transfer from Indiana?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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RMstratosphere
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby RMstratosphere » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:38 am

downstream wrote:You need to stop thinking about potential rankings and worry about owning second semester and it is a different beast than first semester. Legal Professions is a total black box and has the potential to really harm a GPA. Conlaw is very professor dependent and is a tough class, maybe the toughest class you will take all year. Property is basically Torts all over again.

The kid who xferred to Columbia was likely top 5%, nobody knows these things for sure. The Northwestern kids were all in the top 10%, some closer to top 5% and above. Transferring is never a guarantee. All you can do is work your butt off again but keep in mind that some kids will be pushing even harder second semester than first semester while others will have gotten their grades back and will quit trying.

Congrats on a hell of a good start.

EDIT: you'll only get UVA if you are a Virginia resident and HLS if you are #1 or #2 which will be a tough climb from where you currently are.


I agree with nearly all of the above.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby RMstratosphere » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:38 am

Edit: I double posted on accident. My apologies.

eastcoast_iub
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby eastcoast_iub » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:31 am

RMstratosphere wrote:
eastcoast_iub wrote:RMStratosphere, Do you know the class rank of the person who xferred to Columbia?

I got a 3.73, which is top 5% based on last 2 years' numbers. Thinking of applying to Columbia, NYU, Penn, UVA, and Harvard (long shot).

What are my chances? And are all of these schools worth xferring to and leaving 40k on the table?

Goal is DC BigLaw...


I don't know off-hand, but I do know that he is on TLS. I'll take a look around for his handle (I don't remember it) and send you a PM. At any rate, congratulations on the great start.

Your transfer chances are obviously dependent on your second semester performance. As has been said many time, second semester is challenging in different ways but you'll have to maintain or improve your grades to stay competitive. That disclaimer being said, I'd evaluate your chances, assuming that you are in the top 5% after second semester, as...

Harvard: Not accepted unless you are top 1%. If you do get accepted here you have a real decision on your hands. It will come down to your risk tolerance, desired career path, and access to capital.
UVA: Not accepted, but I wouldn't counsel leaving IU's money for UVA anyway. The DC market is intensely competitive (some say the most competitive market) and UVA students aren't doing tremendously well there as it is.
Penn: Probably accepted.
NYU: Maybe accepted, but again, I wouldn't suggest transferring to NYU instead of keeping your GPA and $ at IU.
Columbia: Maybe accepted. I think transferring to Columbia and leaving $40k/yr on the table can make sense in a lot of situations depending on your goals.

If you're set on DC Biglaw from IU your only two viable options are Jones Day and Arnold & Porter. IU has a strong relationship with both firm (JD's DC office). I would suggest you start talking with Dean Keller and the folks in OCPD about your goals in the near term.


Thanks for the detailed answer. What are you basing your answers for each of the above schools on? Anecdotal evidence or something more?

Also, as far as big law, DC is preferable, but I am open to Philly, DC, or New York. Given my flexibility, would you say it would be worth it transferring to NYU, Columbia, or Penn?

Financially, I don't have any undergrad debt and I saved some $$ up before school, so am not in as bad a position as most. To me, it would seem that the greatly increased probability of BigLaw from any of the above schools (even Virginia - from looking at their career placement stats on the school's site, they seem to do very well, at least from Class of 2010 stats) would make the debt load worth it.

All that being said, I know it's all hypothetical and contingent on my second semester grades. But even giving myself some leeway, and saying for the sake of argument that I fell to 10th percentile, wouldn't I at least have a decent chance at Penn or one of the NY schools, given the relatively large number of xfers that the latter accept?

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RMstratosphere
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby RMstratosphere » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:49 am

eastcoast_iub wrote:
RMstratosphere wrote:
eastcoast_iub wrote:RMStratosphere, Do you know the class rank of the person who xferred to Columbia?

I got a 3.73, which is top 5% based on last 2 years' numbers. Thinking of applying to Columbia, NYU, Penn, UVA, and Harvard (long shot).

What are my chances? And are all of these schools worth xferring to and leaving 40k on the table?

Goal is DC BigLaw...


I don't know off-hand, but I do know that he is on TLS. I'll take a look around for his handle (I don't remember it) and send you a PM. At any rate, congratulations on the great start.

Your transfer chances are obviously dependent on your second semester performance. As has been said many time, second semester is challenging in different ways but you'll have to maintain or improve your grades to stay competitive. That disclaimer being said, I'd evaluate your chances, assuming that you are in the top 5% after second semester, as...

Harvard: Not accepted unless you are top 1%. If you do get accepted here you have a real decision on your hands. It will come down to your risk tolerance, desired career path, and access to capital.
UVA: Not accepted, but I wouldn't counsel leaving IU's money for UVA anyway. The DC market is intensely competitive (some say the most competitive market) and UVA students aren't doing tremendously well there as it is.
Penn: Probably accepted.
NYU: Maybe accepted, but again, I wouldn't suggest transferring to NYU instead of keeping your GPA and $ at IU.
Columbia: Maybe accepted. I think transferring to Columbia and leaving $40k/yr on the table can make sense in a lot of situations depending on your goals.

If you're set on DC Biglaw from IU your only two viable options are Jones Day and Arnold & Porter. IU has a strong relationship with both firm (JD's DC office). I would suggest you start talking with Dean Keller and the folks in OCPD about your goals in the near term.


Thanks for the detailed answer. What are you basing your answers for each of the above schools on? Anecdotal evidence or something more?

Also, as far as big law, DC is preferable, but I am open to Philly, DC, or New York. Given my flexibility, would you say it would be worth it transferring to NYU, Columbia, or Penn?

Financially, I don't have any undergrad debt and I saved some $$ up before school, so am not in as bad a position as most. To me, it would seem that the greatly increased probability of BigLaw from any of the above schools (even Virginia - from looking at their career placement stats on the school's site, they seem to do very well, at least from Class of 2010 stats) would make the debt load worth it.

All that being said, I know it's all hypothetical and contingent on my second semester grades. But even giving myself some leeway, and saying for the sake of argument that I fell to 10th percentile, wouldn't I at least have a decent chance at Penn or one of the NY schools, given the relatively large number of xfers that the latter accept?


Sorry to have been so summary in my suggestions. Transfer prospects are notoriously difficult to predict so I admittedly am relying on my own experience as well as others on TLS. I appreciate that that is not as solid as data, but I hope it helps nonetheless.

Of NYU, Columbia, or Penn, I would suggest that only Columbia would be worth your transferring. The reasons is that Columbia transfers do very well at OCI while it seems that those reporting on TLS did less well at NYU and Penn.

I don’t want to comment too much on the debt load incurred by transferring. You seem well aware of the data on big law positions, debt service, and the like. Whether you’re comfortable with taking on extra debt is entirely personal.

The reason that I was less enthusiastic about your chances at NYU, CLS, and Penn is that we had a student with a slightly higher (~.02) GPA at the end of 1L who was denied from Penn as a transfer. The closer you are to top 5% than top 10%, the better your odds will be.

downstream
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby downstream » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:47 am

Keep in mind- you will be able to interview with Jones Day and Arnold & Porter at all of the potential transfer schools you mentioned. FWIW, I know several people at NU that swung DC Biglaw as transfers. This is somewhat counter-intuitive but sometimes it is better to go to a school that is less DC focused if you want DC. A school like NU has all of the DC firms interviewing but most of the top students want NYC or Chicago so it is somewhat less competitive to get callbacks than it would be at a GULC, for example. I'd wager that it is probably the same way at Michigan and Penn.

If I were you, I would apply ED to UChicago. You will likely be deferred but if you nail your second semester, you may get in. What professors do you have?

Another thing- IU is really on the rise and people think very highly of it. As for as the best law overall law school experience is concerned, IU really has no equal.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby RMstratosphere » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:26 pm

downstream wrote:Keep in mind- you will be able to interview with Jones Day and Arnold & Porter at all of the potential transfer schools you mentioned. FWIW, I know several people at NU that swung DC Biglaw as transfers. This is somewhat counter-intuitive but sometimes it is better to go to a school that is less DC focused if you want DC. A school like NU has all of the DC firms interviewing but most of the top students want NYC or Chicago so it is somewhat less competitive to get callbacks than it would be at a GULC, for example. I'd wager that it is probably the same way at Michigan and Penn.

If I were you, I would apply ED to UChicago. You will likely be deferred but if you nail your second semester, you may get in. What professors do you have?

Another thing- IU is really on the rise and people think very highly of it. As for as the best law overall law school experience is concerned, IU really has no equal.


Bloomington, FTW.

eastcoast_iub
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby eastcoast_iub » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:54 pm

downstream wrote:Keep in mind- you will be able to interview with Jones Day and Arnold & Porter at all of the potential transfer schools you mentioned. FWIW, I know several people at NU that swung DC Biglaw as transfers. This is somewhat counter-intuitive but sometimes it is better to go to a school that is less DC focused if you want DC. A school like NU has all of the DC firms interviewing but most of the top students want NYC or Chicago so it is somewhat less competitive to get callbacks than it would be at a GULC, for example. I'd wager that it is probably the same way at Michigan and Penn.

If I were you, I would apply ED to UChicago. You will likely be deferred but if you nail your second semester, you may get in. What professors do you have?

Another thing- IU is really on the rise and people think very highly of it. As for as the best law overall law school experience is concerned, IU really has no equal.


That is an interesting way to look at it, although it is kind of counter-intuitive to go to Chicago to get to DC...

Why so gung-ho about Chicago? Same reasoning as you laid out for NU, except even better OCI prospects at Chicago?

I have W for ConLaw, G for Legal Professions, and S for Property.

I am content at my old school so far, I like that it's not cutthroat, but I'm a big-city guy at heart so the experience factor is negligible for me.
Last edited by eastcoast_iub on Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

downstream
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Re: transfer from Indiana?

Postby downstream » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:28 pm

eastcoast_iub wrote:
downstream wrote:Keep in mind- you will be able to interview with Jones Day and Arnold & Porter at all of the potential transfer schools you mentioned. FWIW, I know several people at NU that swung DC Biglaw as transfers. This is somewhat counter-intuitive but sometimes it is better to go to a school that is less DC focused if you want DC. A school like NU has all of the DC firms interviewing but most of the top students want NYC or Chicago so it is somewhat less competitive to get callbacks than it would be at a GULC, for example. I'd wager that it is probably the same way at Michigan and Penn.

If I were you, I would apply ED to UChicago. You will likely be deferred but if you nail your second semester, you may get in. What professors do you have?

Another thing- IU is really on the rise and people think very highly of it. As for as the best law overall law school experience is concerned, IU really has no equal.


That is an interesting way to look at it, although it is kind of counter-intuitive to go to Chicago to get to DC...

Why so gung-ho about Chicago? Same reasoning as you laid out for NU, except even better OCI prospects at Chicago?

I have David Williams for ConLaw, Geyh for Legal Professions, and Stake for Property.

I am content at IU so far, I like that it's not cutthroat, but I'm a big-city guy at heart so the experience factor is negligible for me.



UChicago is just on a different level than the other schools you mentioned. You could argue that Columbia is up there too but Columbia has a hell of a lot more students so I think the value is somewhat diluted. Also, you will be competing with like 90 other xfers at Columbia OCI in an already cutthroat environment whereas UChicago will only take 15 xfers tops which means you will have less OCI competition. So, yes, UChicago has better OCI prospects than the other schools you mentioned and certainly better clerkship/academia prospects *if* you do well once there.

As far as Chicago BIGLAW is concerned, it's tough for everybody these days but I think the difference between UChicago and Northwestern is really negligible. It's going to come down to how you interview because you will get the same OCI shot at either school. Keep in mind that classes are starting to expand ever so slightly in Chicago (Kirkland at 50+, Sidley at 40+, Mayer Brown at 25-30, Winston at 20-25, Jenner at 15-20, Latham/Jones Day about the same as Jenner) but it is still hard as hell to crack and takes more than good grades. I think Indiana students will do just as well in Chicago as UIUC students IF THEY HUSTLE. Even better if they have ties.

Geyh for LP? That's interesting. Stake was tough in property, I think MC exams are difficult. Williams will be the best professor you ever have.




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