaw it sounds like you face risk if you stay.

All I said is that if it were me I would go. But this is a decision you have to weigh and no one can say with absolute certainty what the best choice is. Keep seeking the answers though, especially if you can find ppl who transferred from your school to T14 last year.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Lawquacious » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:58 pm

ryanmot wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote: Currently at a TTTT....
There are two alumni from my current school practicing biglaw (one was a valedictorian and the other landed a clerkship for state supreme court justice).



This is basically the reality at some TTTTs from what I understand. In other words, although the posters standing up for staying at a TTTT when very close to the top of the class make some good points (save lots of money, prob won't get biglaw at new school in many cases), the idea that biglaw--or even a decent small firm job--is certain even very close to the top at some of these schools is not necessarily justified. But on the other hand, things can work out, and it is certainly a way better place to be than median or even top 20% or top 10% at some of these schools. And in some cases it will work out better than transferring, but I'm imagine plenty of times the transfer would have paid off in the long-term, especially if you are talking TTTT to T14, and if you didn't have full-scholly at old school (or necessarily want to practice right nearby).



Depends on the TTTT to be frank. In Boston for example, Suffolk law will have about 20 big firms come, and about 10-15 students get positions (although a few will be diversity hires so it might not be #1 ranked to #10-15 ranked). While at New England Law, almost no firms (other than Bingham, who represents the school) show up. Both are TTTT but are very different. Suffolk actually has more partners in Boston big law than Northeastern. (I went to Northeastern before transferring).

So it's very fact specific. Suffolk won't get you a ticket outside of Boston generally, but if you are tied to the area (relationship, family, like the city) then it doesn't matter too much.

I would never advise someone to actually go to Suffolk, because the price, and the chance that you're in the OP's position is so slim. But things do change if you are at the top of the class. It's just so unlikely that it's not worth the risk to attend and take a run at 1L. But OP won the hunger games so to speak. If he was 8 or 9 spots lower, I would tell him/her to scram.

Just my two cents.


This is good advice.

fascinatingnot
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby fascinatingnot » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:44 am

I must disagree.

Fact: Unless a T14 (give or take), an average student is substantially more likely not to get a big law job than get a big law job...so why transfer for an unimproved situation.

I've always understood why t14 students have a belief in the superiority of their schools... but a non t14 should have no such beliefs, anything outside the t14 is on the same playing field. A kid the top five of a T4 is most likely going to get a better job than all average students outside the t14, and of the remaining t50, better or equal jobs than 90% of the students.

What people don't understand is there really isn't that much of a difference between top students at T4, 3, 2, and lower ranked T1's. The real difference in the schools is that the average students at the higher ranked schools are better, and most employers understand this.[/quote]
clown post bro.[/quote]

Fair enough, but would you care to articulate?

Very simple math...top 2-3 percent at T4 has very substantial shot at getting big law and at least a job at a respected firm v. Does Gulc even produce 50 percent in biglaw? Why transfer to a T50 (50-17) where they place at most 10-20 percent in big law, when you are already in a fifty/fifty position? And if you are a top 1%, u are a lock unless you lack majorly in other humanly areas.

To take on an extra 100K to say I went to GULC is not my cup of tea, but I get the rational...but to put on that same debt to say I went to Minnesota or Tulane is laughable...I'm not laughing at the institutions itself, but to think that a transfer up would even remotely be better is sad[/quote]

edit: first, tell me more about this: "top 2-3 percent at T4 has very substantial shot at getting big law" cuz i disagree.

it sounds like you want us to agree with you, and tell you that t4 is the way to go.
I wont take the time to try and articulate why t14 are worth it, there are plenty of stickys on that. but i will say this, it does depend on you career path and what you want for urself.
- warning: big generalization coming:: If you want a shot at the biggest cases, and top firms transfer. If you want to do local probate or personal injury, stay at ur school.[/quote]

If you are top one percent u are pretty much guaranteed biglaw regardless of the school you go to, I don't have evidence other than word of mouth from kids at my school who claim that many of the top students are making out six figures coming out, but then again neither do you (at least give me credit, its not like I said top 5-10 percent get biglaw, 2-3 percent is like 4-7 people, but we can agree to disagree...)
honestly, what I take offense to is your generalization about the big cases only involving the biglaw firms, and then you take a cheap shot over personal injury...winning millions of dollars for plaintiffs is not a big case? i realize that it is much more riskier and the odds are against you, but partners at successful personal injury firms make more than partners at biglaw firms
not to mention, class actions like the one in against Walmart consisted of a firm of a few people who busted Walmart for 150million (although, it was most likely a big law firm that represented wal mart and lost)

Fark-o-vision
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:33 am

.

Xferr
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby Xferr » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:19 am

fascinatingnot wrote:If you are top one percent u are pretty much guaranteed biglaw regardless of the school you go to, I don't have evidence other than word of mouth from kids at my school who claim that many of the top students are making out six figures coming out, but then again neither do you (at least give me credit, its not like I said top 5-10 percent get biglaw, 2-3 percent is like 4-7 people, but we can agree to disagree...)


That's not even close to true. Even at my former law school, which is T2, only one student in the past 5 or so years has gotten a biglaw job. It absolutely depends on the school itself (not just its rank) as to whether they can put any amount of students in biglaw on a year-to-year basis.

ItsMyTimeBoston
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby ItsMyTimeBoston » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:26 am

ryanmot wrote:
ItsMyTimeBoston wrote:Additionally, OP finished first in his section, and section rank is what the big firms in Boston look at when evaluating Suffolk students. With a number 1 section rank + LR, OP should have no problem landing any job in Boston, unless he/she is a horrible interviewer.

OP - last year the person ranked number one in one of the sections transferred to Harvard. You have a good chance of getting into Harvard, Columbia or NYU.


Out of curiosity, why is that? What does section rank matter? And how do we know the OP wasn't second in his/her section and still top 1%?


Section rank matters, because in all reality (at Suffolk at least) you are only taking classes and being graded by the same professors as people in your section. Only people who finish first in their section are offered a stop on law review--the rest of us find out on July 15th.

concurrent fork
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby concurrent fork » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:07 pm

opX wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
IsTheFatLadySinging wrote:
Thank you for the advice. Hypothetically speaking, if I strike out at OCI as a transfer at Gtown, am I completely/royally screwed? I am solid at interviews, but I understand a biglaw SA would be a crapshoot for a transfer.


Check into GULC's other interview programs, and, its just an isolated story, but I know people who got legit jobs thru resume collect 2L and 3l

Again, this isn't the cut-and-dry case that the posters ITT make it out to be.

You have an 80% scholarship, LR and SEC internship lined up. You probably won't get biglaw if you stay, but you'll graduate with low debt. You'll be able to pay off your loans in a reasonable time no matter what you do.

If you transfer to GULC you take on at least another 100k in debt, probably more, plus COL difference. I don't know the % of GULC transfers that land biglaw, but I know it's not very high (might not even be 50%). If you end up as one of those people, great -- the move paid off. But if you strike out, you now took on a massive amount of debt for increased 3L job prospects. You will most likely be looking at $50k jobs, which could mean 15 years to pay off your loans. Worst case scenario you graduate with nothing (something like 15% of GULC graduates w/o long-term employment).

opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:20 pm

Xferr wrote:
fascinatingnot wrote:If you are top one percent u are pretty much guaranteed biglaw regardless of the school you go to, I don't have evidence other than word of mouth from kids at my school who claim that many of the top students are making out six figures coming out, but then again neither do you (at least give me credit, its not like I said top 5-10 percent get biglaw, 2-3 percent is like 4-7 people, but we can agree to disagree...)


That's not even close to true. Even at my former law school, which is T2, only one student in the past 5 or so years has gotten a biglaw job. It absolutely depends on the school itself (not just its rank) as to whether they can put any amount of students in biglaw on a year-to-year basis.


+1

opX
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby opX » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:24 pm

fascinatingnot wrote:honestly, what I take offense to is your generalization about the big cases only involving the biglaw firms, and then you take a cheap shot over personal injury...winning millions of dollars for plaintiffs is not a big case? i realize that it is much more riskier and the odds are against you, but partners at successful personal injury firms make more than partners at biglaw firms
not to mention, class actions like the one in against Walmart consisted of a firm of a few people who busted Walmart for 150million (although, it was most likely a big law firm that represented wal mart and lost)


You are assuming things, that I did not say.
First off, I did not say not big cases only involve biglaw firms.
Second, I made no cheap shot at personal injury or anything.
Third, I even prefaced the comment by saying "warning big generalization coming"

pballer
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Re: Leaving t4?

Postby pballer » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:30 pm

this thread is going places




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