T2 to Cornell Transfer?

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Stay or Cornell?

Stay
20
43%
Cornell
26
57%
 
Total votes: 46

crazyblink653
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:13 pm

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby crazyblink653 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:05 pm

mrloblaw wrote:I think the OP is somewhat over-glamorizing Cornell. Sure, it's an Ivy and a T14, but it's also consistently the worst ranked Ivy law school, has always been at or near the bottom of the T14, and is the only T14 to ever be ranked worse than 14th.


pretty sure this is wrong..i thought the T14 referred to the schools that have been ranked 14th or higher since the rankings came out?

however, i agree that you're placing way too much emphasis on its prestige while not giving as much weight to the fact that you're locked out of OCI and the administration seems extremely unhelpful. if all you want is a prestigious degree, then go. if you want the best chance at lining up a SA position for next summer (and thus a shot at gainful employment upon graduation), you're probably better off staying.

also, while there is some credence to the "your school will always be with you" argument, i've also heard that 5-6 years out, it's more about the type of connections you have and your ability to bring in clients. if you can consistently please and retain clients, then a firm isn't really going to care if you went to Cornell over SUNY.

mrloblaw
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:15 pm

crazyblink653 wrote:pretty sure this is wrong..i thought the T14 referred to the schools that have been ranked 14th or higher since the rankings came out?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=213 1987.

crazyblink653
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:13 pm

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby crazyblink653 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:56 pm

mrloblaw wrote:
crazyblink653 wrote:pretty sure this is wrong..i thought the T14 referred to the schools that have been ranked 14th or higher since the rankings came out?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=213 1987.


interesting..i stand corrected then.

AlvinJames
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 am

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:09 pm

Is graduating jobless from Cornell a strong possibility though? I took a look at the stats on this website, the Cornell c/o 2009 stats for employment 9-months after graduation are 181 out of 195 students employed, 150 of those working for BigLaw. At 93% employment rate 9-months out (and 2009 was a bad year, at that), is going jobless for more than 9-months after graduation a real possibility if you're going to be at the least, top 50% of your class?

Also, does being jobless upon graduation at Cornell amount to any serious long-term risk of not being able to find a good BigLaw job? What if I really want the Cornell "name" above all else? Can I leverage a risk of being unemployed for 1 year, or can my career consequences be more severe from not getting an SA / unemployed upon graduation?

As far as the OCI comparison, at my current school I was pre-selected for all of my bids for OCI, which include 8 reputable V100 BigLaw NYC firms. From those more experienced with OCI, what would my chances be for CBs / SA offers with 8 V100 OCI interviews - assuming I'm not an idiot and will be able to interview decently well? In contrast, I would be eligible for Cornell's later OCIs (in late September), which will have a few BigLaw NYC firms (I heard rumors of Weil and Skadden coming in Sept, but not sure). Cornell does a lottery drawing for OCI interviews, so considering I will be competing with people who fared not-so-well on the August OCIs, I can predict I will get maybe 2-3 OCIs with BigLaw. Which leads me to my next question: what are my

Chances of landing BigLaw job at current school in August OCI with 10 interviews, 8 of them V100 firms, or,

Chances of landing BigLaw job at Cornell in their Sept OCI with only 2-3 (estimate) interviews with top firms like Skadden or Weil?

AlvinJames
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 am

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:11 pm

And, by the way, thank you everyone for the input, opinions, and analysis. This thread has so far been extremely helpful for me, and I really do appreciate the comments.

mrloblaw
Posts: 534
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:41 pm

AlvinJames wrote:Is graduating jobless from Cornell a strong possibility though? . . . What if I really want the Cornell "name" above all else?


There are the only two parts of your post I'm at all qualified to comment on, because I haven't been through 2L OCIs yet.

While Cornell advertises very strong employment numbers, you have to realize that you aren't going to be one random data point out of the 100% of Cornell grads. You're going to be a transfer student, which may or may not come with a negative stigma with regard to the firms you interview with, and you will have been shut out of the most important round of 2L OCIs. Offsetting that somewhat is your (presumably stellar) 1L GPA.

Given that situation, I'd bet on having somewhat worse employment prospects than the average Cornell student, at least for your 2L summer. I'm also unqualified to comment on what a non-biglaw 2L summer job might do to your post-graduation prospects.

In regard to the Cornell name thing, that really does seem to be what you're banking on here. You mentioned a cost difference of around 50k. Part of what you'd be getting for that 50k investment is the Cornell name on your diploma, career effects notwithstanding. The rest is a Vegas-style gamble that you'll end up with a better career out of Cornell than you would at your T2. Whether or not the gamble is worth the risk is your call to make alone, and given your rather unique situation, I'm not sure that any of us can tell you what the probability is that the gamble will pay off. I just see a lot of risks with Cornell that aren't there with other T14s.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:43 pm

AlvinJames wrote:Is graduating jobless from Cornell a strong possibility though? I took a look at the stats on this website, the Cornell c/o 2009 stats for employment 9-months after graduation are 181 out of 195 students employed, 150 of those working for BigLaw. At 93% employment rate 9-months out (and 2009 was a bad year, at that), is going jobless for more than 9-months after graduation a real possibility if you're going to be at the least, top 50% of your class?

I believe that people who had been deferred were counted as "employed", including those whose deferrals eventually turned into terminations.

AlvinJames wrote:Also, does being jobless upon graduation at Cornell amount to any serious long-term risk of not being able to find a good BigLaw job? What if I really want the Cornell "name" above all else? Can I leverage a risk of being unemployed for 1 year, or can my career consequences be more severe from not getting an SA / unemployed upon graduation?

If you don't get BigLaw for 2L summer, you should assume that you will never have a chance at BigLaw. 3L and lateral BigLaw hiring is almost exclusively focused on people who already have BigLaw and are trying to move up/around. The only chance that you would have of getting a BigLaw job after striking out as a 2L would be to get a prestigious clerkship. At Cornell that would at least be possible, but far from guaranteed (and if the administration is that hostile to transfers they're not going to help you get a clerkship).

keg411
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby keg411 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:54 pm

OP -- if you want to talk to someone nice in the Career Services department at Cornell, talk to Suzanne Hess, not Dean DeRosa. She can probably answer your questions better than anyone ITT can.

However, I still say despite the "prestige", you should stay at your old school, though, since you can't do AJF. Seriously, Cornell was one of my top choices to transfer and I immediately withdrew when I found out I couldn't do AJF. Not doing AJF should have been a dealbreaker for you as well and you might as well just stick out your current school (though I'm surprised you didn't get into GULC, unless you didn't apply).

AlvinJames
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 am

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:56 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
AlvinJames wrote:Also, does being jobless upon graduation at Cornell amount to any serious long-term risk of not being able to find a good BigLaw job? What if I really want the Cornell "name" above all else? Can I leverage a risk of being unemployed for 1 year, or can my career consequences be more severe from not getting an SA / unemployed upon graduation?

If you don't get BigLaw for 2L summer, you should assume that you will never have a chance at BigLaw. 3L and lateral BigLaw hiring is almost exclusively focused on people who already have BigLaw and are trying to move up/around. The only chance that you would have of getting a BigLaw job after striking out as a 2L would be to get a prestigious clerkship. At Cornell that would at least be possible, but far from guaranteed (and if the administration is that hostile to transfers they're not going to help you get a clerkship).


Wow... I never knew it was THAT bad... So basically, the OCI at my current school is my only shot at BigLaw, aside from any of my mass-mailings hitting -- the chances of which from a T2 would be almost a miracle. And while I may get into BigLaw through a prestigious clerkship (assuming I want to go that way), being at Cornell would only slightly increase my odds of that happening. Did I get that about right?

AlvinJames
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:12 am

Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:04 pm

keg411 wrote:OP -- if you want to talk to someone nice in the Career Services department at Cornell, talk to Suzanne Hess, not Dean DeRosa. She can probably answer your questions better than anyone ITT can.

However, I still say despite the "prestige", you should stay at your old school, though, since you can't do AJF. Seriously, Cornell was one of my top choices to transfer and I immediately withdrew when I found out I couldn't do AJF. Not doing AJF should have been a dealbreaker for you as well and you might as well just stick out your current school (though I'm surprised you didn't get into GULC, unless you didn't apply).


I didn't apply to GULC... Possibly I should have -- but I never had the goal of going to DC, and I didn't really have a flare for that school. I applied to T-14 only, all of the schools in the New York area, and some other more prestigious schools (like Michigan), which I found interesting, and would have went to had I been accepted.

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thedogship
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby thedogship » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:52 am

AlvinJames wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
AlvinJames wrote:Also, does being jobless upon graduation at Cornell amount to any serious long-term risk of not being able to find a good BigLaw job? What if I really want the Cornell "name" above all else? Can I leverage a risk of being unemployed for 1 year, or can my career consequences be more severe from not getting an SA / unemployed upon graduation?

If you don't get BigLaw for 2L summer, you should assume that you will never have a chance at BigLaw. 3L and lateral BigLaw hiring is almost exclusively focused on people who already have BigLaw and are trying to move up/around. The only chance that you would have of getting a BigLaw job after striking out as a 2L would be to get a prestigious clerkship. At Cornell that would at least be possible, but far from guaranteed (and if the administration is that hostile to transfers they're not going to help you get a clerkship).


Wow... I never knew it was THAT bad... So basically, the OCI at my current school is my only shot at BigLaw, aside from any of my mass-mailings hitting -- the chances of which from a T2 would be almost a miracle. And while I may get into BigLaw through a prestigious clerkship (assuming I want to go that way), being at Cornell would only slightly increase my odds of that happening. Did I get that about right?


Unfortunately, yes, it is true that your shot at BigLaw basically comes down to 2L interviewing. Effectively, you're either in or you're out based on how that goes. Big firms are much more likely to take laterals from other big firms than from smaller firms; it's almost as if they treat it as part of the "club." Cracking the BigLaw nut if you strike out in 2L interviews is very difficult if you don't have some real connection. The volume of mass mailing resumes that these firms get from kids who didn't get interviews with them is absurd. There is no way that they really sort through those things. However, firms will look through the resumes they get in a resume drop when they interview at a school (usually where the firm can only interview 20 kids on they day they interview, but it willing to look at resumes from kids at that school who tried but couldn't get an interview with that firm; this is much more likely at schools that use a lottery system for OCI and not the "employer-choice" method or "merit" method of assigning interviews). If you're shut out of OCI at Cornell, I can only assume you'd be shut out of the resume drops as well, but that may be something to look into.

Getting into BigLaw via a prestigious clerkship, while possible, is also a long shot. First, prestigious clerkships typically go to kids who had the qualifications to get a BigLaw job in the first place but elected to either seek out clerkships instead or kids who got offers from BigLaw firms, but are deferring starting at those firms in order to do the clerkship first. Second, competition for prestigious clerkships is as intense as that for BigLaw jobs. Both pools are overflowing with qualified kids and few will be lucky enough to grab the brass ring.

That is why, if BigLaw is your immediate goal out of school, this is really an odds game for you - you need to pick the situation that is going to give you the best odds of getting the job you want, even if that chance is small. At your current school, given that you are top 10%, you at least have potential access to those BigLaw employers, even if not a ton of them are interviewing at your school. You at least may have the opportunity to get interviews, show them that you were good enough for Cornell to accept you but you thought staying at your current school was the smarter move. You'll at least give yourself a shot, and the rest is up to you to wow them. Contrast this with the Cornell situation where you won't get your face in front of those employers, your mailed resumes will go into the huge pile at every firm marked "to be shredded", and you'll scramble for your 2L year and potentially your 3L year to get a firm to notice you somehow from among the sea of other clamoring students out there. This is not to say that you won't end up in that sea at your current school; but at least you'd have the chance before that to interview and try to win those employers over face-to-face. Again, this is all about numbers and percentages - which situation gives you the better odds of getting to where you want to be right out of school, even if it's only a 10% chance (as opposed to 1%)? Rolling the dice on a long-shot is fun in Vegas, but when your future and career and financial solvency are at risk in the real world, it's best to play it safe. At least that's my opinion.

I understand the sex appeal of a Cornell law degree. Having been a 0L, 1L, and a 2L in the past, I understand the allure of a more prestigious school, of carrying your head high when you say where you attend law school, of being able to say you are an Ivy League graduate for the rest of your life. However, when you're making huge loan payments each month to lenders, or struggling to come up with the cash to pay those lenders, or wondering why the universe didn't give you a job due to your ivy degree, the prestige is only going to keep you so warm at night. Once 3L hits (and then graduation) and you realize the size of your debt and the real inability to pay it off if you don't have a well-paying job, you will look at the whole law school experience differently. Being in debt totally sucks, and it is a difficult concept for 0Ls and 1Ls to really grasp because they are often too enchanted with the glitter of USNWR rankings.




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