Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

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stay or go?

stay at UW
12
25%
transfer to NU
36
75%
 
Total votes: 48

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tww909
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Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:18 pm

i got into NU today. setting aside any other acceptances (whose lifetime worth/worth for my goals is easier to see) is it worth it to go?

top 5% at wisconsin.
l. rev. is write on only, and i won't find out until after the deadline. i am not optimistic.
i get in state plus 5k/year scholarship. unlikely to be upped because they are so poor. no debt from 1L, but i will probably have to borrow most or all over the next two years. factoring in 15k/year for cost of living at each that leaves me with:

~60k debt at UW
~140k debt at NU

goals: academia eventually, clerkships and biglaw (prefer chicago/midwest) before

CanadianWolf
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:40 pm

What are your impressions regarding quality of students, faculty & facilities at Wisconsin ?

In answer to your question, Northwestern is the better choice if you are seeking Chicago biglaw. However, if you can at least stay in the top 5% or move up in class rank, you should be able to do well from Wisconsin. If you make law review, then top 5% & law review at Wisconsin should be an attractive combination to employers which calls for remaining at Wisconsin.

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:48 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:What are your impressions regarding quality of students, faculty & facilities at Wisconsin ?

In answer to your question, Northwestern is the better choice if you are seeking Chicago biglaw. However, if you can at least stay in the top 5% or move up in class rank, you should be able to do well from Wisconsin. If you make law review, then top 5% & law review at Wisconsin should be an attractive combination to employers which calls for remaining at Wisconsin.


wisconsin is fine - i like the city, people are nice, i've made a few (certainly 1, maybe another) faculty contacts that would help with clerkship apps and potential RAs (though i've only heard of one person doing an RA this year, so it's clearly not as common as elsewhere).

basically i want to have as good a chance at getting academia as possible. that means getting an Art. III clerkship and making professor contacts/doing my own research/doing law review. NU's website says 4-6 get flagship journal out of the 20 transfers (plus accelerated JD students apparently 20-40) who have the option of doing the fall write-on.

chicago big law is something to do along the way, and would potentially help me secure a clerkship after a few years of practice if i can't get one straight out of school. if i can't get either a clerkship or academia i would want to do big law in the absence of anything else better (maybe DOJ honors?).

UCLAtransfer
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby UCLAtransfer » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:20 pm

With your goals, I think transferring to NU makes sense. You will likely do well at NU's OCI since most firms will know how to place you, since top 5% at Wisconsin probably puts you in the running for many of the same firms.

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:01 am

UCLAtransfer wrote:With your goals, I think transferring to NU makes sense. You will likely do well at NU's OCI since most firms will know how to place you, since top 5% at Wisconsin probably puts you in the running for many of the same firms.


that's probably true, but if I'm already competitive then is it worth 80k to do interviews instead of mail those firms? or does the 80k of added value come in from the lifetime value of the degree or value in clerkship/academia placement?

any of the other poll voters care to weigh in? i guess i saw this as much more of a 50/50 question than the 80%-20% vote would seem to suggest.

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patrickd139
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:07 am

Was similarly situated at a T2 school (plus I graded on to LR), had lower T14 transfer acceptances that I turned down. Most days I regret not transferring. Some days I don't.

I'd vote 'transfer' for most people, but this is an incredibly personal decision. Feel free to PM if you'd like to talk specifics and I can fill you in on why I made the decision I did, why I do and don't regret making it, etc.

09042014
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:15 am

How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.

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Regionality
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Regionality » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:13 am

Desert Fox wrote:How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.


I can answer that as OP's peer (and number twin, who has definitely decided to transfer to Berkeley).

OCI this year is looking decent, though not splendid for Chicago firms. It's looking like half dozen or so large firms from Chicago are coming to Madison this year for OCI and a handful of smaller ones. This may not seem like much, but considering that these OCI firms only consider the top 10-15%, and that not everyone wants Chicago, it's not terrible.

If one wants Madison/Milwaukee/Minneapolis though one can get it no problem if at the top of the class.

09042014
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:19 am

Regionality wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.


I can answer that as OP's peer (and number twin, who has definitely decided to transfer to Berkeley).

OCI this year is looking decent, though not splendid for Chicago firms. It's looking like half dozen or so large firms from Chicago are coming to Madison this year for OCI and a handful of smaller ones. This may not seem like much, but considering that these OCI firms only consider the top 10-15%, and that not everyone wants Chicago, it's not terrible.

If one wants Madison/Milwaukee/Minneapolis though one can get it no problem if at the top of the class.


There are 53 firms in Chicago coming to Northwestern.

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Regionality
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Regionality » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:21 am

Desert Fox wrote:
Regionality wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.


I can answer that as OP's peer (and number twin, who has definitely decided to transfer to Berkeley).

OCI this year is looking decent, though not splendid for Chicago firms. It's looking like half dozen or so large firms from Chicago are coming to Madison this year for OCI and a handful of smaller ones. This may not seem like much, but considering that these OCI firms only consider the top 10-15%, and that not everyone wants Chicago, it's not terrible.

If one wants Madison/Milwaukee/Minneapolis though one can get it no problem if at the top of the class.


There are 53 firms in Chicago coming to Northwestern.


OCIgasm

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:23 am

Desert Fox wrote:How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.


Not great. No kirkland, Jenner, or mayer brown, all of which are interesting (I am more interested in litigation at least given what I know now).

On the list now are jones day, Paul Hastings (though given their heavy m&a/transactional focus I don't know how interested I am), Sidley, and others like McDermott, Perkins coie, foley, and smith amundsen.

Here's the oci list: http://law.wisc.edu/career/oci_firms.htm

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:26 am

Regionality wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.


I can answer that as OP's peer (and number twin, who has definitely decided to transfer to Berkeley).

OCI this year is looking decent, though not splendid for Chicago firms. It's looking like half dozen or so large firms from Chicago are coming to Madison this year for OCI and a handful of smaller ones. This may not seem like much, but considering that these OCI firms only consider the top 10-15%, and that not everyone wants Chicago, it's not terrible.

If one wants Madison/Milwaukee/Minneapolis though one can get it no problem if at the top of the class.


Glad to see you found your way in here. My iPhone typing can't keep up with you, and you kind of beat me to it.

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Regionality
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Regionality » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:29 am

tww909 wrote:
Regionality wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:How is your OCI at Wisco in terms of getting Chicago law.


I can answer that as OP's peer (and number twin, who has definitely decided to transfer to Berkeley).

OCI this year is looking decent, though not splendid for Chicago firms. It's looking like half dozen or so large firms from Chicago are coming to Madison this year for OCI and a handful of smaller ones. This may not seem like much, but considering that these OCI firms only consider the top 10-15%, and that not everyone wants Chicago, it's not terrible.

If one wants Madison/Milwaukee/Minneapolis though one can get it no problem if at the top of the class.


Glad to see you found your way in here. My iPhone typing can't keep up with you, and you kind of beat me to it.


I knew TLS would tell you to transfer.

09042014
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:32 am

It kinda sucks to have a transfer. I bet you will get something out of OCI. Just do a dam good job mass mailing.[*]

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Regionality
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Regionality » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:39 am

Now for sure you should transfer.

Younger Abstention
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Younger Abstention » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:22 am

No I wouldn't do it. NU is not a big enough jump to lose law review for. Especially if you want to clerk. If you transfer, transfer big (top 6).

transplantedbuckeye
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby transplantedbuckeye » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:23 am

UCLAtransfer wrote:With your goals, I think transferring to NU makes sense. You will likely do well at NU's OCI since most firms will know how to place you, since top 5% at Wisconsin probably puts you in the running for many of the same firms.


I voted for staying. If you are already in the running, why leave and take on twice the debt? As far as I'm aware, NU and UW put out a relatively similar amount of professors (On a strange side note, I may have had more professors who went to UW than any other school). UW had a SCOTUS clerk a few years ago so it's not like the school can't get you into a clerkship, especially with your class rank. Plus, Madison is a great college town.

As for law review, if it is write-on only and you are top 5%, my hunch is that you will be fine.

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:32 am

Okay news. Law review decisions came out and as expected I didn't make it. I'm basically illiterate. I got a secondary that doesn't really interest me at all fwiw.

Anyone want to change their vote?

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:42 am

tww909 wrote:Okay news. Law review decisions came out and as expected I didn't make it. I'm basically illiterate. I got a secondary that doesn't really interest me at all fwiw.

Anyone want to change their vote?


It's a no-brainer at this point, particularly given your goals: you should transfer. I would have voted for transfering in the first instance too. I know Wisconsin isn't doing as badly as it was when I left (CO 2011) but still. At Sidley, there are probably ~4 schools competing for the two or three non-T14 slots they'll take via OCI. You won't get hired at Mayer via mass-mailing (though you might get a bite at KE - they have someone from DuPaul in their current SA class).

But given the academia aspirations (be warned, though - this is a really long shot from NU, as is an Art. III clerkship; only two UChi transfers from my class got clerkships) you should probably bail.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:45 am

Even without law review, it would still be a tough call in my mind - you are paying a nice premium for something that may not result in better results (mass mailing firms while being top 10% at a T50 v. OCI-ing with firms after a transfer to a T14 with no new class rank).

Can you ask career services to see how the top 10% at UW has fared in Chicago in prior years?

Honestly, I think you would be fine either way - and for that reason, I'm leaning UW.

tycho_brahe
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tycho_brahe » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:55 pm

OP, just pm'd you with advice.

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:22 am

Desert Fox wrote:It kinda sucks to have a transfer. I bet you will get something out of OCI. Just do a dam good job mass mailing.[*]


does the asterisk mean "provided you're not a total aspie?"
Last edited by tww909 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tww909
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby tww909 » Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:26 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Even without law review, it would still be a tough call in my mind - you are paying a nice premium for something that may not result in better results (mass mailing firms while being top 10% at a T50 v. OCI-ing with firms after a transfer to a T14 with no new class rank).

Can you ask career services to see how the top 10% at UW has fared in Chicago in prior years?

Honestly, I think you would be fine either way - and for that reason, I'm leaning UW.


i would ask them for info if i could. i might feel a bit better if our career services actually did the decent thing and was willing to put out gpa/callback info, but instead in the quest to make everyone feel good they decided it would be best to be worthless yet supportive.

i think i'll get something by staying, i just want to get a job that - even if it turns into an offer i take rather than a clerkship, affords me enough prestige to do a clerkship after a couple of years, and maybe break into academia after that.

slt
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby slt » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:26 am

tww909 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Even without law review, it would still be a tough call in my mind - you are paying a nice premium for something that may not result in better results (mass mailing firms while being top 10% at a T50 v. OCI-ing with firms after a transfer to a T14 with no new class rank).

Can you ask career services to see how the top 10% at UW has fared in Chicago in prior years?

Honestly, I think you would be fine either way - and for that reason, I'm leaning UW.


i would ask them for info if i could. i might feel a bit better if our career services actually did the decent thing and was willing to put out gpa/callback info, but instead in the quest to make everyone feel good they decided it would be best to be worthless yet supportive.

i think i'll get something by staying, i just want to get a job that - even if it turns into an offer i take rather than a clerkship, affords me enough prestige to do a clerkship after a couple of years, and maybe break into academia after that.


A tenured professor at my school (T20) received his law degree from Wisconsin (back in the day).

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Regionality
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Re: Stay or Go: the Wisconsin vs. Northwestern Edition

Postby Regionality » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:50 am

slt wrote:
tww909 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Even without law review, it would still be a tough call in my mind - you are paying a nice premium for something that may not result in better results (mass mailing firms while being top 10% at a T50 v. OCI-ing with firms after a transfer to a T14 with no new class rank).

Can you ask career services to see how the top 10% at UW has fared in Chicago in prior years?

Honestly, I think you would be fine either way - and for that reason, I'm leaning UW.


i would ask them for info if i could. i might feel a bit better if our career services actually did the decent thing and was willing to put out gpa/callback info, but instead in the quest to make everyone feel good they decided it would be best to be worthless yet supportive.

i think i'll get something by staying, i just want to get a job that - even if it turns into an offer i take rather than a clerkship, affords me enough prestige to do a clerkship after a couple of years, and maybe break into academia after that.


A tenured professor at my school (T20) received his law degree from Wisconsin (back in the day).


Fair enough...however, an african american was elected president...would you have a better chance of success being white or black going in to politics?




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