Transfer From Howard Law (Rarely See This Topic Mentioned) Forum

[Trans4]

Folks,

Considering transferring from Howard Law and would really appreciate input. I finished with a 90 average for the first semester and the number one student from last year finished 1L year with a 93. Being that Howard doesn't release rankings until after second semester grades are released it's hard to say with certainty exactly where I was at the end of first semester but I feel pretty good about second semester exams so am hoping I'll push into top 5, 3 or 1%.

My list of potential schools now is all the places I felt like it was beyond futile to apply to as an 0L: Chicago, Columbia, UPENN, NYU, UVA, Duke, Georgetown. (If somehow I ended up as the #1 student, I might add HYS to the list.) Just wanted to hear what people thought would be required to have a shot at the mentioned places.

Howard seems to be an anomaly in transfer discussions because it's ranked as a TTT law school but its OCI hangs with the T6s, creating a huge disincentive for well ranked students to walk away and into anonymity at a more elite school. But, I wonder if top law schools view Howard Law transfers the same as other TTT transfer applicants or more generously like firms do?

Anyway, to the answer the obvious question of why would I "walk away and into anonymity" if I had the chance, it's a mixture of things: wanting to push myself and compete with students at the highest level that I'm able to but also because I'm worried about the long-term yet subtle effects a Howard Law degree has.

I worked at a BigLaw firm before entering Howard and I saw and heard some things that make me a bit weary. Suffices to say, that I already have to worry about whether a lead attorney will think I'm competent enough to handle a deal because I'm black and that adding to the fact that I graduated from a law school not known for its academic rigor is just more paranoia on my plate.

I probably violated some unwritten rule by writing such a long, original post, but it feels good to write some of these things out, finally. Really hoping from some guidance from the community. Thanks in advance.

[concurrent fork]

I wonder if top law schools view Howard Law transfers the same as other TTT transfer applicants or more generously like firms do?

Good question. We don't have data on this so all we can do is speculate. There isn't any evidence of a URM "boost" in transfer applications generally (there have been quite a few topics on this issue), so by analogy there probably isn't a boost for attending a historically black school.

Still, I would go through the process as if there might be a boost (i.e. apply to schools that would normally be out of reach for your rank/school). It's worth the extra app fees just in case.

[Veyron]

Why would you transfer, your grades put you in a killer position for OCI?

[Trans4]

Because I wonder what are the long-term stigmatic effects of a Howard Law degree.

[Ehudbarak15]

I'd leave for top 15-20. Howard puts you in a good position for your first job but not much else.

[blurbz]

If there is a minority boost in transfers, I don't think Howard kids will get MORE of a boost for choosing an historically black school first. The reason Howard does so well at OCI is because they have so many minorities in one place so it's easier for firms to fill minority quotas with trips there rather than parsing resumes at other schools.

I certainly don't mean that to be offensive at all--it's just my take on the advantages: The school has one due to volume but the individual transfer applicant probably won't fare better or worse than a minority student from elsewhere.

[Betharl]

Howard seems to be an anomaly in transfer discussions because it's ranked as a TTT law school but its OCI hangs with the T6s, creating a huge disincentive for well ranked students to walk away and into anonymity at a more elite school.

I'm not sure why you would transfer if you believe this, even given the other factors you mention about why you'd want to leave Howard. Although, I'm not sure that you're right. A quick look at NLJ250 numbers from years past and it looks like Howard places 30-40th in any given year, unless you're using some other metric to measure OCI success, that's not even close to the t14 let alone the t6. Did you mean the same number/types of firms show up to Howard and t6s? Were you trying to say top students at Howard place as well as the top students at t6 schools? I could believe Howard places its top students into the same kind of ultra-prestigious positions as t6 schools, but I have no idea if that's actually the case.

[BruceWayne]

Grades like that at Howard will get you into the majority of the big time firms. The only way transferring would be worth it would be if you left for HYS. Going to a top 15-20, as someone suggested, would be insane. Top 6 isn't a distinction in the real world, except that those schools do do better in NYC firms, so I would ignore advice about that unless NYC is your goal.

[BarcaCrossesTheAlps]

I always had a positive view of Howard. In fact, isn't Howard the "Harvard of HBCU's?" I was also under the impression that Howard Law School didn't suffer any stigma of being a TTT and placed very well, above its TTT status, especially in good DC jobs.

I hate to say it, but you may be a little paranoid. I'm a 0L, therefore take everything I say with a grain of salt, but I agree with Batman above. If you just want to compete against "top students" then go to HSY. Otherwise, why transfer? You are set up perfectly. It seems you are more worried about layman perceptions than with actual reality regarding a Howard Law degree.

--LinkRemoved--

With your position at Howard, you look to be in the driver's seat, dude. If you want NYC or San Fransisco or something, then transfer, but otherwise there doesn't seem to be a point....

Good luck in whatever you choose to do and congrats on kicking total ass.

[PDaddy]

I would bet that the #1 student at Howard would be a good candidate at any law school, including HYS. The 1L curricula at across ABA approved law schools is 85% the same, so your 1L record is considered to be a very good indicator of your potential for success at other schools. Moreover, the elite schools will want to use you as a replacement for students who flunk out or transfer, especially those who are people of color

Read: Not only African-American URM's, but any students of color who either don't do as well as projected or transfer.

If you are number one, pick four of the top-10 schools. I bet you'll get into at least three if not all four of them. You could stay at Howard and have access to the same jobs you might coming out of any other school, but I know the cache at HYS is hard to ignore. You might just want to stay put. If I were in your position and considering transfering, I would only apply to HYS and maybe one of CCN MVPBN. I'd only consider attending one of CCN MVPBN if I had a compelling reason for attending one of them (family illness, etc. There's no question as to whether you'll get in.

Remember also that you can study at any of those schools as a visiting 3L, and you'd likely be accepted with open arms. So if you need to be in a different city during 3L but are comfortable at Howard, stay put for now and visit as a 3L. It goes on your resume.

[Wholigan]

I would bet that the #1 student at Howard would be a good candidate at any law school, including HYS.

I would tend to disagree with this. The #1 student at most lower T2s usually can't get into HYS (and almost certainly not Y/S), so I don't know why #1 from Howard would be better.

the elite schools will want to use you as a replacement for students who flunk out or transfer, especially those who are people of color

There are little to no people of any color who transfer or flunk out from T14 schools. Maybe a couple of transfers per year from each of the lower T14, but I don't think this is the reason T14s take transfers.

If you are number one, pick four of the top-10 schools. I bet you'll get into at least three if not all four of them.

Again, I disagree if HYS are among the four schools.

[TTRansfer]

Would not be smart to transfer, IMO.

[Ehudbarak15]

This board, among its many problems, stresses the importance of OCI too much.

Howard positions you well for your first job. If you, as many do, decide to leave big law or are fired, a top 10-20 school will help you land another gig. That isn't "insane." Howard frankly is a joke of a school.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: If you're in the top 5% at Howard, then consider Harvard & Chicago as well as other top 12 law schools.

Also, would you really give up top 5% at Howard for Georgetown ? If so, then I suspect that you need to speak to some folks at Howard about top 5% standing & what it means during OCI.

[mileslibertatis]

I have a serious question and I don't mean to be offensive to anyone. But Howard's average LSAT score is 153. Harvard is something like 172, and Georgetown, at the bottom of the T14, is 169.

LSAT scores are not indicative of much, but there is a rough correlation between raw talent and this number.

Is there not a risk that a transfer from Howard will be outmatched at every turn at any of the T14? Just for fun, so we can include the white boys in this too, isn't the same true for a school like the University of Idaho (Rank 129, average LSAT 154, 82% white)?

Of course there are students at Howard who can hang with and even trounce some at the T14. But I'm just speaking in terms of risks and averages.

[transferquery]

I have a serious question and I don't mean to be offensive to anyone. But Howard's average LSAT score is 153. Harvard is something like 172, and Georgetown, at the bottom of the T14, is 169.

LSAT scores are not indicative of much, but there is a rough correlation between raw talent and this number.

Is there not a risk that a transfer from Howard will be outmatched at every turn at any of the T14? Just for fun, so we can include the white boys in this too, isn't the same true for a school like the University of Idaho (Rank 129, average LSAT 154, 82% white)?

Of course there are students at Howard who can hang with and even trounce some at the T14. But I'm just speaking in terms of risks and averages.

This occurred to me as well

[CanadianWolf]

Many, maybe most, law schools grade easier during the final two years. Finishing in the top 5% suggests that one understands how to write law school exams. Without specifics about an individual applicant, it's hard to guess although your thoughts seem reasonable. Transfer admissions, however, are about picking out proven individuals while the LSAT is a method to predict who will do well inlaw school.

[mileslibertatis]

It also only means that you write better or spot more issues or adapt to the professor better than your current peers.

I have this fear about my own transfer prospects. Right now I am number 1 (unofficially), but if I end up at a place like Columbia where everyone can turn a phrase and cut through irrelevancies, I fear I will drift toward the middle of the pack, or worse.