Leaving t4? Forum

3ThrowAway99 · Post by **3ThrowAway99** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:26 pm

from t4, worth the tranfer to t50 imo. no shot hys though

EDIT: this was not good advice given your situation. My apologies.

heeloftar · Post by **heeloftar** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:31 pm

quesniot wrote:Hi,

I'm currently at Suffolk University Law School. I finished in the top 5 in the class of over 300 hundred students, and booked more than half of the courses I took. I have already graded onto law review. My goal is to be at a big law firm in Boston that has a strong litigation practice. My applications to a variety of schools have been sent out (all the usuals). Do you think leaving my rank and scholarship money is worth it for anything less than HYS? Will transferring to NYU, Columbia or UChicago give me opportunities in Boston that my current rank will not? And if so... are the opportunities worth taking about 80k in loans at those schools?

I have a difficult decision ahead and I would appreciate any comments or advice... thanks in advance!

Most transfer deadlines are already past, and you didn't have much of a shot at HYSCCN anyways. See if you can contact BU/BC and talk with their admissions department.

quesniot · Post by **quesniot** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:32 pm

heeloftar · Post by **heeloftar** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:41 pm

quesniot wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:from t4, worth the tranfer to t50 imo. no shot hys though

Why is it worth it? Especially when we're talking about 80k of debt in two years if I pull the trigger and transfer.. Just looking for an explanation and reasoning as well.

heeloftar wrote:
quesniot wrote:Hi,

I'm currently at Suffolk University Law School. I finished in the top 5 in the class of over 300 hundred students, and booked more than half of the courses I took. I have already graded onto law review. My goal is to be at a big law firm in Boston that has a strong litigation practice. My applications to a variety of schools have been sent out (all the usuals). Do you think leaving my rank and scholarship money is worth it for anything less than HYS? Will transferring to NYU, Columbia or UChicago give me opportunities in Boston that my current rank will not? And if so... are the opportunities worth taking about 80k in loans at those schools?

I have a difficult decision ahead and I would appreciate any comments or advice... thanks in advance!
Most transfer deadlines are already past, and you didn't have much of a shot at HYSCCN anyways. See if you can contact BU/BC and talk with their admissions department.

My apps have all been sent into those schools and I am waiting. It's more whether if I get in should I go... for some its obvious, for others not so much

--LinkRemoved--

If you're sure you can get a job from Suffolk, go for it, but with numbers like 30% of graduates unemployed and ~6% at firms with 50+ attorneys, you're going to have to keep killing it with grades and network your ass off to have a chance at anything decent. However, if you are on scholly and have decent connections and want to work in MA, then it might make the decision a bit harder.

ETA: the reason I said not much chance at HYSCCN is that top 1-2% people from T25 schools are borderline to get into HYS, Chicago really only dips into the TTT/TTTT range for Chicago-area students (from what I have seen), with Columbia/NYU being longshots at best for you. The thread stickied at the top is the conventional widsom, which says that you probably need to be top 1% at your school to have much of a chance at T10.

quesniot · Post by **quesniot** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:43 pm

fascinatingnot · Post by **fascinatingnot** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:10 am

Lawquacious wrote:from t4, worth the tranfer to t50 imo. no shot hys though

I must disagree.

Fact: Unless a T14 (give or take), an average student is substantially more likely not to get a big law job than get a big law job...so why transfer for an unimproved situation.

I've always understood why t14 students have a belief in the superiority of their schools... but a non t14 should have no such beliefs, anything outside the t14 is on the same playing field. A kid the top five of a T4 is most likely going to get a better job than all average students outside the t14, and of the remaining t50, better or equal jobs than 90% of the students.

What people don't understand is there really isn't that much of a difference between top students at T4, 3, 2, and lower ranked T1's. The real difference in the schools is that the average students at the higher ranked schools are better, and most employers understand this.

3ThrowAway99 · Post by **3ThrowAway99** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:16 am

3ThrowAway99 · Post by **3ThrowAway99** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:20 am

anonymouse2828 · Post by **anonymouse2828** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:33 am

An article on bankrate.com also rated a degree from a TTTT as one of the worse financial decisions, next to a masters in fine arts. Unfortunately, to most firms, it's a big fish in a tiny pond vs. average fish in a large pond scenario. The average fish in the large pond is still likely to be a more desirable choice for big law and gov't firms. That's not to say that the retention rate is high, but at least the firm can use the school to market their legal team.

Think about it, when a company is hiring a law firm, "our team consists of lawyers from unknown school 1, unknown school 2, and unknown school 3," or "our team consists of lawyers from HYS/tier 1 schools." Which do you think is the better marketing tool?

If you're a top student at a TTTT, chances are that if you bust your ass as a 2L in a T1 school, then you're likely to do very well for yourself. The education is about the same for core subjects, but you'll usually have a lot more electives and non-class experiences open to you such as clinics and whatnot. Lastly, the networking opportunities available are much higher at better ranked schools.

If I don't get any better offers, I'll be going from a full ride at a TTTT to GWU. I don't mind the extra 80-100k debt since my job prospects will greatly be improved, the network I can build w/ alumni and fellow students will be much more beneficial, and overall, it'll just open more doors.

My theory above is gradually becoming more solidified as I network w/ big law associates and partners during my internship this summer, and I see the way certain Sr. associates and hiring directors gladly rub shoulders w/ T1 students, while sort of having this "why are you talking to me" attitude towards TT or below students.

TTRansfer · Post by **TTRansfer** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:23 am

Did you send in apps to BU and BC? I would have definitely sent them in there.

Lasers · Post by **Lasers** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:16 am

transfer. i can't see why you shouldn't if you look at the big picture/long run.

if you strike out at a t4, it will be damn near impossible to get a decent job. if you strike out at OCI at a good tier 1 school, you'll at least still have a chance at meaningful employment afterward, especially in the long run. there will be more connections/alumni, networking opportunities, and obviously a much higher level of recognition and prestige.

it may be expensive, but besides that, you can only benefit from transferring from a t4.

fascinatingnot · Post by **fascinatingnot** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:17 am

Lawquacious wrote:
fascinatingnot wrote:
What people don't understand is there really isn't that much of a difference between top students at T4, 3, 2, and lower ranked T1's. .

Yeah, T14ish is credited for clear difference; the rest of T1 is less certainly better than top of class at T4, but I think at least as good position even for way more debt. T4 sucks hard unless you essentially already have job lined up with family or want to stay in the town or city your T4 is in for the rest of your life for sure. Not saying there aren't exceptions, but that type of school can be a curse in certain ways.

And actually, there is a pretty big diff between the student bodies at a T4 v. T1. Even between a T30-50 v. T20 school there is a tangible diff in the student body quality imo. But not saying that nec translates to jobs.

Agreed, but its not a curse if you are a top student...the idea that there are absolute no good jobs out there for a T4 are ridiculous. there are thousands upon thousands of alumni, and you are telling me that none of those lawyers are successful and want to hire from that school?
OP should be able to get a full ride at his school, so unless can get into a t14, why even try other schools?
The only thing he would gain from adding onto the debt would be to no longer feel ashamed of the name of his school.

You guys tell me...I'm first in my t4 class have a full ride and stipend (not to mention I declined significant scholly's at WUSTL and Indiana), I'm very confident I will get a biglaw offer, but don't want one...u think I'm better off at WUSTL/ GW, when all I want is a solid job and I want to enjoy the money I make the first ten years out, which is why I need to be debt free? I'm sorry this is laughable...

People talk up non-t14 schools because they are in them...

And whoever said a t4 chains you to your school's region, guess what? this applies to all schools essentially outside the t10.

concurrent fork · Post by **concurrent fork** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:30 am

I don't know why people on TLS urge others to leave behind scholarships for non-T14 schools. This rarely makes sense unless you hate your current market or need to leave for personal reasons.

Money aside, you probably have a better chance at biglaw (though still slim) as a top 1% student at Suffolk than as a transfer into BC/BU.

ryanmot · Post by **ryanmot** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:19 pm

I saw this, and had to post. I have to say that some of the advice given here has been pretty misinformed. The student who posted this is in the Top 1% of his class and booked more than half of them! Plus, he wants to practice law in Boston. I don't know what his resume looks like, but he'll have a decent shot at biglaw in Boston. Look up any biglaw firm in Boston (Ropes, Bingham, Mintz, Choate, Goodwin etc.), they all have Associates from Suffolk from the last few years. Suffolk places about ten students a year in biglaw. This student is clearly in the mix for that. To advise him to go to BU/BC where I know of students in the top 10% who struck out is a little risky. Especially with the debt he'll accumulate. To advise him to go to NYU or Columbia is more rational for his job prospects, but does it really increase his chances in the Boston job market? He is going to get interviews with most of the big firms in Boston. Look: http://www.law.suffolk.edu/offices/care ... ules12.pdf Does not mean he'll land anything, but there are no guarantees if he transfers anyway. The only guarantee is paying more like $100,000 in debt.

If your options are only BC or BU, then stay. Being in the top 5 at Suffolk will give you all the opportunities at OCI that BU or BC will give you. Maybe BU/BC give you a few more, but you give up your grades and the few more aren't worth the $100,000. There are plenty of Suffolk grads in smaller and mid sized firms in Boston, and if you finish 2L and 3L like you did 1L, and aren't a horrible interviewer, you'll be fine. I mean, honestly, you booked more than half your classes. You'd probably have done very well at BU/BC to.

If you were top 5% or even if you said only in the top 15 in the school, I'd say run for BC/BU. But you are in the top 5 of your class, and within the range of students who will land SA jobs from Suffolk this year. If you stay or go, you'll still have to do well in the interviews and look good. I don't see how you can leave a situation where I am sure you'll be getting close to a full ride if not already. Congratulations on a great year, and begin preparing for your interviews.

concurrent fork · Post by **concurrent fork** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:47 pm

ryanmot wrote:I saw this, and had to post. I have to say that some of the advice given here has been pretty misinformed. The student who posted this is in the Top 1% of his class and booked more than half of them! Plus, he wants to practice law in Boston. I don't know what his resume looks like, but he'll have a decent shot at biglaw in Boston. Look up any biglaw firm in Boston (Ropes, Bingham, Mintz, Choate, Goodwin etc.), they all have Associates from Suffolk from the last few years. Suffolk places about ten students a year in biglaw. This student is clearly in the mix for that. To advise him to go to BU/BC where I know of students in the top 10% who struck out is a little risky. Especially with the debt he'll accumulate. To advise him to go to NYU or Columbia is more rational for his job prospects, but does it really increase his chances in the Boston job market? He is going to get interviews with most of the big firms in Boston. Look: http://www.law.suffolk.edu/offices/care ... ules12.pdf Does not mean he'll land anything, but there are no guarantees if he transfers anyway. The only guarantee is paying more like $100,000 in debt.

If your options are only BC or BU, then stay. Being in the top 5 at Suffolk will give you all the opportunities at OCI that BU or BC will give you. Maybe BU/BC give you a few more, but you give up your grades and the few more aren't worth the $100,000. There are plenty of Suffolk grads in smaller and mid sized firms in Boston, and if you finish 2L and 3L like you did 1L, and aren't a horrible interviewer, you'll be fine. I mean, honestly, you booked more than half your classes. You'd probably have done very well at BU/BC to.

If you were top 5% or even if you said only in the top 15 in the school, I'd say run for BC/BU. But you are in the top 5 of your class, and within the range of students who will land SA jobs from Suffolk this year. If you stay or go, you'll still have to do well in the interviews and look good. I don't see how you can leave a situation where I am sure you'll be getting close to a full ride if not already. Congratulations on a great year, and begin preparing for your interviews.

Agreed

ItsMyTimeBoston · Post by **ItsMyTimeBoston** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:55 pm

ryanmot wrote:I saw this, and had to post. I have to say that some of the advice given here has been pretty misinformed. The student who posted this is in the Top 1% of his class and booked more than half of them! Plus, he wants to practice law in Boston. I don't know what his resume looks like, but he'll have a decent shot at biglaw in Boston. Look up any biglaw firm in Boston (Ropes, Bingham, Mintz, Choate, Goodwin etc.), they all have Associates from Suffolk from the last few years. Suffolk places about ten students a year in biglaw. This student is clearly in the mix for that. To advise him to go to BU/BC where I know of students in the top 10% who struck out is a little risky. Especially with the debt he'll accumulate. To advise him to go to NYU or Columbia is more rational for his job prospects, but does it really increase his chances in the Boston job market? He is going to get interviews with most of the big firms in Boston. Look: http://www.law.suffolk.edu/offices/care ... ules12.pdf Does not mean he'll land anything, but there are no guarantees if he transfers anyway. The only guarantee is paying more like $100,000 in debt.

If your options are only BC or BU, then stay. Being in the top 5 at Suffolk will give you all the opportunities at OCI that BU or BC will give you. Maybe BU/BC give you a few more, but you give up your grades and the few more aren't worth the $100,000. There are plenty of Suffolk grads in smaller and mid sized firms in Boston, and if you finish 2L and 3L like you did 1L, and aren't a horrible interviewer, you'll be fine. I mean, honestly, you booked more than half your classes. You'd probably have done very well at BU/BC to.

If you were top 5% or even if you said only in the top 15 in the school, I'd say run for BC/BU. But you are in the top 5 of your class, and within the range of students who will land SA jobs from Suffolk this year. If you stay or go, you'll still have to do well in the interviews and look good. I don't see how you can leave a situation where I am sure you'll be getting close to a full ride if not already. Congratulations on a great year, and begin preparing for your interviews.

Additionally, OP finished first in his section, and section rank is what the big firms in Boston look at when evaluating Suffolk students. With a number 1 section rank + LR, OP should have no problem landing any job in Boston, unless he/she is a horrible interviewer.

OP - last year the person ranked number one in one of the sections transferred to Harvard. You have a good chance of getting into Harvard, Columbia or NYU.

ryanmot · Post by **ryanmot** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:15 pm

ItsMyTimeBoston wrote: Additionally, OP finished first in his section, and section rank is what the big firms in Boston look at when evaluating Suffolk students. With a number 1 section rank + LR, OP should have no problem landing any job in Boston, unless he/she is a horrible interviewer.

OP - last year the person ranked number one in one of the sections transferred to Harvard. You have a good chance of getting into Harvard, Columbia or NYU.

Out of curiosity, why is that? What does section rank matter? And how do we know the OP wasn't second in his/her section and still top 1%?

CanadianWolf · Post by **CanadianWolf** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:19 pm

OP: Currently, your target market is Boston, however this may change if you are accepted to a Top 6 law school or to Penn. As a Suffolk law student, NYC & Wash DC, for example, are not realistic target markets; but, if accepted to Chicago or to Columbia, all of the nation's major legal markets become possible target markets. The best advice that I can offer is to wait until you know your actual options with the understanding that Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia & Chicago should improve your situation. The only non-T-14 law schools to consider are BC & BU if you make law review as a transfer student.

P.S. I believe that you've missed the law review write-on competitions for Harvard & Columbia, however.

Also, Georgetown offers need based financial aid to transfers.

CanadianWolf · Post by **CanadianWolf** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:27 pm

An additional thought: Based on your success thus far, you should be able to become a law review editor at Suffolk during your third year whereas even law review staff membership is in question at any transfer school.
Therefore, you would probably have to be willing to trade no debt, law review & law review editor, as well as a top 5% ranking in order to transfer.

My final thought: Enjoy Harvard.

opX · Post by **opX** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:49 pm

Get out of t4 if you have the chance.

Yes t4 graduates can carve out a profitable career. But, you can also carve out the same career from a t1 in ur region likely in half the time. (just from talking with attorneys who did the t4 career. They work like crazy for an uncertain career) That is where you make up the money.

moneybagsphd · Post by **moneybagsphd** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:52 pm

fascinatingnot wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:from t4, worth the tranfer to t50 imo. no shot hys though
I must disagree.

Fact: Unless a T14 (give or take), an average student is substantially more likely not to get a big law job than get a big law job...so why transfer for an unimproved situation.

I've always understood why t14 students have a belief in the superiority of their schools... but a non t14 should have no such beliefs, anything outside the t14 is on the same playing field. A kid the top five of a T4 is most likely going to get a better job than all average students outside the t14, and of the remaining t50, better or equal jobs than 90% of the students.

What people don't understand is there really isn't that much of a difference between top students at T4, 3, 2, and lower ranked T1's. The real difference in the schools is that the average students at the higher ranked schools are better, and most employers understand this.

clown post bro.

3ThrowAway99 · Post by **3ThrowAway99** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:09 pm

I think this is a question fairly specific to the school and market. There are some TTTT schools where I suspect that even toward the very top of the class it may not be a great place to be (could be wrong about that too, but part of my understanding of TTTTs and what makes them suck so hard is that you can kill it and still not necessarily have things work out great for you). But it sounds like people who know this school and this market are indicating that you should stay, so I certainly defer to their advice. As a general matter though I think that transferring from a TTTT to a T1 school (especially a T20ish or T14 school) is probably a good idea. But certain TTTTs may be exceptions, especially if person wants to stay nearby, and it may be an exception if person is literally top of their class (which OP essentially is, and which another poster ITT thread indicated he was).

lnoy · Post by **lnoy** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:38 pm

I'm not sure whether or nor it applies here but many law schools state that students who transfer into the law school are not eligible to be ranked and are not eligible for Order of the Coif.
So I'm not sure how much of an impact this will have on you landing a job when you graduate.

fascinatingnot · Post by **fascinatingnot** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:50 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
fascinatingnot wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:from t4, worth the tranfer to t50 imo. no shot hys though
I must disagree.

Fact: Unless a T14 (give or take), an average student is substantially more likely not to get a big law job than get a big law job...so why transfer for an unimproved situation.

I've always understood why t14 students have a belief in the superiority of their schools... but a non t14 should have no such beliefs, anything outside the t14 is on the same playing field. A kid the top five of a T4 is most likely going to get a better job than all average students outside the t14, and of the remaining t50, better or equal jobs than 90% of the students.

What people don't understand is there really isn't that much of a difference between top students at T4, 3, 2, and lower ranked T1's. The real difference in the schools is that the average students at the higher ranked schools are better, and most employers understand this.
clown post bro.

Fair enough, but would you care to articulate?

Very simple math...top 2-3 percent at T4 has very substantial shot at getting big law and at least a job at a respected firm v. Does Gulc even produce 50 percent in biglaw? Why transfer to a T50 (50-17) where they place at most 10-20 percent in big law, when you are already in a fifty/fifty position? And if you are a top 1%, u are a lock unless you lack majorly in other humanly areas.

To take on an extra 100K to say I went to GULC is not my cup of tea, but I get the rational...but to put on that same debt to say I went to Minnesota or Tulane is laughable...I'm not laughing at the institutions itself, but to think that a transfer up would even remotely be better is sad

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