T2 to Cornell Transfer?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Stay or Cornell?

Stay
20
43%
Cornell
26
57%
 
Total votes: 46

keg411
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby keg411 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:17 am

Helmholtz wrote:
elmagic wrote:
crazyblink653 wrote:if this were any other T14 school besides Cornell, I would probably say suck it up and transfer. However, Cornell has a notorious reputation for treating transfers as second-class citizens, beginning with their refusal to allow them to participate in their main OCI offering. That alone should dissuade you. You're in a decent position at your current school and should be able to land at least SA position at a NYC mid-size firm. I'd stay.


Is this true? Kinda of makes sense though that a school wants to protect its own, I mean no offense but when transfers come from significantly inferior schools it seems a little unfair that they should have the same opportunities as the kids who put in the hard work from the start.


this is stupid


This is why I'm happy I'm going to Mich <3.

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RMstratosphere
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby RMstratosphere » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:27 am

Helmholtz wrote:I'm also kind of dumbstruck by the idea that somebody who got into a "top school" because of a good undergrad GPA and a decent LSAT score "deserves" anything more than somebody who excelled at actually taking law school exams, albeit at a school that wasn't as highly ranked. I did great on the LSAT, which helped compensate for my meh GPA, and got into a good school. Do I "deserve" a really good legal job more than somebody who was top 5% of their 1L class at a T1 and transferred to my school? Fuck if I know, but I'm not going to act like either one of us is more "deserving."


This.

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thedogship
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby thedogship » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:28 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:Sounds like BLS ,Hofstra, or St. Johns, I have a friend who is top 15% at Hofstra and transferring to Cornell this fall. Go with your gut. The name says it all. 10 years from now when someone asks what law school did you go to they won't care that you went for almost free.


Yes and no. It's a proven fact that the value of an elite degree dissipates over time. Essentially, if you do not get a good job immediately (or soon after) graduation (Big Gov, Big Law, Fed Clerk, National Organizations, National Companies), you are in the same boat as people who didn't go to said elite school.

The whole point of transferring is to do OCI. If the OP cannot do the largest OCI session, which contains the most "good job" employers, the added value of transferring really isn't there. If you add that to the fact that the OP is already in the top 10% at an okay school, transferring seems like a bad idea.

If the OP cannot get big law in NYC with top 10% (law review/moot court) from BLS/Hofstra/St. Johns, odds are the OP wouldn't get it from Cornell even if the OP could do the largest OCI session.


I agree with this. You will often see some schools having a "first OCI" in august and a "second OCI" in september. Usually the september one is poop by comparison, with fewer employers, smaller and less reputable firms, and more competition from classmates that struck out at the first OCI. The first OCI session is the real game and what any potential transfer student should be focused on. If you're interested in landing a big firm job and you're shut out of the first OCI session, you're in trouble. If it's Cornell's policy to not permit transfers to participate in the first OCI in august, I'd be very leery of transferring there, PARTICULARLY if I was top 10% at a NY T2 school (Brooklyn, St. John's, etc...) where often only top 10% kids are sought by NYC firms (who will have alumni who want to recruit from that school).

As a potentially helpful anecdote, I know a person who just summered at a V50 NYC firm. This person attends a NY T2 school, and the prior year many firms had pulled out of OCI at the school, choosing to recruit only at T14 schools at their august OCI sessions. When one of the top partners at the firm got wind of this, he was pissed that his alma mater wasn't being attended for recruiting, and called up the school's dean and asked for the resumes of the top kids in the class. The firm wound of extending summer offers to 3 of those kids and 2 of them accepted and worked there this summer. The point is that there are a lot of alumni from those T2 schools at NYC firms that may still try to seek out the top 10% in the class even if the firm isn't formally participating in OCI at the school. So there is real potential value to being in the top 10% at a T2, as opposed to a T14 transfer without a class rank who doesn't get to participate in august OCI. Even if a ton of firms don't interview at the T2 OCI, if you're top 10%, you're at least the student they are coming to talk to if they are there, and I just think that top 10% at a T2 with august OCI interviews is a better position to be in than non-ranked Cornell transfer student without any august OCI interviews.

AlvinJames
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:41 pm

thedogship wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
blacklawboss wrote:Sounds like BLS ,Hofstra, or St. Johns, I have a friend who is top 15% at Hofstra and transferring to Cornell this fall. Go with your gut. The name says it all. 10 years from now when someone asks what law school did you go to they won't care that you went for almost free.


Yes and no. It's a proven fact that the value of an elite degree dissipates over time. Essentially, if you do not get a good job immediately (or soon after) graduation (Big Gov, Big Law, Fed Clerk, National Organizations, National Companies), you are in the same boat as people who didn't go to said elite school.

The whole point of transferring is to do OCI. If the OP cannot do the largest OCI session, which contains the most "good job" employers, the added value of transferring really isn't there. If you add that to the fact that the OP is already in the top 10% at an okay school, transferring seems like a bad idea.

If the OP cannot get big law in NYC with top 10% (law review/moot court) from BLS/Hofstra/St. Johns, odds are the OP wouldn't get it from Cornell even if the OP could do the largest OCI session.


I agree with this. You will often see some schools having a "first OCI" in august and a "second OCI" in september. Usually the september one is poop by comparison, with fewer employers, smaller and less reputable firms, and more competition from classmates that struck out at the first OCI. The first OCI session is the real game and what any potential transfer student should be focused on. If you're interested in landing a big firm job and you're shut out of the first OCI session, you're in trouble. If it's Cornell's policy to not permit transfers to participate in the first OCI in august, I'd be very leery of transferring there, PARTICULARLY if I was top 10% at a NY T2 school (Brooklyn, St. John's, etc...) where often only top 10% kids are sought by NYC firms (who will have alumni who want to recruit from that school).

As a potentially helpful anecdote, I know a person who just summered at a V50 NYC firm. This person attends a NY T2 school, and the prior year many firms had pulled out of OCI at the school, choosing to recruit only at T14 schools at their august OCI sessions. When one of the top partners at the firm got wind of this, he was pissed that his alma mater wasn't being attended for recruiting, and called up the school's dean and asked for the resumes of the top kids in the class. The firm wound of extending summer offers to 3 of those kids and 2 of them accepted and worked there this summer. The point is that there are a lot of alumni from those T2 schools at NYC firms that may still try to seek out the top 10% in the class even if the firm isn't formally participating in OCI at the school. So there is real potential value to being in the top 10% at a T2, as opposed to a T14 transfer without a class rank who doesn't get to participate in august OCI. Even if a ton of firms don't interview at the T2 OCI, if you're top 10%, you're at least the student they are coming to talk to if they are there, and I just think that top 10% at a T2 with august OCI interviews is a better position to be in than non-ranked Cornell transfer student without any august OCI interviews.


First of all, thank you for the advice. Very solid reasoning. One more thing I wanted to qualify:

Your reasoning is mostly based on OCI. However, since I can't participate in Cornell's August OCI, I basically made up my mind that I'm doing OCI at my current school, and THEN transferring (that is, IF I transfer). So, either way, OCI will be exactly the same for me if I stay or if I transfer. Would there be any advantages to transferring to Cornell, considering that I'm still doing OCI at current school? Would this make a *better* case for transferring to Cornell because I'm still getting my OCI in? Does it look better on a call-back if I hand them my "updated" resume with Cornell on it, or will it not matter?

Also, how do my prospects fare if I bomb the OCI, or don't get any offers? Lets say I end up interning for some random judge in my 2L summer instead of getting a SA position at a firm. How are my chances at employment going into 3L with no SA / no offers with current school top 5-10% versus Cornell with, lets say top 20-30%? The reason I ask is I've heard horror stories from upper-classmen of people with higher GPA than mine getting a LOT of call-backs but not a single offer. On the flip-side, there are 3Ls here that have done SA with large top Vault firms as well. I guess what I'm asking is, if I do not transfer, and then end up getting no offers for SA from OCI, will I be wishing that I had transferred to Cornell, or does it not matter as much at that point?

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Wholigan
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby Wholigan » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:31 pm

AlvinJames wrote:Your reasoning is mostly based on OCI. However, since I can't participate in Cornell's August OCI, I basically made up my mind that I'm doing OCI at my current school, and THEN transferring (that is, IF I transfer).


Don't do this.

Also, can you even do this? What date is Cornell giving you to deposit by? Is it really after your school's OCI is over? If not, I do not think it would be ethical (and might even be against your school's code of conduct) to have deposited at Cornell, knowing you are going there and participate in your current school's OCI without having informed your current school. Even if you can, when you get CBs, don't you think firms are going to ask you when you decided to transfer? They won't like it if you participated in OCI at the old school knowing you were transferring.

AlvinJames
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:07 pm

I thought about this, in detail.

I already deposited at Cornell (I had, literally, 48 hours to send my deposit). However, correct me if I'm wrong, sending the deposit does not mean you are definitely 100% attending. I have not withdrawn from my current school, and still have time to make a choice. As I understand, I have until the first day of classes, or until the bill comes (whichever comes first) to decide.

I don't think I'm doing anything unethical, because I truly don't know, and have not decided yet!! Since there is no official "due date" to decide by, I could decide now, or I can make my decision after OCI.

Having said that, I realize there may be some negative "stigma" and/or confusion if I get CBs and then show up with Cornell on my resume... [keep in mind, this may not even be the case if I stay] However, in my current situation, this is (I believe) better than having NO OCI at Cornell at all. I realize that "double dipping" OCI events is looked down upon -- but in this case I have no choice since I can't do it at Cornell.

firemed
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby firemed » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:46 pm

elmagic wrote:
lol sorry for posting on your [our] forum... i don't usually like to have e-arguments, but you are being so ridiculous i have to look out for my e-name.

First, I went to Yale. Yep, the best law school in the country. Worked at a V10 this summer. So, put two and two together... I didn't drop out because I wasn't good enough to make it above the bottom 10% (even if Yale ranked), and I obviously didn't go to a non-T14.

so the moral of the story is what useful advice you can give to the OP? oh right, you aren't in law school so you can't give useful advice, AND you don't go to Yale, but I guess you can always fall back on your online degree right?


If anyone thinks I need to respond to this intelligently let me know... otherwise I'll just stick with this:

Shut up Troll. It isn't my fault you just wasted the last year of your life.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby CanadianWolf » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:59 am

Without knowing your current law school, it is difficult to offer an opinion. My concern is that you seem to be getting into grey areas regarding ethics by depositing at your transfer school while planning to participate in OCI at your current law school.

Based on your initial post in this thread, you suggest that you may be uncomfortable in Ithaca due to location & housing while being barred from participating in the first OCI. Conversely, things seem to be going very well for you at your current Tier Two law school & your situation may improve if you move up in class rank. The primary issue emerging is whether Cornell's OCI scraps offer better NYC biglaw employment opportunities than Top 10%, law review & moot court placement at your current law school. Complicating matters, however, is that you may have already committed to Cornell as a transfer since you deposited within the 48 hour deadline.
My advice is to speak to the admissions folks at Cornell to share your concerns & to determine whether or not your deposit at Cornell created a binding obligation to attend, or, at least, to withdraw from your current law school. Then you need to determine whether or not you can participate in your current school's OCI while "on deposit" at your transfer school without violating either law school's honor code. Also, verify the time frame involved for OCI responses at your current school to determine if you would still have options after participating in OCI at your current law school.

My best advice is to make a choice & don't try to play too many hands.

AlvinJames
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:28 am

Am I correct in believing that OCI is the most important issue on the table at this point? In that case my choice would be my current school's OCI events, or Cornell's OCI scraps.

At my current school, OCI is not particularly strong: There is not a huge number of firms participating (about 30 firms), and only several top Vault firms actually coming to OCI (8 V100s, including 4 V20s). There were about 10 more V50s for resume drops. Having said that, every one of my bids was selected for an interview, including the 8 V100s mentioned above. However, historically, many students get callbacks, but very few get offers. Out of the 40 people in last year's law review class, only about 4-5 got SA positions at reputable NYC BigLaw firms. There were people with GPAs higher than mine who did not receive ANY offers.

At Cornell, however, I cannot participate in August OCI at all, so I will have to send letters and resumes to law firms on my own (as someone else so aptly put it, "swimming against the current"). I would be able to participate in September OCI events, but, from the information I've gathered, those are mostly limited to local (Buffalo, Rochester, etc) firms that I have no interest in, and have very few BigLaw firms (including Skadden and Weil -- but no guarantee that I will be selected to interview with them).

Also, after some thought, I realize doing OCI at current school and then transferring could be a bad idea. Some feedback that I've gotten from people confirms the notion that seeing a different school on my resume during CBs without hearing anything about the move during OCI would portray me as a shady character, and cast me in an unfavorable light.

At this point, I don't know if I should stick it out with current school, and hope for the best in OCI, or transfer and take a shot at the few BigLaw companies at Cornell's Sept. OCI with a better school on my resume, and (possibly) improved chances.

crazyblink653
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby crazyblink653 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:22 pm

AlvinJames wrote:Am I correct in believing that OCI is the most important issue on the table at this point? In that case my choice would be my current school's OCI events, or Cornell's OCI scraps.

At my current school, OCI is not particularly strong: There is not a huge number of firms participating (about 30 firms), and only several top Vault firms actually coming to OCI (8 V100s, including 4 V20s). There were about 10 more V50s for resume drops. Having said that, every one of my bids was selected for an interview, including the 8 V100s mentioned above. However, historically, many students get callbacks, but very few get offers. Out of the 40 people in last year's law review class, only about 4-5 got SA positions at reputable NYC BigLaw firms. There were people with GPAs higher than mine who did not receive ANY offers.

At Cornell, however, I cannot participate in August OCI at all, so I will have to send letters and resumes to law firms on my own (as someone else so aptly put it, "swimming against the current"). I would be able to participate in September OCI events, but, from the information I've gathered, those are mostly limited to local (Buffalo, Rochester, etc) firms that I have no interest in, and have very few BigLaw firms (including Skadden and Weil -- but no guarantee that I will be selected to interview with them).

Also, after some thought, I realize doing OCI at current school and then transferring could be a bad idea. Some feedback that I've gotten from people confirms the notion that seeing a different school on my resume during CBs without hearing anything about the move during OCI would portray me as a shady character, and cast me in an unfavorable light.

At this point, I don't know if I should stick it out with current school, and hope for the best in OCI, or transfer and take a shot at the few BigLaw companies at Cornell's Sept. OCI with a better school on my resume, and (possibly) improved chances.


this is a very tricky predicament for you..i still think you should stick it out at your current school though, where at least you're guaranteed some interviews. Even if you strike out at a SA position, your grades should give you a decent shot at one of the better government internships available (though i would advise jumping on applying to them, as you don't want to apply too late or you'll miss out on them too). plus i think your first plan was very questionable ethically and i think you're making the right decision backing away from it.

GL..this obviously isn't an easy decision. though FWIW, i'm transferring this year and if i hadn't been able to participate in my new school's OCI, I probably wouldn't have done it.

AlvinJames
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:13 pm

But from a rank 80-95 school to a rank 13? I understand OCI is important, law review is important, top 5-10% is good... But its a huge jump in rankings, prestige (even though employers will still see that you are a transfer student), and much more recognizable name for the future (even though I plan to stay in the New York area). Despite all of those factors, possibly transferring anyway with no interview guarantees, no law review, and possibly only being top 30-50% is still worth it?

I weigh all the other factors, a lot of which point me to staying, but I keep on coming back to this. Despite everything else, could rank 80-95 jump to rank 13 *still* be worth it? Also, I notice that the "poll" I put up is about 50/50 for staying vs transferring. However, most of the actual comments advise me to stay. Almost seems like people are clicking Cornell without a justifiable reason -- and I'm wondering if that same "prestige" factor would resonate in the BigLaw community just as much...

Gigaton Punch
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby Gigaton Punch » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:54 pm

AlvinJames wrote:But from a rank 80-95 school to a rank 13? I understand OCI is important, law review is important, top 5-10% is good... But its a huge jump in rankings, prestige (even though employers will still see that you are a transfer student), and much more recognizable name for the future (even though I plan to stay in the New York area). Despite all of those factors, possibly transferring anyway with no interview guarantees, no law review, and possibly only being top 30-50% is still worth it?

I weigh all the other factors, a lot of which point me to staying, but I keep on coming back to this. Despite everything else, could rank 80-95 jump to rank 13 *still* be worth it? Also, I notice that the "poll" I put up is about 50/50 for staying vs transferring. However, most of the actual comments advise me to stay. Almost seems like people are clicking Cornell without a justifiable reason -- and I'm wondering if that same "prestige" factor would resonate in the BigLaw community just as much...

fyi, i was accepted to cornell, and i too was unable to participate in AJF. i decided not to go, and i am glad.
to tell you the truth, the whole cornell admin. are total dicks to their transfers, especially the CSO and the dean. total dicks about your prospects about getting a job. the dean straight up told me that i should probably stay, and that if i was to stay, i probably won't get a firm job.
what kind of dean tells this to a transfer prospect. i mean even if it is true, try to show some dedication that the whole school will work hard to get you a good job. nope. he straight up told me he would stay if he were me. and when i asked him how did transfers fare in the past, he told me "not well." really really discouraging stuff, that a dean should not be saying.

IMO, cornell doesn't give a shit about transfers. they just want transfer money, and they don't want transfers to take opportunities away from "real" cornell students. and thus they don't want you b/c you'll mess up their firm placement rate.

as a transfer, you will be treated as a 2nd class student, no doubt.
i would DEFINITELY stay. you did well and will be on LR.
prestige is important, but let me tell you, you will NOT be getting any help from these "cornell" admins. i would rather have a well-paying job then be a second class cornell grad.

keg411
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby keg411 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:18 pm

The funny thing is, my sister was c/o 2010 and she was friends with a whole bunch of the transfers and knows all of the transfers that year got OCI jobs through AJF. I think they've changed the transfer policy the past two years and just became assholes about the whole thing.

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thedogship
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby thedogship » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:48 am

AlvinJames wrote:But from a rank 80-95 school to a rank 13? I understand OCI is important, law review is important, top 5-10% is good... But its a huge jump in rankings, prestige (even though employers will still see that you are a transfer student), and much more recognizable name for the future (even though I plan to stay in the New York area). Despite all of those factors, possibly transferring anyway with no interview guarantees, no law review, and possibly only being top 30-50% is still worth it?

I weigh all the other factors, a lot of which point me to staying, but I keep on coming back to this. Despite everything else, could rank 80-95 jump to rank 13 *still* be worth it? Also, I notice that the "poll" I put up is about 50/50 for staying vs transferring. However, most of the actual comments advise me to stay. Almost seems like people are clicking Cornell without a justifiable reason -- and I'm wondering if that same "prestige" factor would resonate in the BigLaw community just as much...


A nice shiny prestigious degree is really worth very little if you can't get a job with it. Instead, it will hang on your wall mocking you because you are so in debt to it. The name of the game today for law students is "get a well-paying job above all else, however you can." If that comes from a #80 ranked school rather than #13, so be it. You will care a lot less about #80 vs. #13 when you can pay off your loans and have a decent lifestyle. People on this site care far too much about "prestige" of a degree at the cost of all else. Prestige alone is not going to pay your rent or loans. A paycheck will do that, and you've got to go with the option that gives you the best chance of getting one of loans upon graduation. If you know that Cornell is less than helpful to transfer students, especially when it comes to getting a job (which appears to be the case with this OCI block out and the above poster's info on the career services office and the dean), then it sounds like a recipe for disaster to go there, despite the glitter from that Ivy degree. I'd be quite wary of the siren's calls in this case.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:08 am

thedogship wrote:
AlvinJames wrote:But from a rank 80-95 school to a rank 13? I understand OCI is important, law review is important, top 5-10% is good... But its a huge jump in rankings, prestige (even though employers will still see that you are a transfer student), and much more recognizable name for the future (even though I plan to stay in the New York area). Despite all of those factors, possibly transferring anyway with no interview guarantees, no law review, and possibly only being top 30-50% is still worth it?

I weigh all the other factors, a lot of which point me to staying, but I keep on coming back to this. Despite everything else, could rank 80-95 jump to rank 13 *still* be worth it? Also, I notice that the "poll" I put up is about 50/50 for staying vs transferring. However, most of the actual comments advise me to stay. Almost seems like people are clicking Cornell without a justifiable reason -- and I'm wondering if that same "prestige" factor would resonate in the BigLaw community just as much...

A nice shiny prestigious degree is really worth very little if you can't get a job with it. Instead, it will hang on your wall mocking you because you are so in debt to it. The name of the game today for law students is "get a well-paying job above all else, however you can." If that comes from a #80 ranked school rather than #13, so be it. You will care a lot less about #80 vs. #13 when you can pay off your loans and have a decent lifestyle. People on this site care far too much about "prestige" of a degree at the cost of all else. Prestige alone is not going to pay your rent or loans. A paycheck will do that, and you've got to go with the option that gives you the best chance of getting one of loans upon graduation. If you know that Cornell is less than helpful to transfer students, especially when it comes to getting a job (which appears to be the case with this OCI block out and the above poster's info on the career services office and the dean), then it sounds like a recipe for disaster to go there, despite the glitter from that Ivy degree. I'd be quite wary of the siren's calls in this case.

+1 to this. Cornell just sounds like a bad idea, which is a shame.

AlvinJames
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:55 am

I agree with the above posts... But prestige still does mean something. Think about this: You have a friend who knows a partner at a law firm where you want to work, and you ask him to pass along your resume, so that you can get to the "top of the stack," plus a good reference. Would you be more comfortable giving him a resume that says "Cornell Law School" or something like "SUNY Buffalo Law School"? The perception (keep in mind, I said perception) with "Cornell Law School" = "I am successful -- I went to Cornell," and you don't have to justify this any further. The perception with "SUNY Buffalo Law" may be "I couldn't make it to a top law school, and had to settle for this school, and must now prove myself further." What's worse, some people will think something like Hofstra, St. John's, or Rutgers are not serious law schools, and top 10% only means that you fared better than the rest of the dumb or avg-student people there.

I am extremely conflicted here. All signs point to "stay," and I actually WANT to stay, but its like I'm trying to convince myself to go. That was a very good point with the Cornell degree on my wall mocking me because I am so in debt to it / I made sacrifices which I may not have wanted to make to attain it, I wrecked my brain for the past 2 weeks because of it, etc... But what I'm *really* worried about is having my "__________ Law School" degree on my wall mocking me because I feel like I sold myself short, that I had an opportunity to do something prestigious and didn't take it, that I didn't have the balls to take a risk because I was afraid of not having OCI, etc. That's what really scares me. If somewhere down the line this decision goes to bite me in the ass, and I start thinking that I should have taken the chance to transfer.

Another thing to add, and a piece of advice. I applied to a bunch of other T-14 schools where I wanted to go, and was rejected. I applied to Cornell as a "backup," and never actually thought it through until that ended up being my only acceptance. The fact that I never planned to go to Ithaca, never researched the school (OCI policy, etc) made that even worse. Here I am with a choice of staying where I am, or going somewhere where I never even considered going -- but the prestige, jump in rank, the "what-ifs" are making it very tough to turn down. The advice: don't apply to transfer to schools where you would not strongly consider going. Research your schools, and then apply only to those where you are positive you would go if you get accepted.

CanadianWolf
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:57 am

Regardless of your final decision, you are likely to experience "buyer's remorse".

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vanwinkle
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:23 pm

AlvinJames wrote:Another thing to add, and a piece of advice. I applied to a bunch of other T-14 schools where I wanted to go, and was rejected. I applied to Cornell as a "backup," and never actually thought it through until that ended up being my only acceptance. The fact that I never planned to go to Ithaca, never researched the school (OCI policy, etc) made that even worse. Here I am with a choice of staying where I am, or going somewhere where I never even considered going -- but the prestige, jump in rank, the "what-ifs" are making it very tough to turn down. The advice: don't apply to transfer to schools where you would not strongly consider going. Research your schools, and then apply only to those where you are positive you would go if you get accepted.

This just screams "stay".

Invest in your long-term future. Two years from now, you may be more happy having a Cornell degree. Thirty years from now, it won't matter at all. What will matter by then is what career you've had and what doors you've managed to open for yourself since your first job. If staying helps you land a better first job, then it's worth a lot more than the temporary satisfaction of having a certain name on a piece of paper.

AlvinJames wrote:But what I'm *really* worried about is having my "__________ Law School" degree on my wall mocking me because I feel like I sold myself short, that I had an opportunity to do something prestigious and didn't take it, that I didn't have the balls to take a risk because I was afraid of not having OCI, etc. That's what really scares me. If somewhere down the line this decision goes to bite me in the ass, and I start thinking that I should have taken the chance to transfer.

Your long-term future should not boil down to "having balls" and "taking a risk". People who invest that way sometimes have huge short-term gains, but they often end up losing in the end. If they lose in the short-term then they're out early; if they win in the short term, then they become tempted to take huge risks again because it worked out before. People should definitely take risks to get ahead in life, but those who end up succeeding in the long run are those who carefully weigh the consequences and only take reasonable risks with acceptable losses, not people who "have the balls" to go do something irrational.

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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby AlvinJames » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:18 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Regardless of your final decision, you are likely to experience "buyer's remorse".


But I don't want buyer's remorse... Hence my advice to only transfer to where you are POSITIVE you would go if accepted! My original plan was to apply to as many places as possible irrespective of where I wanted to go, for the purpose of having the biggest "choice" for what to do... I never thought that choice could possibly be a bad thing -- which right now feels like a golden noose.

Where do you think I am likely to experience the *least* buyer's remorse?

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blacklawboss
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby blacklawboss » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:19 pm

AlvinJames wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Regardless of your final decision, you are likely to experience "buyer's remorse".


But I don't want buyer's remorse... Hence my advice to only transfer to where you are POSITIVE you would go if accepted! My original plan was to apply to as many places as possible irrespective of where I wanted to go, for the purpose of having the biggest "choice" for what to do... I never thought that choice could possibly be a bad thing -- which right now feels like a golden noose.

Where do you think I am likely to experience the *least* buyer's remorse?


HYS,... (sorry)

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vanwinkle
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:28 pm

AlvinJames wrote:
CanadianWolf wrote:Regardless of your final decision, you are likely to experience "buyer's remorse".

But I don't want buyer's remorse...

He's right, though. You'll likely experience it no matter which decision you make. Unless you managed to choose one way or the other, and have such a fantastically successful career that it would seem impossible to have gone better if you went the other way, you will probably always wonder.

AlvinJames wrote:Where do you think I am likely to experience the *least* buyer's remorse?

Not quite the right question. The question should be, where will you most likely experience the least buyer's remorse.

If go to Cornell, you'll have an uphill battle to find a job and little/no support from the school, it sounds like. That will make it extremely difficult to find a job, and put the entire burden right on you alone. You may or may not get a job. If you do get a job, you'll still have gone through a very stressful process, and you'll have more debt to repay, and you probably won't have much remorse, but you'll wonder if you could've done as well if you'd stayed. If you don't get a job, you'll hate yourself for not having stayed put, feeling fairly confident you would've been better off if you had, possibly having been able to find a job, and definitely graduating with less debt either way.

If you stay put, it sounds like your school is at least more supportive of you than Cornell would be. You'll also graduate with 50K less debt. You may or may not get a job. If you do get a job, even if it's not quite as prestigious as what you might have gotten at Cornell, it's still a job, and you'll have less debt to pay back, so you'll likely have little "what-if" twinges but be happy things turned out well overall. If you don't get a job, you'll probably look back and wonder what would've happened at Cornell, but be really conflicted about it because you also know the school wouldn't have helped you out any, and you might have still ended up without a job, but with more debt.

Unless you think your job prospects at Cornell are significantly better, even with being shut out of OCI and the administrative hostility, you're less likely to experience severe buyer's remorse if you stay put. You're probably more likely overall to experience at least a little if you stay, but a lot less likely to experience the big remorse that would only come from graduating jobless at Cornell.

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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:22 pm

I think the OP is somewhat over-glamorizing Cornell. Sure, it's an Ivy and a T14, but it's also consistently the worst ranked Ivy law school, has always been at or near the bottom of the T14, and is the only T14 to ever be ranked worse than 14th.

I mean no disrespect to Cornell or its students; it's a much higher ranked law school than I initially got into and overall is probably a finer educational institution than anything I'll ever attend. I just think that OP is treating this decision as if it's a stay-at-my-current school vs. go to Harvard (somehow with poor career prospects) decision. It isn't. I really don't see how staying could be a much easier choice objectively, unless Cornell has a super awesome LRAP he can take advantage of if biglaw doesn't pan out. And that only works if he has an interest in public service/interest.

It's hard to say more without knowing exactly which school he goes to and how it fares in its local market, but my vote is pretty obvious.

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kapital98
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby kapital98 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:46 pm

mrloblaw wrote:I think the OP is somewhat over-glamorizing Cornell. Sure, it's an Ivy and a T14, but it's also consistently the worst ranked Ivy law school, has always been at or near the bottom of the T14, and is the only T14 to ever be ranked worse than 14th.

I mean no disrespect to Cornell or its students; it's a much higher ranked law school than I initially got into and overall is probably a finer educational institution than anything I'll ever attend. I just think that OP is treating this decision as if it's a stay-at-my-current school vs. go to Harvard (somehow with poor career prospects) decision. It isn't. I really don't see how staying could be a much easier choice objectively, unless Cornell has a super awesome LRAP he can take advantage of if biglaw doesn't pan out. And that only works if he has an interest in public service/interest.

It's hard to say more without knowing exactly which school he goes to and how it fares in its local market, but my vote is pretty obvious.


The difference in biglaw jobs between a T2 and Cornel is staggering. With a T2 you're looking at ~5% or less. With Cornell you're looking at ~20% (use the search function on this site to find the actual statistic.

Assuming the OP's grades remain good after the transfer they have a shot at mass mailing. Cornell does make a difference if that's OP's primary goal.

HOWEVER, I'm not suggesting to go to Cornell (I voted against it.) There is just too much risk involved to take the shot without OCI.

Either way, this thread has turned out to be on point and equally weighted in votes. This is rare and nice to see.

mrloblaw
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby mrloblaw » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:58 pm

kapital98 wrote:The difference in biglaw jobs between a T2 and Cornel is staggering. With a T2 you're looking at ~5% or less. With Cornell you're looking at ~20% (use the search function on this site to find the actual statistic.

Assuming the OP's grades remain good after the transfer they have a shot at mass mailing. Cornell does make a difference if that's OP's primary goal.

HOWEVER, I'm not suggesting to go to Cornell (I voted against it.) There is just too much risk involved to take the shot without OCI.

Either way, this thread has turned out to be on point and equally weighted in votes. This is rare and nice to see.


Completely on point. I'm saying that I simply wouldn't bet on the career prospects at Cornell being that rosy after being shut out of OCIs. Harvard, yes. Penn, maybe. Cornell, no.

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vanwinkle
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Re: T2 to Cornell Transfer?

Postby vanwinkle » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:59 pm

mrloblaw wrote:Completely on point. I'm saying that I simply wouldn't bet on the career prospects at Cornell being that rosy after being shut out of OCIs.

This. I think your odds of finding a job (as well as your difficulty level in doing so) go way down if you're shut out of OCI.




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