Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Xferr
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby Xferr » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:16 pm

fish52 wrote:
3L Student wrote:Transfers did amazing. Most cracked V50, many V20s. And 90% had BigLaw jobs after OCI. I think everyone ended up with a job by graduation from Class of 2012.

I thought you struck out during 2L OCI and got your job through 3L OCI?

My understanding is that transfers are viewed in light of the school from which they transferred- if you were top 5% at your old school, and the firm would normally consider someone in the top 5% at your old school, then you have a shot at the firm. Transferring just offers you greater access to more firms through OCI, but it's not as though they ignore where you transferred from. Perhaps this isn't true?


That's the opposite of everything I've heard from transfer students that I know personally and what I've read here. It looks like they usually just treat your 1L GPA from your old school as if it were your 1L GPA at your new school. That's why transfers do so well - they have great GPAs.

According to your version, transfer students would be largely ignored during OCI. That's certainly not how it's worked out from everything I've heard.

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drmguy
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby drmguy » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:20 pm

For those that were already accepted, what are you doing for housing?

anonymous688
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby anonymous688 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:35 pm

To those of us still waiting and those who were accepted. Does anyone know how many, if any, are still going to be accepted? I'm planning to call the admissions office tomorrow, but my hope has dwindled considerably.

in_reverie
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby in_reverie » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:02 pm

anonymous688 wrote:To those of us still waiting and those who were accepted. Does anyone know how many, if any, are still going to be accepted? I'm planning to call the admissions office tomorrow, but my hope has dwindled considerably.

If I had to guess, we're going to see another batch of acceptances once the admits' "commitment deadline" hits. Mine is this Friday; others have to give them an answer by July 11.

Edit: And I would think we wouldn't have any more acceptances after July 12, as the LR write-on begins the next day.

fish52
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby fish52 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:52 am

Xferr wrote:
fish52 wrote:
3L Student wrote:Transfers did amazing. Most cracked V50, many V20s. And 90% had BigLaw jobs after OCI. I think everyone ended up with a job by graduation from Class of 2012.

I thought you struck out during 2L OCI and got your job through 3L OCI?

My understanding is that transfers are viewed in light of the school from which they transferred- if you were top 5% at your old school, and the firm would normally consider someone in the top 5% at your old school, then you have a shot at the firm. Transferring just offers you greater access to more firms through OCI, but it's not as though they ignore where you transferred from. Perhaps this isn't true?


That's the opposite of everything I've heard from transfer students that I know personally and what I've read here. It looks like they usually just treat your 1L GPA from your old school as if it were your 1L GPA at your new school. That's why transfers do so well - they have great GPAs.

According to your version, transfer students would be largely ignored during OCI. That's certainly not how it's worked out from everything I've heard.

Where have you heard the opposite of what I said? Everything I've read on TLS seems to be that your grades are viewed in light of the school from which you transferred.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=188057&p=5645136&hilit=transfer#p5645136
"Just the general knowledge here (confirmed by recruiters who post here) that they'll treat you as if you're coming from your old school. So any firms you could get as top 10% at your old school is what you should be looking at now (i.e. don't bid on a bunch of V20s)."

After a quick serach, this appears to be backed up in multiple threads:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=187547&p=5618578&hilit=+transfer+oci#p5618578 in which GULC's Career Office echoes this sentiment
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=185706&p=5543803&hilit=+transfer+oci#p5543803
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=184603&p=5508819&hilit=+transfer+oci#p5508819

And appears to be the perspective of at least one professed firm interviewer:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=163550&p=5551504&hilit=+transfer+oci#p5551504
"if you transfer to columbia, and i interview you, i'm going to judge you against the criteria we have for your old school, not your new school.

so if you didn't meet our standards originally it won't matter."

Logically, it wouldn't make any sense for a firm to consider your 1L transfer GPA as though it came from Boalt because we don't have a numbered GPA system, nor rankings. And it would be terrible reasoning to say that because someone was top 3% at santa clara they should be considered top 3% at Boalt.

Regardless, transferring increases your exposure to the firms and, because of the lottery system, guarantees you interviews with firms that would not have come to the original school's OCI. That's an obvious benefit, but I think it's still important to be honest about the career prospects.

Xferr
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby Xferr » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:08 am

fish52 wrote:Where have you heard the opposite of what I said? Everything I've read on TLS seems to be that your grades are viewed in light of the school from which you transferred.


Well, we can start with the stickied threads:

How do transfers fare at OCI?

So far, the answer seems to be unanimously that transfers do well at OCI. Most transfers do just as well if not better. However, if you had a borderline GPA (like top 15%-20% at a T2 or top 10% at a T4) and you transferred, then you might have slightly worse luck.


And here are 2010 transfer OCI Results: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=132670

A quick look at that shows someone formerly from a T4 being accepted at a V20. That clearly wouldn't have happened if the interviewers treated him as if he was from a T4 school. There are many similar results in there if you want to take a look.

Also, most of what you linked to either doesn't support what you said or refutes what you said. For example:

Yeah, what firms to bid is easier to answer if we know what school you are transferring into.

In general, you should probably spread bids around NYC V10 and V50, aiming at larger classes, as well as some smaller firms in your home market, and a couple less selective V100 or non-V firms. Depending on what school you transfer to, there's not many major firms that are unreachable besides Wachtell, W&C, a few other super selective lit boutiques.

For a rule of thumb, treat yourself as an above median student at your new school, but not top 10% or LR.


Not sure how you could get 'they treat you as if you're from your old school' out of that.

Also from your own link:

Although at NU, the difference may be the WE thing. Otherwise, it's really weird that NU overall would outperform NU transfers, but Mich transfers outperform Mich regularly. I'm just guessing overall that NU is less selective than Mich in terms of transfers (based on last years' transfer cycle). Totally different from regular admissions.


That leaves only your link to tedalbany's statement, and that's the first time I've ever heard someone say that. In looking at actual results, transfer students I've talked to, and the general consensus around here, I'd say that they don't at all treat you as if you're from you're old school.

I asked this explicitly to a transfer from my old school who is now at T14. I also thought it was bizarre, but apparently that's how it works. Good for us.

fish52
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby fish52 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:59 am

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying transfer students don't do well at the new school's OCI, nor am I saying that they don't do better than many of the students at the new school (ie the bottom half). I'm contending that, ceteris paribus, transfer students are viewed in light of their standing at their previous school. I disagree with your claim that their old school's 1L GPA is viewed as a 1L GPA from their new school.

Transferring increases a student's exposure to more firms, and guarantees more interviews through the lottery system or similar OCI mechanisms, so it certainly increases the student's employment prospects. And, likely, a top 3% transfer from Emory to Penn is going to do better than the bottom third of the regular Penn students at OCI. But that student would have likely done better than that group of Penn students even had they not transferred. And it would be absurd to argue that this top 3% Emory transfer is going to be viewed on par with a top 3% regular Penn student. It's even more ridiculous to argue that a top 3% Hofstra student would be seen on the same level as a top 3% Penn student, etc.

But let's look at what you've said.

How do transfers fare at OCI?

So far, the answer seems to be unanimously that transfers do well at OCI. Most transfers do just as well if not better. However, if you had a borderline GPA (like top 15%-20% at a T2 or top 10% at a T4) and you transferred, then you might have slightly worse luck.


I don't disagree with this. If you are top 3% from a T1, of course you are going to do "just as well if not better" than half (below median) students at the t14. You would have similarly outperformed many them if you had never transferred in the first place. And now, with the increased exposure of a T14 OCI, you are going to do eve better.

How do transfers fare at OCI?

So far, the answer seems to be unanimously that transfers do well at OCI. Most transfers do just as well if not better. However, if you had a borderline GPA (like top 15%-20% at a T2 or top 10% at a T4) and you transferred, then you might have slightly worse luck.
This reinforces my point. It says that if you had a borderline GPA from a T2 or T4, you might have slightly worse luck. So clearly the school from which one transferred does matter and does factor into a transfer's performance at the new school's OCI.

As to the 2010 transfer OCI Results, those should be taken with a grain of salt because there is always a substantial self-reporting bias in threads about jobs. People are far more likely to report that they've done well than that they have done badly. But really, the anecdotal evidence from that thread greatly hurts your claim--those are people in the top 1-5% of their original schools performing like median or slightly below median students at their new schools. A significant number of them even struck out completely--a horrifying prospect for someone who gives up a substantial scholarship to graduate unemployed and indebted from a T10. This thread hardly supports your calim of having one's "GPA from their original school treated like it is a GPA from their new school." It does just the opposite.

Concerning the T4 to V20 example, there are always outliers. It's like the straight-P students at Boalt who gets a V10 job... it happens, but that shouldn't be the expectation of every straight-P student.

For a rule of thumb, treat yourself as an above median student at your new school, but not top 10% or LR.
Not sure how you could get 'they treat you as if you're from your old school' out of that.

What? The original quote supports what I'm saying. We're talking about a top of class transfer who is being treated like an "above median student" at their new school. In fact, this directly contradicts your claim that you are treated as though your 1L GPA came from the school to which you transferred. If that were true, this transfer should not be treated as "above median" at OCI, but as top of the class. The quote suggests that this isn't what happens.

The quote about Michigan transfers outperforming Michigan students, again, makes sense because we're talking about the top couple of students from a T1 (generally, with some T1+s thrown in) competing against the entire range of students from the T14, including the bottom of the class. Of course they are likely to do better than those bottom (half, even) students, and thus "do better than the regular students." I'm not disputing that.

Finally, you didn't respond to the quote from the V15 recruiter, which I think is perhaps most dispositive--since (s)he's actually a recruiter and said exactly what I have. You also didn't respond to the thread where a GULC transfer spoke with their CSO about transfer prospects at OCI--spoiler: their CSO certainly didn't say their 1L GPA would be treated as though it were a 1L GPA from GULC. And why would it?

But I don't want to argue for argument's sake. People just need to have rational expectations, especially if they are doubling their debt load. Transferring is, of course, a good idea for many transfers (ie T4s who would otherwise not even get their foot in the door at asingle BigLaw firm), but the benefit has some diminishing returns where the student comes from a decent law school on scholarship, and is fooled into giving up that scholarship believing their #1 ranking at Washington will be considered the same as a #1 standing at Columbia if they transfer.

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fatduck
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby fatduck » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:30 am

fish52 wrote:I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying transfer students don't do well at the new school's OCI, nor am I saying that they don't do better than many of the students at the new school (ie the bottom half). I'm contending that, ceteris paribus, transfer students are viewed in light of their standing at their previous school. I disagree with your claim that their old school's 1L GPA is viewed as a 1L GPA from their new school.

Transferring increases a student's exposure to more firms, and guarantees more interviews through the lottery system or similar OCI mechanisms, so it certainly increases the student's employment prospects. And, likely, a top 3% transfer from Emory to Penn is going to do better than the bottom third of the regular Penn students at OCI. But that student would have likely done better than that group of Penn students even had they not transferred. And it would be absurd to argue that this top 3% Emory transfer is going to be viewed on par with a top 3% regular Penn student. It's even more ridiculous to argue that a top 3% Hofstra student would be seen on the same level as a top 3% Penn student, etc.

But let's look at what you've said.

How do transfers fare at OCI?

So far, the answer seems to be unanimously that transfers do well at OCI. Most transfers do just as well if not better. However, if you had a borderline GPA (like top 15%-20% at a T2 or top 10% at a T4) and you transferred, then you might have slightly worse luck.


I don't disagree with this. If you are top 3% from a T1, of course you are going to do "just as well if not better" than half (below median) students at the t14. You would have similarly outperformed many them if you had never transferred in the first place. And now, with the increased exposure of a T14 OCI, you are going to do eve better.

How do transfers fare at OCI?

So far, the answer seems to be unanimously that transfers do well at OCI. Most transfers do just as well if not better. However, if you had a borderline GPA (like top 15%-20% at a T2 or top 10% at a T4) and you transferred, then you might have slightly worse luck.
This reinforces my point. It says that if you had a borderline GPA from a T2 or T4, you might have slightly worse luck. So clearly the school from which one transferred does matter and does factor into a transfer's performance at the new school's OCI.

As to the 2010 transfer OCI Results, those should be taken with a grain of salt because there is always a substantial self-reporting bias in threads about jobs. People are far more likely to report that they've done well than that they have done badly. But really, the anecdotal evidence from that thread greatly hurts your claim--those are people in the top 1-5% of their original schools performing like median or slightly below median students at their new schools. A significant number of them even struck out completely--a horrifying prospect for someone who gives up a substantial scholarship to graduate unemployed and indebted from a T10. This thread hardly supports your calim of having one's "GPA from their original school treated like it is a GPA from their new school." It does just the opposite.

Concerning the T4 to V20 example, there are always outliers. It's like the straight-P students at Boalt who gets a V10 job... it happens, but that shouldn't be the expectation of every straight-P student.

For a rule of thumb, treat yourself as an above median student at your new school, but not top 10% or LR.
Not sure how you could get 'they treat you as if you're from your old school' out of that.

What? The original quote supports what I'm saying. We're talking about a top of class transfer who is being treated like an "above median student" at their new school. In fact, this directly contradicts your claim that you are treated as though your 1L GPA came from the school to which you transferred. If that were true, this transfer should not be treated as "above median" at OCI, but as top of the class. The quote suggests that this isn't what happens.

The quote about Michigan transfers outperforming Michigan students, again, makes sense because we're talking about the top couple of students from a T1 (generally, with some T1+s thrown in) competing against the entire range of students from the T14, including the bottom of the class. Of course they are likely to do better than those bottom (half, even) students, and thus "do better than the regular students." I'm not disputing that.

Finally, you didn't respond to the quote from the V15 recruiter, which I think is perhaps most dispositive--since (s)he's actually a recruiter and said exactly what I have. You also didn't respond to the thread where a GULC transfer spoke with their CSO about transfer prospects at OCI--spoiler: their CSO certainly didn't say their 1L GPA would be treated as though it were a 1L GPA from GULC. And why would it?

But I don't want to argue for argument's sake. People just need to have rational expectations, especially if they are doubling their debt load. Transferring is, of course, a good idea for many transfers (ie T4s who would otherwise not even get their foot in the door at asingle BigLaw firm), but the benefit has some diminishing returns where the student comes from a decent law school on scholarship, and is fooled into giving up that scholarship believing their #1 ranking at Washington will be considered the same as a #1 standing at Columbia if they transfer.

didn't read because, inter alia, ceteris paribus

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drmguy
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby drmguy » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:37 am

Keep going because the winner of this argument defines how transfers will be treated.

fish52
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby fish52 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:12 am

fatduck wrote:didn't read because, inter alia, ceteris paribus

I see what you did there. Clever duck.

3L Student
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby 3L Student » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:08 pm

To whoever commented on my background, I'll give you a quick update on my situation.

I was top 3% at a T2 before I transferred to Boalt. I hit OCI hard and focused on SF only. I landed over 6 call backs, 5 of them in SF. Unfortunately I wasn't ready to interview. I bombed my interviews and blew my chances.

Like I said, 90% received jobs at 2L OCI, and I was one of the only ones who didn't. Most of my buddies are going to firms like SulCrom, Davis Polk, Kirkland, Latham, Jones Day, etc. No way that they would have landed those firms from Santa Clara, Davis, Hastings, etc.

I worked my butt off that year, got good grades, and I ended up landing a paid gig with a paid fed govt agency for the summer. I then hit 3L OCI and received 3 call backs, 3 offers (one V10 in SF), and I ended up taking a Magic Circle in London that I landed outside of OCI.

Your old school is really irrelevant, especially at Berkeley. When they see a line of A's going down your transcript, you've passed the grade test. Even the V10s will take you if you interview well.

Like someone above said, we had a student transfer from a T4 and land a V15. No way that would have happened had he not transferred.

As reference, nobody in the top 10% at my old T2 landed BigLaw.

Just about everyone who transferred in was extremely happy.

lawschoolisfun2012
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby lawschoolisfun2012 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:54 pm

Just called Berkeley. They will release some decisions today (not yet on status checker). I asked them on the phone, and said "very sorry to tell you this, but you have denied."

strokes4ever
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby strokes4ever » Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:53 pm

sorry to hear that, lawschoolisfun. i went complete right around the time you did. ranked lower than you at a T1, so not expecting much. let's see what today brings.

anyone else with any Berkeley correspondence today?

etonses
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby etonses » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:41 pm

Nope, I haven't heard anything. Sorry lawschoolisfun. I'll surely be in the same boat as you.

heeloftar
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby heeloftar » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:32 pm

.
Last edited by heeloftar on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

dtl
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby dtl » Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:15 pm

I am a bit scared now too. I am curious if his status still shows "under review" even though they let him know he was dinged over the phone. I have similiar numbers although my school is a bit higher ranked and still show in review.

I am losing hope thats for sure.

in_reverie
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby in_reverie » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:16 pm

Decision time fast approaching for the first batch of admits. For those of you who are going to accept, what are you doing with your pending transfer apps?

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drmguy
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby drmguy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:21 pm

in_reverie wrote:Decision time fast approaching for the first batch of admits. For those of you who are going to accept, what are you doing with your pending transfer apps?

The admission letter says you should withdraw all other apps. If I remember correctly, they use stronger wording than the GULC "intent to enroll."

grok123
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby grok123 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:57 pm

drmguy wrote:
in_reverie wrote:Decision time fast approaching for the first batch of admits. For those of you who are going to accept, what are you doing with your pending transfer apps?

The admission letter says you should withdraw all other apps. If I remember correctly, they use stronger wording than the GULC "intent to enroll."


Unless the snail mail admit letter (which I don't remember seeing) is different from the e-mailed acceptance there isn't anything in there about withdrawing other apps.

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drmguy
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby drmguy » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:51 pm

grok123 wrote:
drmguy wrote:
in_reverie wrote:Decision time fast approaching for the first batch of admits. For those of you who are going to accept, what are you doing with your pending transfer apps?

The admission letter says you should withdraw all other apps. If I remember correctly, they use stronger wording than the GULC "intent to enroll."


Unless the snail mail admit letter (which I don't remember seeing) is different from the e-mailed acceptance there isn't anything in there about withdrawing other apps.

Language in an email after I accepted:

"I assume that you have withdrawn all of your other transfer applications."

dtl
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby dtl » Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:58 pm

Yeah the acceptance letter that I saw (but did not personally receive) basically gave a spiel about how important honesty is in the legal profession and how accepting at berkeley means you truly want to go there and are withdrawing other applications.

She is in a big pickle over waiting for Stanford to get back to her or going for Berkeley.

Hopefully she gets Stanford so I have a better shot at Berkeley =P

grok123
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby grok123 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:11 pm

There's no stated requirement that you withdraw other apps in the e-mail you receive notifying you that you've been accepted. But apparently after you indicate you accept, the follow-up e-mail from the school mentions you should have withdrawn all other apps.

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fatduck
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby fatduck » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:12 pm

grok123 wrote:There's no stated requirement that you withdraw other apps in the e-mail you receive notifying you that you've been accepted. But apparently after you indicate you accept, the follow-up e-mail from the school mentions you should have withdrawn all other apps.

i understand the tactic but this is such a dick move

in_reverie
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby in_reverie » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:15 pm

So with all that said, what are the consequences if you renege? I'll admit the language in the acceptance email looks vaguely menacing. But surely other Berkeley admits have accepted then gotten admitted to HYS - you'd think at least a few people would back out every year.

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fatduck
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Re: Transfer to Berkeley waiting thread 2012

Postby fatduck » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:17 pm

in_reverie wrote:So with all that said, what are the consequences if you renege? I'll admit the language in the acceptance email looks vaguely menacing. But surely other Berkeley admits have accepted then gotten admitted to HYS - you'd think at least a few people would back out every year.

i'm guessing zero consequences. they're just playing on your fears.




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