Campos on transferring

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Lord Randolph McDuff
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Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:50 pm

Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
2. Do you, wise online community, still believe that there is no URM bump in the transfer game?

I think my reasons for 1. are obvious, however let me provide some background on 2.

Why do schools want URMs in the first place? Does this reason suddenly go away when the URMs complete their first year of law school? I ask these questions because I think that schools would actually take more URMs if they didn't have to report their scores to USNWR. If so, then why wouldn't the taking of URMs during the transfer process be encouraged? I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?

FWIW, (absolute nothing for the purposes of this discussion, really), I have Campos as my property professor.

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chem
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby chem » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:00 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
2. Do you, wise online community, still believe that there is no URM bump in the transfer game?

I think my reasons for 1. are obvious, however let me provide some background on 2.

Why do schools want URMs in the first place? Does this reason suddenly go away when the URMs complete their first year of law school? I ask these questions because I think that schools would actually take more URMs if they didn't have to report their scores to USNWR. If so, then why wouldn't the taking of URMs during the transfer process be encouraged? I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?

FWIW, (absolute nothing for the purposes of this discussion, really), I have Campos as my property professor.


Already a thread for that

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:25 pm

chem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
2. Do you, wise online community, still believe that there is no URM bump in the transfer game?

I think my reasons for 1. are obvious, however let me provide some background on 2.

Why do schools want URMs in the first place? Does this reason suddenly go away when the URMs complete their first year of law school? I ask these questions because I think that schools would actually take more URMs if they didn't have to report their scores to USNWR. If so, then why wouldn't the taking of URMs during the transfer process be encouraged? I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?


FWIW, (absolute nothing for the purposes of this discussion, really), I have Campos as my property professor.


Already a thread for that


Wow man. Thanks for helping me to realize that every person worthy of an opinion on the subject had already logged on to the internet at the same time and, after much work and deliberation, published a MASTER THREAD TO END ALL OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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3|ink
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby 3|ink » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:50 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
chem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
2. Do you, wise online community, still believe that there is no URM bump in the transfer game?

I think my reasons for 1. are obvious, however let me provide some background on 2.

Why do schools want URMs in the first place? Does this reason suddenly go away when the URMs complete their first year of law school? I ask these questions because I think that schools would actually take more URMs if they didn't have to report their scores to USNWR. If so, then why wouldn't the taking of URMs during the transfer process be encouraged? I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?


FWIW, (absolute nothing for the purposes of this discussion, really), I have Campos as my property professor.


Already a thread for that


Wow man. Thanks for helping me to realize that every person worthy of an opinion on the subject had already logged on to the internet at the same time and, after much work and deliberation, published a MASTER THREAD TO END ALL OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You mean you didn't know?

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quiver
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby quiver » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:51 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
I very much doubt this is true (at least at T14 schools). There are always exceptions such as where someone with a ridiculous soft outperforms their numbers but this is very rare, especially in transfer admissions. Can't comment on the URM thing.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:53 pm

quiver wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
I very much doubt this is true (at least at T14 schools). There are always exceptions such as where someone with a ridiculous soft outperforms their numbers but this is very rare, especially in transfer admissions. Can't comment on the URM thing.
Depends on what is meant by "stellar." The Campos anecdote was someone going from top 20% T2 to CLS.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby 062914123 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:55 pm

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Last edited by 062914123 on Sun Jun 29, 2014 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:39 pm

Really? That's what you got from that exchange? Dood was being a typical TLS dick by dismissing my thread because it is not, at least in this case, 100% original. This doesn't make any sense, and I can tell from your response that you don't get it either.

Why encourage someone to do a search and find out Xs opinion in 2008, when creating a new thread to get the present day opinion of Y could be equally, more, or less valuable? It's one of those mindless idiosyncracys of TLSs groupthink culture. It's on online forum people, different people with differing levels of expertise log on at different times. Let that sink in before you respond, or choose to actually contribute to the questions presented.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Vronsky » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:35 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote: I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?


I don't think this is true. I don't think anything about the transfer class counts towards the numbers reported by schools to USNEWS. Think about it, why would schools report URM numbers from transfers, but not LSAT/GPA? I think the fact that most transfer classes are homogenous and non-AA or URM shows that schools simply cherry pick the best students from applicants without regard to other factors that are relevant for 1L admission.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby concurrent fork » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:04 am

Vronsky wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote: I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?


I don't think this is true. I don't think anything about the transfer class counts towards the numbers reported by schools to USNEWS. Think about it, why would schools report URM numbers from transfers, but not LSAT/GPA? I think the fact that most transfer classes are homogenous and non-AA or URM shows that schools simply cherry pick the best students from applicants without regard to other factors that are relevant for 1L admission.

Agreed. To the extent that Adcomms use their transfer class to improve school stats, the focus seems to be on employment and not diversity.

Another way to look at it is to say that there is a boost in the sense that the URM applicant is coming from a higher ranked school than a non-URM with the same LSAT/UGPA due to the boost in 0L admissions. All things being equal, a higher-ranked school improves transfer prospects. Thus, there should already be a layer of AA built into the process, and it probably wouldn't make sense to apply an additional layer.

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chem
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby chem » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:45 am

bee wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
chem wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Paul Campos has been incinuating that is is much easier to transfer than common TLS knowledge suggests. His arguments are logical, but lack evidentiary support.

This got me thinking though.

1. Are there TLSer's willing to out themselves as persons whom/who (grammar fail) transferred to the T-14 or even the T1 without stellar grades?
2. Do you, wise online community, still believe that there is no URM bump in the transfer game?

I think my reasons for 1. are obvious, however let me provide some background on 2.

Why do schools want URMs in the first place? Does this reason suddenly go away when the URMs complete their first year of law school? I ask these questions because I think that schools would actually take more URMs if they didn't have to report their scores to USNWR. If so, then why wouldn't the taking of URMs during the transfer process be encouraged? I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?


FWIW, (absolute nothing for the purposes of this discussion, really), I have Campos as my property professor.


Already a thread for that


Wow man. Thanks for helping me to realize that every person worthy of an opinion on the subject had already logged on to the internet at the same time and, after much work and deliberation, published a MASTER THREAD TO END ALL OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:roll: :roll: :roll: come on man, don't be an ass when you're trying to get someone to help you.

And if you search correctly, you will find a shitton of info.


There is a forum for discussing URM. There is also specifically a thread arguing the merits and reasons behind the URM boost. It's usually frowned upon to ask questions about the whole URM thing outside of that thread unless it is "Am I a URM" or "predict my cycle... URM".

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby sillyboots » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:51 am

I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing). If there is this class of people who don't come out, though, maybe it's because they don't want to fill in the explanatory gap; e.g., their aunt was leading the admission this cycle.

Again, though, I find this really unlikely. If you look at T14 transfer app threads, there are plenty of people saying things like "top 18% at a TT.. just decided to go for the hail mary lol" and they post their acceptance/rejection, and usually it's just as common TLS wisdom would dictate.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:42 pm

sillyboots wrote:I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing).


They would likely get shouted down as a flame.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:30 pm

sillyboots wrote:I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing). If there is this class of people who don't come out, though, maybe it's because they don't want to fill in the explanatory gap; e.g., their aunt was leading the admission this cycle.

Again, though, I find this really unlikely. If you look at T14 transfer app threads, there are plenty of people saying things like "top 18% at a TT.. just decided to go for the hail mary lol" and they post their acceptance/rejection, and usually it's just as common TLS wisdom would dictate.


I think there would be some who would be embarrassed and try to hide it in real life, but less so on TLS. I agree... You would think there would be TLS postings about how it isn't that hard to transfer. Campos is probably wrong about that and for me this hurts his credibility elsewhere.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:35 pm

chem wrote:
There is a forum for discussing URM. There is also specifically a thread arguing the merits and reasons behind the URM boost. It's usually frowned upon to ask questions about the whole URM thing outside of that thread unless it is "Am I a URM" or "predict my cycle... URM".


Cool story. I'm not trying to talk about "the whole URM thing," which is , by the way, a phrasing that makes you sound opposed to it, I am trying to ask if someone can articulate why schools would not care about 2L diversity.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:40 pm

Vronsky wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote: I mean, as a 2L transfer the URM would still count towards the schools diversity that is published by NALP, but the URMs less than stellar LSAT score would not hurt the school in the rankings game... Correct?


I don't think this is true. I don't think anything about the transfer class counts towards the numbers reported by schools to USNEWS. Think about it, why would schools report URM numbers from transfers, but not LSAT/GPA? I think the fact that most transfer classes are homogenous and non-AA or URM shows that schools simply cherry pick the best students from applicants without regard to other factors that are relevant for 1L admission.


USNWR does not consider anything about 2Ls or 3Ls. However, schools like to claim how diverse the whole school is on their websites, brochures, etc.. Additionally, a NALP or LSAC search will show diversity for the whole school, not just 1Ls.

You miss the point. The new school would not report to USNWR that they received a URM transfer, ever. They would get to say they had a more diverse school though, without having a URM knock down their precious LSAT median.

I do, however, agree with an above poster who mention that schools are primarily concerned with accepting transfer kids who will get a job. So long as they believe the URM will be employed, though, I can't see why they wouldn't provide this student with a boost.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby crossarmant » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:12 pm

sillyboots wrote:I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing). If there is this class of people who don't come out, though, maybe it's because they don't want to fill in the explanatory gap; e.g., their aunt was leading the admission this cycle.

Again, though, I find this really unlikely. If you look at T14 transfer app threads, there are plenty of people saying things like "top 18% at a TT.. just decided to go for the hail mary lol" and they post their acceptance/rejection, and usually it's just as common TLS wisdom would dictate.


Well, if you look at the Yahoo Transfer Group databases, you see all sorts of surprising things. Like people in low TT's at the 40% mark transferring to T25 schools; 15% at T4s transferring to T20s; Near median T3s transferring to T1s; 10% at T3s getting T14s... I'm only a 1L looking to transfer, but it looks like a lot of the data points to it being partly numbers based, but really kinda a crap shoot. I imagine real need to be in the area or some other compelling reason for that specific school helps a lot too.

Also, we have to remember, not everyone who transfers to places is on TLS. It's an isolated community and I imagine a good number of the folks who would be numerical outliers are not on here so they're not gloating in the transfer section. I imagine it's possible for more than "my aunt was on the admissions board."

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:44 pm

OP: I'm sure you meant "insinuating," right?

LawMan20
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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby LawMan20 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:15 pm

patrickd139 wrote:OP: I'm sure you meant "insinuating," right?


No, he meant to misspell it. No shit he meant insinuating.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Wholigan » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:45 pm

crossarmant wrote:
sillyboots wrote:I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing). If there is this class of people who don't come out, though, maybe it's because they don't want to fill in the explanatory gap; e.g., their aunt was leading the admission this cycle.

Again, though, I find this really unlikely. If you look at T14 transfer app threads, there are plenty of people saying things like "top 18% at a TT.. just decided to go for the hail mary lol" and they post their acceptance/rejection, and usually it's just as common TLS wisdom would dictate.


Well, if you look at the Yahoo Transfer Group databases, you see all sorts of surprising things. Like people in low TT's at the 40% mark transferring to T25 schools; 15% at T4s transferring to T20s; Near median T3s transferring to T1s; 10% at T3s getting T14s... I'm only a 1L looking to transfer, but it looks like a lot of the data points to it being partly numbers based, but really kinda a crap shoot. I imagine real need to be in the area or some other compelling reason for that specific school helps a lot too.

Also, we have to remember, not everyone who transfers to places is on TLS. It's an isolated community and I imagine a good number of the folks who would be numerical outliers are not on here so they're not gloating in the transfer section. I imagine it's possible for more than "my aunt was on the admissions board."


This is all true, but there a couple of reasons why I still thinks its fair to say Campos is being disingenuous by holding this alleged CLS transfer out as typical.

1) The very top schools are a little less of a crapshoot when it comes to transferring. The cut off from what I have gathered seems to be that the T12 schools give you a very good chance of getting an OCI job as a transfer, while there is a quick drop off below that. So the volume of people interested in transferring into T20/T25 schools is understandably lower, leading to more unpredictability, as you point out.

2) Of course not all transfers are on TLS. But within the T14 (with the exception of GULC) posters have generally reported based on firsthand knowledge that a typical transfer class will have somewhere from 0 to at most 3-4 people from TTT/TTTT schools. My class for example, had 0, at a school ranked lower than Columbia.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby quiver » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:52 pm

Wholigan wrote:
crossarmant wrote:
sillyboots wrote:I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing). If there is this class of people who don't come out, though, maybe it's because they don't want to fill in the explanatory gap; e.g., their aunt was leading the admission this cycle.

Again, though, I find this really unlikely. If you look at T14 transfer app threads, there are plenty of people saying things like "top 18% at a TT.. just decided to go for the hail mary lol" and they post their acceptance/rejection, and usually it's just as common TLS wisdom would dictate.


Well, if you look at the Yahoo Transfer Group databases, you see all sorts of surprising things. Like people in low TT's at the 40% mark transferring to T25 schools; 15% at T4s transferring to T20s; Near median T3s transferring to T1s; 10% at T3s getting T14s... I'm only a 1L looking to transfer, but it looks like a lot of the data points to it being partly numbers based, but really kinda a crap shoot. I imagine real need to be in the area or some other compelling reason for that specific school helps a lot too.

Also, we have to remember, not everyone who transfers to places is on TLS. It's an isolated community and I imagine a good number of the folks who would be numerical outliers are not on here so they're not gloating in the transfer section. I imagine it's possible for more than "my aunt was on the admissions board."


This is all true, but there a couple of reasons why I still thinks its fair to say Campos is being disingenuous by holding this alleged CLS transfer out as typical.

1) The very top schools are a little less of a crapshoot when it comes to transferring. The cut off from what I have gathered seems to be that the T12 schools give you a very good chance of getting an OCI job as a transfer, while there is a quick drop off below that. So the volume of people interested in transferring into T20/T25 schools is understandably lower, leading to more unpredictability, as you point out.

2) Of course not all transfers are on TLS. But within the T14 (with the exception of GULC) posters have generally reported based on firsthand knowledge that a typical transfer class will have somewhere from 0 to at most 3-4 people from TTT/TTTT schools. My class for example, had 0, at a school ranked lower than Columbia.
As usual, and as a CCN transfer, I agree with Wholigan here.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:06 pm

patrickd139 wrote:OP: I'm sure you meant "insinuating," right?


Yeah sorry for the misspell. Hey Patrick did you transfer from OU to UT? Mind sharing your stats, experience?

(assuming based on your TAR).

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:09 pm

Wholigan wrote:
crossarmant wrote:
sillyboots wrote:I have a hard time believing that TLSers that get an awesome transfer result despite poor grades would be shy to admit it. If anything, I think it would make you look pretty badass (i.e., you are a god of persuasive writing). If there is this class of people who don't come out, though, maybe it's because they don't want to fill in the explanatory gap; e.g., their aunt was leading the admission this cycle.

Again, though, I find this really unlikely. If you look at T14 transfer app threads, there are plenty of people saying things like "top 18% at a TT.. just decided to go for the hail mary lol" and they post their acceptance/rejection, and usually it's just as common TLS wisdom would dictate.


Well, if you look at the Yahoo Transfer Group databases, you see all sorts of surprising things. Like people in low TT's at the 40% mark transferring to T25 schools; 15% at T4s transferring to T20s; Near median T3s transferring to T1s; 10% at T3s getting T14s... I'm only a 1L looking to transfer, but it looks like a lot of the data points to it being partly numbers based, but really kinda a crap shoot. I imagine real need to be in the area or some other compelling reason for that specific school helps a lot too.

Also, we have to remember, not everyone who transfers to places is on TLS. It's an isolated community and I imagine a good number of the folks who would be numerical outliers are not on here so they're not gloating in the transfer section. I imagine it's possible for more than "my aunt was on the admissions board."


This is all true, but there a couple of reasons why I still thinks its fair to say Campos is being disingenuous by holding this alleged CLS transfer out as typical.

1) The very top schools are a little less of a crapshoot when it comes to transferring. The cut off from what I have gathered seems to be that the T12 schools give you a very good chance of getting an OCI job as a transfer, while there is a quick drop off below that. So the volume of people interested in transferring into T20/T25 schools is understandably lower, leading to more unpredictability, as you point out.

2) Of course not all transfers are on TLS. But within the T14 (with the exception of GULC) posters have generally reported based on firsthand knowledge that a typical transfer class will have somewhere from 0 to at most 3-4 people from TTT/TTTT schools. My class for example, had 0, at a school ranked lower than Columbia.


I'm not sure Campos meant to hold that student out as typical, but I'm not disagreeing with you. So maybe Columbia takes only super transfer students, but what about GW? FSU?

Campos reports that FSU students rebelled and made the school separate their homegrown GPA's from the newbies GPA. Based on that, I think they may graduate with two GPAs....?

By the way FSU had like 74 transfers in, 3 transfers out, and had a class of 300 or so. So like 25% of the 2Ls are transfers.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:13 pm

LawMan20 wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:OP: I'm sure you meant "insinuating," right?


No, he meant to misspell it. No shit he meant insinuating.

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Re: Campos on transferring

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:15 pm

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:OP: I'm sure you meant "insinuating," right?


Yeah sorry for the misspell. Hey Patrick did you transfer from OU to UT? Mind sharing your stats, experience?

(assuming based on your TAR).

Didn't transfer to UT, but I went there for UG and therefore hate all things OU. Ended up with several transfer options (including T14), but chose to stay at OU so I could put money toward an LLM.




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