To transfer or not

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Kitakk
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:16 am

To transfer or not

Postby Kitakk » Thu May 17, 2012 7:27 am

I can't decide whether or not to transfer. If so, I am not sure where to apply.

Top 10% (likely outcome after all grades posted) of a T25 school. Not sure where I can realistically get in. I have a lot of personal connections in my current area, including family. I wouldn't mind a career here, but even with my grades I can't get on law review as I missed a deadline for write-on when my car broke down on the way there. I jump through some hoops to try and get them to accept my submission, but after getting told no I am so mad at my school that I started thinking about transferring.

It seems like I have an outside shot at HYS, and a pretty good shot at any T14. I am not sure if the T14 school would be to small of a move and not really worth it.

run26.2
Posts: 896
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:35 am

Re: To transfer or not

Postby run26.2 » Thu May 17, 2012 9:24 am

If you do make top 10% at a T25, that should be good enough to get into several T14s, starting at Columbia. You can try with HYS, but it is pretty unlikely. But at each school below there, you will be very competitive.

If you transfer, you'll have an opportunity to get on a journal at your new school. Not having law review means more at a T25 than it will at a higher ranked school.

It sounds like you like the option of returning to your current area but are not married to the idea. Top 10% at a T25 is a bit inside the percentage that get NLJ 250. Your chances at getting an offer from a smaller national firm are ok, but not a lock, and my guess is that you would have the local firms as fallback options. Transferring will allow you to more effectively conduct a national job search. If you're transferring from St. Louis or Minneapolis, you'll have to do a bit more work because fewer of the local firms will come to OCI at a T14. Several larger firms from both of those cities go to UChicago and NU's OCIs. You can reach out to the others via mailings. It will be more inconvenient meeting with these employers, though, since they won't be local any more and you will probably have to pay your own travel costs to the city. I imagine you will probably face some questions about why you transferred only to apply back to the local area. This MAY hurt your chances, but I'm not completely sure.

Transferring to a higher ranked school will open up many more opportunities in the other major employment markets, like New York, DC, and California. In my mind, I think you will have to balance a fairly substantial increase in the possibility of getting a job at a prestigious firm in one of these other markets but with greater inconvenience in conducting a search where you are from against a possibility of making it slightly harder to get back to your local market.

CanadianWolf
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu May 17, 2012 9:32 am

You probably should have a better reason for transferring than misdirected anger.

Which T-25 do you attend currently ? What is your targeted or desired market(s) after finishing law school ?

At the very least, you should submit transfer applications to Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, Northwestern & Michigan.

woeisme
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:39 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby woeisme » Thu May 17, 2012 9:46 am

CanadianWolf wrote:You probably should have a better reason for transferring than misdirected anger.

Which T-25 do you attend currently ? What is your targeted or desired market(s) after finishing law school ?

At the very least, you should submit transfer applications to Columbia, NYU, Chicago, Penn, Northwestern & Michigan.


Not sure why you'd recommend these particular schools without having OP answer your questions.

OP, you might as well apply to all T14 that appeal to you. See what your options end up looking like and then reevaluate...

CanadianWolf
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Re: To transfer or not

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu May 17, 2012 9:48 am

Because they offer far superior placement options than WashUStL, Emory, ND and Washington & Lee----especially since OP is at a T-25 (probably T-22 to T-24) without law review.

Also, H,Y & S are unlikely. Georgetown doesn't offer as much in terms of placement. Cornell doesn't allow transfers to participate in the first Fall OCI. Virginia & Berkeley seem to prefer state residents as transfers. Duke should, however, be included if OP is targeting The South.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu May 17, 2012 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: To transfer or not

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu May 17, 2012 9:53 am

First of all, did you talk to the administration re the law review write-on? That seems awfully petty on the board's part, if you can actually prove that your car broke down on the way in.

Second, you should probably think about transferring even if you were able to get your LR application in--particularly since you seem to be outside of the grade-on range. I'd apply to HCCN (Y and S aren't realistic, but if you have cash to burn, feel free), along with any other T14s that are in markets you'd like to work in (so if you want to be in Chicago, apply to Northwestern and Michigan, etc.)

You said that you "wouldn't mind" a career where you currently are. If what you mean is that "I'd rather be in a biglaw market somewhere, but wouldn't be heartbroken to stay here" then I would transfer. If you mean something else... maybe not.

CanadianWolf
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Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu May 17, 2012 9:55 am

OP: Does your law school have a grade-on status for law review ? Or is the write-on still required even if in the top 1% or so ?

Also, which deadline did you miss ? Was it a submission deadline ? Or just a registration deadline ?

Xferr
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby Xferr » Thu May 17, 2012 10:14 am

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Does your law school have a grade-on status for law review ? Or is the write-on still required even if in the top 1% or so ?


The OP clearly answers these questions. His car broke down on the way to submitting his paper for the write-on. As a result, he can't make law review.

His sentiments aren't misdirected at all. If a school wants to keep its top students, they shouldn't foreclose a massive, career-defining opportunity due to circumstances beyond his control. The only way he can fill this gap is by transferring to a school where (1) the ability to get on law review is still open and/or (2) lacking law review will not foreclose a significant amount of job opportunities.

OP, sounds like transferring should definitely be on the table for you. It re-opens job opportunities that your school foreclosed to you, and it sends a nice clear message not to be unreasonable.

keg411
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Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby keg411 » Thu May 17, 2012 10:33 am

OP, how much of a scholarship do you have at your current school? Also, where do you want to work after law school? In your current school's home market or your T25's home market?

For applications, I'd recommend CCNMP and maybe Harvard if you go up to top 5% (might as well throw an app at H no matter what, but you probably won't get in unless you go up). Your current placement puts you in a great position to get one of Columbia/NYU and you will probably get both Penn and Michigan. Also, consider Berkeley if you are a CA resident or UVA if you are a VA resident or Duke if you have ties to the south and want to work there or NU if you have good work experience.

CanadianWolf
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Re: To transfer or not

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu May 17, 2012 10:46 am

@Xferr: Glad that it's clear to you. But, if OP's car malfunction caused him to miss the final deadline for submission of his completed law review packet, then his anger is clearly misdirected. (That was an unwise risk to take, in my opinion.) If you don't agree, then try telling an appellate court that your notice of appeal or appellate brief is a day late "because your car broke down".

OP: Did you submit electronically before the deadline ? Why did you wait until the last hour or so to submit your finished product ?

Xferr
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby Xferr » Thu May 17, 2012 11:01 am

CanadianWolf wrote:@Xferr: Glad that it's clear to you. But, if OP's car malfunction caused him to miss the final deadline for submission of his completed law review packet, then his anger is clearly misdirected. (That was an unwise risk to take, in my opinion.) If you don't agree, then try telling an appellate court that your notice of appeal or appellate brief is a day late "because your car broke down".


This isn't a court of appeals. This is a business, and the OP is a customer. If the OP's law school wants to retain OP's tuition, it's not smart to block off significant opportunities that the OP could get elsewhere.

The "clear" part was in response to your factual questions. They're answered in the original post.

CanadianWolf wrote:OP: Did you submit electronically before the deadline ? Why did you wait until the last hour or so to submit your finished product ?


Again, OP said law review is not an option - check the first post. Second question is irrelevant.

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quiver
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Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:46 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby quiver » Thu May 17, 2012 11:08 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:First of all, did you talk to the administration re the law review write-on? That seems awfully petty on the board's part, if you can actually prove that your car broke down on the way in.

Second, you should probably think about transferring even if you were able to get your LR application in--particularly since you seem to be outside of the grade-on range. I'd apply to HCCN (Y and S aren't realistic, but if you have cash to burn, feel free), along with any other T14s that are in markets you'd like to work in (so if you want to be in Chicago, apply to Northwestern and Michigan, etc.)

You said that you "wouldn't mind" a career where you currently are. If what you mean is that "I'd rather be in a biglaw market somewhere, but wouldn't be heartbroken to stay here" then I would transfer. If you mean something else... maybe not.
Completely agree with this.

CanadianWolf
Posts: 10439
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu May 17, 2012 11:12 am

@Xferr: What are you talking about ?????

If the law school makes an exception for OP, then it should do so for all. If OP had submitted a completed law review packet electronically prior to the submission deadline, then OP can make a reasonably strong argument that the deadline requirement was satisfied. Moreover, if OP had the option, opportunity or requirement to file electronically in addition to a hard-copy submission and failed to do so prior to the deadline, then the car malfunction excuse is made even weaker.

P.S. You might want to check the definition of "deadline". Also, welcome to the real world. :D

Kitakk
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 7:16 am

Re: To transfer or not

Postby Kitakk » Thu May 17, 2012 12:04 pm

To answer a few questions:

- I never had a target market in mind. The family where I am is nice, but I just wanted to work in a large law firm eventually. I have some interest in academia, but that path seems unlikely. Perhaps its possible if I can get into U of Chicago or maybe NYU, I don't really know what schools are good for that outside HYS.


- I don't really care who or what was at fault for the fact that I can't be on Law Review at my current school anymore. My perspective is of course that the school is being unreasonable, but that is not the point of any of this. Having calmed down a little bit, it only makes objective sense to transfer into a T14 school where 1) Law Review will matter less; and 2) I have some chance of making it anyway.

Additionally:

- My grades might still move a little, I haven't gotten all of the final grades yet. Likely top 10%, possibly top 5%. How much, if at all does that 5% change the game?

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FantasticMrFox
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Re: To transfer or not

Postby FantasticMrFox » Thu May 17, 2012 12:12 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:.

no way...your day has come! you were made for this thread

keg411
Posts: 5935
Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby keg411 » Thu May 17, 2012 12:13 pm

1) If no target market, where are you from and where is your current school?
2) Do you have $$$ at your current school?
3) Just so you know, your chances of making LR as a transfer are very slim. No one made it at Michigan this year, though I don't know about other schools (if people from other schools want to chime in, feel free :)).
4) 5% gives you a better chance at HYS, though it's no guarantee, and makes a CCN acceptance much easier. It will also help in terms of what firms you are competitive for at a T14 OCI.

Xferr
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:24 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby Xferr » Thu May 17, 2012 12:34 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:@Xferr: What are you talking about ?????

If the law school makes an exception for OP, then it should do so for all. If OP had submitted a completed law review packet electronically prior to the submission deadline, then OP can make a reasonably strong argument that the deadline requirement was satisfied. Moreover, if OP had the option, opportunity or requirement to file electronically in addition to a hard-copy submission and failed to do so prior to the deadline, then the car malfunction excuse is made even weaker.

P.S. You might want to check the definition of "deadline". Also, welcome to the real world. :D


This is the last time I'm going to tell you to read the OP. It says he jumped through hoops trying to get his submission in. They still said no. Again, he's not asking, "How can I get them to accept my submission?" He already knows he can't, so discussion on electronic nonsense isn't going to help.

The bottom line is that the best business decision the OP could make right now is to transfer. On one hand, he could stay where he is and deal with significantly limited career opportunities based on what he thinks is his school acting unreasonably. On the other hand, he could transfer, thereby opening those opportunities back up, possibly with an increased chance of success. The choice is obvious.

You're getting too caught up on the reasonableness of his missing the deadline. From what he said, sure, a car breakdown seems like a decent reason to miss the deadline. Maybe there's more to it that he's not telling us. It doesn't matter. If the OP gets some pleasure from spiting a school that he thinks wronged him, then good for him. It just adds gravy to the correct decision from a business standpoint.


Edit: Also, I don't know what "real world" you live in where shit doesn't happen. In the REAL real world, it does, and people understand that. Btw, look up nunc pro tunc appeals.
Last edited by Xferr on Thu May 17, 2012 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rogermurdoch
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: To transfer or not

Postby rogermurdoch » Thu May 17, 2012 12:35 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:@Xferr: What are you talking about ?????

If the law school makes an exception for OP, then it should do so for all. If OP had submitted a completed law review packet electronically prior to the submission deadline, then OP can make a reasonably strong argument that the deadline requirement was satisfied. Moreover, if OP had the option, opportunity or requirement to file electronically in addition to a hard-copy submission and failed to do so prior to the deadline, then the car malfunction excuse is made even weaker.

P.S. You might want to check the definition of "deadline". Also, welcome to the real world. :D


Why are you trying to act like the OP's mother and lecture about deadlines? People miss deadlines in the real world all the time. Why does it matter whether the hard deadline is fair or not? How is that at all relevant to the OP's decision to transfer?

"Gee whiz, I can't get on law review here so my job prospects are impaired... I could improve things by transferring, but it's my own damn fault I missed the deadline so I guess I'll punish myself further and stick around!"




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