DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

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raskolnikov32
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DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby raskolnikov32 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:04 pm

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Last edited by raskolnikov32 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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IAFG
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:21 pm

If you want to work in Chicago you should probably sit tight.

crazyblink653
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby crazyblink653 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:28 pm

if you're GPA is still in that range after second semester i wouldn't be surprised if you were in the top 1-2%. if you want chicago, you may actually be better off negotiating for a better scholarship and staying put. if you want more national reach and/or simply want a better degree, you're a virtual lock for most of the T14 and stand a good shot at Harvard and maybe Stanford.

raskolnikov32
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby raskolnikov32 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:36 pm

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Last edited by raskolnikov32 on Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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quiver
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby quiver » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:14 pm

crazyblink653 wrote:you're a virtual lock for most of the T14 and stand a good shot at Harvard and maybe Stanford.
I don't agree with this. I don't see anything coming from T2 as a lock. Certainly OP stands a high probability of getting multiple T14 acceptances but to say s/he is a lock for most of the T14 seems a bit extreme. YHS are almost certainly out of reach from this range as well. Conventional wisdom says that they aren't even worth the app fee unless you're top 1% of your class at a T2 (which OP may be); the vast majority of YHS transfers will be from T25 schools.

Obviously the best thing to do would be to blanket the T14 with apps and see what happens.

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YourCaptain
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby YourCaptain » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:16 pm

IAFG wrote:If you want to work in Chicago you should probably sit tight.


maybe not. i heard terrible things about depaul oci. a transfer to uchi if possible is credited.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Transferthrowaway » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:22 pm

You should ED UChicago. You're not getting HYS from DePaul and even ED UChi is a stretch, but it is a worthwhile stretch.

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IAFG
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:31 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you want to work in Chicago you should probably sit tight.


maybe not. i heard terrible things about depaul oci. a transfer to uchi if possible is credited.

Well Chicago sucks so it will suck for him has a transfer and as DePaul top 1%. It is not my impression that people do substantially better as transfers than they do staying put and gunning massmailing. But I should probably limit myself further and say, transfers to NU probably would have been as employable gunning employment from their old schools.

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Grizz
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Grizz » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:55 pm

I agree with IAFG; if you're dead set on Chi, stay. If you want to work in NYC or somewhere else, leave.

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YourCaptain
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby YourCaptain » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:57 pm

IAFG wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:
IAFG wrote:If you want to work in Chicago you should probably sit tight.


maybe not. i heard terrible things about depaul oci. a transfer to uchi if possible is credited.

Well Chicago sucks so it will suck for him has a transfer and as DePaul top 1%. It is not my impression that people do substantially better as transfers than they do staying put and gunning massmailing. But I should probably limit myself further and say, transfers to NU probably would have been as employable gunning employment from their old schools.


well i agree with this. only thing to keep in mind is that apparently they had 9 offices total or something. i cant remember what the depaul transfers at my school told me but i was shocked.

so he'll be treated the same except more opportunities to interview. oci is just easier in that regard.

raskolnikov32
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby raskolnikov32 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:28 am

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IAFG
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:17 am

raskolnikov32 wrote:At this point it's only a hypothetical calculus, but I'm trying to decide if the ~$70K difference between DePaul and, say, Northwestern would be worth it for an "easier" OCI and any unforeseen benefits of a more highly regarded NU degree over the span of a career.

And I am trying to tell you that I think it isn't. Unless, as has been said, you would rather have access to NYC/other non-midwestern markets. Which, if you strike out, you may well wish you did have. I just don't get the sense that NU transfers did better than their "home school" stats would have gotten them in the first place. If that's true, you're talking about spending a lot of money for some vague concept of future value to your career.

I am not sure you should assume OCI would be "easier" from here because I am worried you would transfer and hustle less. I am not sure how useful the whole "treated like a median student as a transfer" rule of thumb is, but I do think it applies to how much you should hustle: don't assume OCI is going to be enough, massmail, sign up for any extra career fairs/diversity fairs you can get access to, etc.

Snape
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Snape » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:16 pm

It seems you want Chicago Legal Market and if you want it long term it seems a no-brainer to me to ED U CHicago. You will have your 3.9+ from Depaul sealed forever on your resume and a diploma from U Chi in Chicago on your wall. Chicago legal market is NOT easy to crack and if you were accepted there it should be no brainer. I also think Northwestern would be a no-brainer if you don't get the ED to Chicago....there is just too big of a difference between Depaul and NU or Chi....the legal market isn't what it was ten years ago when top 5% at Depaul or Loyoal or Kent could land a person a good job....If you want Chicago Law then transferring to Chi or NU should be EASY! Michigan is a stretch because you are slightly leaving the market but I doubt it would hurt you. HYS would be nice but I doubt even top of your class would get you in....anywhere else in T-14 you risk being seen seen as flight risk since you would be leaving your desired market....

Good Luck

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IAFG
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:17 pm

Snape wrote:It seems you want Chicago Legal Market and if you want it long term it seems a no-brainer to me to ED U CHicago. You will have your 3.9+ from Depaul sealed forever on your resume and a diploma from U Chi in Chicago on your wall. Chicago legal market is NOT easy to crack and if you were accepted there it should be no brainer. I also think Northwestern would be a no-brainer if you don't get the ED to Chicago....there is just too big of a difference between Depaul and NU or Chi....the legal market isn't what it was ten years ago when top 5% at Depaul or Loyoal or Kent could land a person a good job....If you want Chicago Law then transferring to Chi or NU should be EASY! Michigan is a stretch because you are slightly leaving the market but I doubt it would hurt you. HYS would be nice but I doubt even top of your class would get you in....anywhere else in T-14 you risk being seen seen as flight risk since you would be leaving your desired market....

Good Luck

But transfers aren't magically U Chicago or Northwestern students for the purposes of OCI.

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Grizz
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Grizz » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:24 pm

IAFG wrote:
Snape wrote:It seems you want Chicago Legal Market and if you want it long term it seems a no-brainer to me to ED U CHicago. You will have your 3.9+ from Depaul sealed forever on your resume and a diploma from U Chi in Chicago on your wall. Chicago legal market is NOT easy to crack and if you were accepted there it should be no brainer. I also think Northwestern would be a no-brainer if you don't get the ED to Chicago....there is just too big of a difference between Depaul and NU or Chi....the legal market isn't what it was ten years ago when top 5% at Depaul or Loyoal or Kent could land a person a good job....If you want Chicago Law then transferring to Chi or NU should be EASY! Michigan is a stretch because you are slightly leaving the market but I doubt it would hurt you. HYS would be nice but I doubt even top of your class would get you in....anywhere else in T-14 you risk being seen seen as flight risk since you would be leaving your desired market....

Good Luck

But transfers aren't magically U Chicago or Northwestern students for the purposes of OCI.

Credited. These firms know DePaul, I mean c'mon.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Transferthrowaway » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:39 pm

IAFG wrote:
Snape wrote:It seems you want Chicago Legal Market and if you want it long term it seems a no-brainer to me to ED U CHicago. You will have your 3.9+ from Depaul sealed forever on your resume and a diploma from U Chi in Chicago on your wall. Chicago legal market is NOT easy to crack and if you were accepted there it should be no brainer. I also think Northwestern would be a no-brainer if you don't get the ED to Chicago....there is just too big of a difference between Depaul and NU or Chi....the legal market isn't what it was ten years ago when top 5% at Depaul or Loyoal or Kent could land a person a good job....If you want Chicago Law then transferring to Chi or NU should be EASY! Michigan is a stretch because you are slightly leaving the market but I doubt it would hurt you. HYS would be nice but I doubt even top of your class would get you in....anywhere else in T-14 you risk being seen seen as flight risk since you would be leaving your desired market....

Good Luck

But transfers aren't magically U Chicago or Northwestern students for the purposes of OCI.

I may not magically have become a UChicago student during OCI by transferring, but the offers I received easily transcended what I would have had by staying at my T40 school. There is a substantial boost to just having the new school on your resume.

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deebs
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby deebs » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:15 pm

A guy that transferred from WUSTL to NU got chicago big law when he otherwise wouldn't have, though people in Chicago do love DePaul. OP would have better chances just starting to network now with depaul alums at firms, and then follow up with those come July

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IAFG
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:51 am

deebs wrote:A guy that transferred from WUSTL to NU got chicago big law when he otherwise wouldn't have, though people in Chicago do love DePaul. OP would have better chances just starting to network now with depaul alums at firms, and then follow up with those come July

What is your basis for this assumption?

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traehekat
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby traehekat » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:40 pm

absolutely everything that IAFG and grizz have said is credited. if you want chi, stay put at depaul and try to bump that scholarship up to cover full tuition if it's not already there.

sincerely,
an NU transfer

Transferthrowaway
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Transferthrowaway » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:41 pm

I'll concede that NU is probably not worth it and OP would be better off staying at DePaul. But I still believe that UChicago is a large enough jump in both opportunities and prestige to be worth the increased tuition and hassle of transferring.

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traehekat
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby traehekat » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:48 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:I'll concede that NU is probably not worth it and OP would be better off staying at DePaul. But I still believe that UChicago is a large enough jump in both opportunities and prestige to be worth the increased tuition and hassle of transferring.


personally i wouldn't pay 70k for something as abstract as "prestige" or "opportunities." the same firms that go to chicago are going to NU. you actually believe they will view the same exact person with the same exact grades from the same exact school differently if they are interviewing them as a UChi student with no UChi grades instead of a NU student with no NU grades?

Transferthrowaway
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Transferthrowaway » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:11 pm

traehekat wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:I'll concede that NU is probably not worth it and OP would be better off staying at DePaul. But I still believe that UChicago is a large enough jump in both opportunities and prestige to be worth the increased tuition and hassle of transferring.


personally i wouldn't pay 70k for something as abstract as "prestige" or "opportunities." the same firms that go to chicago are going to NU. you actually believe they will view the same exact person with the same exact grades from the same exact school differently if they are interviewing them as a UChi student with no UChi grades instead of a NU student with no NU grades?


To be honest, I do actually believe that. The firm views the UChicago student more favorably because they go to UChicago, ceteris paribus. This is an unlikely scenario to begin with though - the UChicago transfer will in all likelihood have stronger 1L grades than the NU transfer.

Also, I don't think "opportunities" is as abstract as you make it out to be. There is greater mobility and flexibility in the UChicago degree. Short-term, UChicago and Northwestern definitely do not have the same quality of OCI (WLRK, GDC, Irell, Munger, and the list goes on). Long-term, clerkships and academia, while unlikely, are more easily achievable from UChicago.

Don't get me wrong. NU is a great school, but it's not UChicago. So yes, I think there is a difference between transferring to UChicago and transferring to NU.

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IAFG
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:14 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:
traehekat wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:I'll concede that NU is probably not worth it and OP would be better off staying at DePaul. But I still believe that UChicago is a large enough jump in both opportunities and prestige to be worth the increased tuition and hassle of transferring.


personally i wouldn't pay 70k for something as abstract as "prestige" or "opportunities." the same firms that go to chicago are going to NU. you actually believe they will view the same exact person with the same exact grades from the same exact school differently if they are interviewing them as a UChi student with no UChi grades instead of a NU student with no NU grades?


To be honest, I do actually believe that. The firm views the UChicago student more favorably because they go to UChicago, ceteris paribus. This is an unlikely scenario to begin with though - the UChicago transfer will in all likelihood have stronger 1L grades than the NU transfer.

Also, I don't think "opportunities" is as abstract as you make it out to be. There is greater mobility and flexibility in the UChicago degree. Short-term, UChicago and Northwestern definitely do not have the same quality of OCI (WLRK, GDC, Irell, Munger, and the list goes on). Long-term, clerkships and academia, while unlikely, are more easily achievable from UChicago.

Don't get me wrong, NU is a great school. It's just not UChicago.

But transfers aren't UChi students. They're UChi incoming transfers. They're not getting WLRK or Irell or Munger (if they weren't getting it from their 1L school).

I am not saying transferring is necessarily worthless, but I do think people over-estimate how much it will help, whether they're transferring to NU or UChi or HLS.

ETA: and as a pure point of pride, there are people from my class going to GDC, WLRK, etc.

Transferthrowaway
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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby Transferthrowaway » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:21 pm

IAFG wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:
traehekat wrote:
Transferthrowaway wrote:I'll concede that NU is probably not worth it and OP would be better off staying at DePaul. But I still believe that UChicago is a large enough jump in both opportunities and prestige to be worth the increased tuition and hassle of transferring.


personally i wouldn't pay 70k for something as abstract as "prestige" or "opportunities." the same firms that go to chicago are going to NU. you actually believe they will view the same exact person with the same exact grades from the same exact school differently if they are interviewing them as a UChi student with no UChi grades instead of a NU student with no NU grades?


To be honest, I do actually believe that. The firm views the UChicago student more favorably because they go to UChicago, ceteris paribus. This is an unlikely scenario to begin with though - the UChicago transfer will in all likelihood have stronger 1L grades than the NU transfer.

Also, I don't think "opportunities" is as abstract as you make it out to be. There is greater mobility and flexibility in the UChicago degree. Short-term, UChicago and Northwestern definitely do not have the same quality of OCI (WLRK, GDC, Irell, Munger, and the list goes on). Long-term, clerkships and academia, while unlikely, are more easily achievable from UChicago.

Don't get me wrong, NU is a great school. It's just not UChicago.

But transfers aren't UChi students. They're UChi incoming transfers. They're not getting WLRK or Irell or Munger (if they weren't getting it from their 1L school).

I am not saying transferring is necessarily worthless, but I do think people over-estimate how much it will help, whether they're transferring to NU or UChi or HLS.


I disagree with the bolded part of your statement and I don't think you can assert that as fact. I received offers from top firms where I know my mass-mailed resume would have gone straight into the trash had I stayed at my podunk Southern T-40 1L school. There is a 2L who had prestigious DC firm and V5 offers that he would not have gotten from his 1L T-25 school. A 3L the year before me received a V3 offer that he would have never gotten from his 1L T-30 school.

I know it doesn't make sense and you want to contend otherwise, but there is an immediate and tangible bump just by transferring.

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Re: DePaul Top 5% ---> NU, UChi, Mich, T14

Postby IAFG » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:30 pm

Transferthrowaway wrote:I disagree with the bolded part of your statement and I don't think you can assert that as fact. I received offers from top firms where I know my mass-mailed resume would have gone straight into the trash had I stayed at my podunk Southern T40 1L school. A 3L the year before me received a V3 offer that he would have never gotten from his 1L school.

There is an immediate and tangible bump just by transferring.


Was the V3 WLRK? I was careful to frame my answer narrowly. I will concede that certainly some transfers benefit some of the time, but for the large majority, a little hustle would have gotten many transfers where they are more cheaply, and even transfers to HLS didn't just get a ticket to WLRK or the prestigious boutiques. As traehkat already said, the rare exception probably isn't worth the cost to most people.

Top 1% at DePaul who wants to stay in Chicago with a big scholly is a great example of the sort of person who isn't likely to gain from the prestige jockeying. When you need to transfer to get more national reach because your school isn't in your target market, the math will of course change.




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