Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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johndhi
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Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby johndhi » Tue May 24, 2011 8:18 pm

1. Any resources on specifically transferring within the T14? I haven't seen much.

2. Chances of HLS? Killed first sem (~5%) but don't know second sem yet.

3. Is it a good idea?

4. Will I be given the chance to compete for Law Review at the new school in AFTER being admitted (in July or August)?

Thanks as always

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koalatriste
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby koalatriste » Tue May 24, 2011 8:47 pm

i can't really help much with your other questions, but I do know that the write-on ended last week (or maybe it's still going?) and I don't think there is another opportunity for transfers to write-on.

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Kabuo
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby Kabuo » Tue May 24, 2011 8:53 pm

Disclaimer: 0L. But my understanding was that transferring to HLS when already top 5% at a T14 doesn't bring many advantages regarding clerkships or biglaw. If you want the LRAP, I guess that makes sense, but why isn't Y included? Also pretty sure that conventional wisdom is you're a lock to get into HLS as top 5% at a T14.

Renzo
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby Renzo » Tue May 24, 2011 8:56 pm

You've found few resources on such transfers, because they aren't generally a good idea. It's unlikely that there are doors closed to you at the top of your class at a T14 school that will magically open because you transferred, and you would be alienating those at your current school who might go out of their way to help you. I'm not saying it's always a bad idea, but pretty close to always.

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iagolives
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby iagolives » Tue May 24, 2011 9:39 pm

Renzo wrote:You've found few resources on such transfers, because they aren't generally a good idea. It's unlikely that there are doors closed to you at the top of your class at a T14 school that will magically open because you transferred, and you would be alienating those at your current school who might go out of their way to help you. I'm not saying it's always a bad idea, but pretty close to always.


+1 Renzo is spot on with this one. Especially since you would be transferring from within the T-14, I don't think its worth it.

kaiser
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby kaiser » Tue May 24, 2011 9:41 pm

Unless your goal is to become a professor, it is absolutely NOT worth it. You are cream of the crop at a T14 school. Almost anything is within your grasp without any problem. Why give that up?

splitmuch
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby splitmuch » Tue May 24, 2011 9:44 pm

kaiser wrote:Unless your goal is to become a professor, it is absolutely NOT worth it. You are cream of the crop at a T14 school. Almost anything is within your grasp without any problem. Why give that up?



Id still try to apply and see if you can negotiat finaid from the t14

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20121109
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby 20121109 » Tue May 24, 2011 9:45 pm

Absolutely talk to Vanwinkle about this. He transferred from a T14 to HLS so he can give you some advice.

Congrats on your awesome grades :)

DAJ_Summer
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Tue May 24, 2011 11:19 pm

Kabuo wrote:Disclaimer: 0L. But my understanding was that transferring to HLS when already top 5% at a T14 doesn't bring many advantages regarding clerkships or biglaw. If you want the LRAP, I guess that makes sense, but why isn't Y included? Also pretty sure that conventional wisdom is you're a lock to get into HLS as top 5% at a T14.


This is, to the extent a question like this can have an "answer" at all, correct. I knew several people who made such moves, and not one wound up with more impressive work (judicial, academic, or private sector) than peers who had similar credentials and stayed put.

071816
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby 071816 » Tue May 24, 2011 11:21 pm

What's the point of this if you are already at the top of your class at a T14?

DAJ_Summer
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Tue May 24, 2011 11:21 pm

splitmuch wrote:
kaiser wrote:Unless your goal is to become a professor, it is absolutely NOT worth it. You are cream of the crop at a T14 school. Almost anything is within your grasp without any problem. Why give that up?



Id still try to apply and see if you can negotiat finaid from the t14


(1) There isn't a top school in the country that would negotiate financial aid for somebody trying to transfer in such a range.

(2) Such a transfer would not increase your chances at "getting academia" either. Pedigree is important, but it's a check box you already have with those credentials from a T14. It would be a lot of effort and shedding of connections and networks in exchange for a purely lateral move.

johndhi
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby johndhi » Tue May 24, 2011 11:24 pm

Shit on two counts! First, I meant to say "HYS" and second, I thought this was a good idea! Now I feel a little bad about asking for recommendations. My inner-douche kind of wants H or Y so I can put it on my wall, but maybe feeding the ego isn't so good for one's self.

Thank you, Gaia; I'll try PMing the member you mention.

Is it true that "almost anything is within" my grasp? Having read this site I was of the general viewpoint that I'm a garbage if I'm not top of class at Yale. Basically what I want is a federal clerkship and employment at a national plaintiffs' firm. This change anything?

I don't think academia is in my sights but I've always sought to take advantage of the opportunities given to me. I figured "moving up" would just be a good move. Since this is professional school, I figured I can give up some friendships in the name of my professional career. And I want to, you know, MEET Duncan Kennedy and the rest of the legal divas.

edit: does the fact that current school is in lower end of t14 change anything?

DAJ_Summer
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Tue May 24, 2011 11:30 pm

johndhi wrote:My inner-douche kind of wants H or Y so I can put it on my wall


If you can beat that impulse, it will go a long way towards helping you in your career and in your life.

johndhi wrote:Is it true that "almost anything is within" my grasp?


No. Your grades and school are probably not strong enough to give you a real chance at a Supreme Court clerkship. But your odds would be much worse at even that long-shot if you transferred to a 'better' school where fully 5% of the class already finished in the top 5% of their class as 1Ls.

johndhi wrote:edit: does the fact that current school is in lower end of t14 change anything?


Not even a little.

johndhi
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby johndhi » Tue May 24, 2011 11:33 pm

DAJ_Summer wrote:
johndhi wrote:My inner-douche kind of wants H or Y so I can put it on my wall


If you can beat that impulse, it will go a long way towards helping you in your career and in your life.

johndhi wrote:edit: does the fact that current school is in lower end of t14 change anything?


Not even a little.


Now my inner-douche wants to yell at you through an Internet forum. I'll hold off on that. How are you sure of what you're saying about the transfer - do the top14 OCIs all get all of the top firms? I'm pretty certain some of the plaintiffs' firms I'm interested in interview exclusively at S and H and not at my school. Don't you think an on-campus interview is stronger than sending them an email? Maybe not.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue May 24, 2011 11:36 pm

johndhi wrote:
DAJ_Summer wrote:
johndhi wrote:My inner-douche kind of wants H or Y so I can put it on my wall


If you can beat that impulse, it will go a long way towards helping you in your career and in your life.

johndhi wrote:edit: does the fact that current school is in lower end of t14 change anything?


Not even a little.


Now my inner-douche wants to yell at you through an Internet forum. I'll hold off on that. How are you sure of what you're saying about the transfer - do the top14 OCIs all get all of the top firms? I'm pretty certain some of the plaintiffs' firms I'm interested in interview exclusively at S and H and not at my school. Don't you think an on-campus interview is stronger than sending them an email? Maybe not.


you sure this douche is an "inner" one only? lol people are just giving you their advice/opinions, which, from what ive read, seem fair. 100% accurate? no idea, but collectively are probably more informed than your single opinion.

stylishlaw
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby stylishlaw » Tue May 24, 2011 11:37 pm

DAJ_Summer is right here. You are not the first person to make this jump or contemplate it and it has been discussed thoroughly in this forum. Outside of academia there is pretty much no reason to make that jump. You have every opportunity in your position and losing those grades + LR + any scholarship just so you can put H or Y on your wall is not worth it.

johndhi
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby johndhi » Tue May 24, 2011 11:46 pm

All right, thanks guys. I guess sometimes I don't know when to let up on the gas pedal. I think I'll go ahead and submit a couple of applications for scholarship negotiation but probably not go through unless something really changes my mind. Maybe I'll try emailing some of the firms I'm interested in to see what they have to say.

Hope everyone has a great summer! :)

DAJ_Summer
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Wed May 25, 2011 12:01 am

johndhi wrote:
DAJ_Summer wrote:
johndhi wrote:My inner-douche kind of wants H or Y so I can put it on my wall


If you can beat that impulse, it will go a long way towards helping you in your career and in your life.

johndhi wrote:edit: does the fact that current school is in lower end of t14 change anything?


Not even a little.


Now my inner-douche wants to yell at you through an Internet forum. I'll hold off on that. How are you sure of what you're saying about the transfer - do the top14 OCIs all get all of the top firms? I'm pretty certain some of the plaintiffs' firms I'm interested in interview exclusively at S and H and not at my school. Don't you think an on-campus interview is stronger than sending them an email? Maybe not.


Firm relationships with schools are largely a matter of convenience and not pride. Firm rankings are very rough estimates and don't capture in anything but a crude way important factors such as exit options, job security, and potential satisfaction. If there are firms that only interview at S and H (realistically, I can't think of a single one. I can think of a few firms (two, maybe three) that interview at H or S but not at lower T14 schools) it's because they're small and it would be silly to look to 14+ schools for a summer class at or under that size.

You will go through OCI, and you will fail to get offers and callback invitations from a wide variety of law firms, including several that are substantially 'beneath' what you anticipate your credentials entitle you to. It would be the epitome of foolishness to chase a few that you would require an email from you as opposed to a one on one interview.

To use a highly specific example:

If your post was "I worked at a bank advising clients on major M&A transactions for years, have top grades at a lower T14, and really want my legal career to be focused on M&A transactions with high stakes. I would gladly devote all of my time to this, and have been planning on firm work since I took the LSAT" maybe - MAYBE - it would be worth considering transferring to a school that Wachtell looks at.

But... (1) you would have a great shot without the transfer (I know people who got interviews at Wachtell despite coming from schools they did not visit) and (2) every OTHER firm that does great M&A work (it takes more like 3+ to tango in that world) would still be slobbering all over you.

There is no mythical subset of firms that are desirable, out of reach to somebody in your position, available to you if you transfer, and internally coherent as a group (you may, for example, miss out on some small Boston firms if you don't go to Harvard - but I doubt that's your concern).

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rayiner
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby rayiner » Wed May 25, 2011 12:06 am

It depends what you want to do. I'd argue that if you're gunning for clerkships, academia, it's better to stay because connections are important for those and you'll lose them if you transfer. If you just want biglaw, transfer. It won't help you at OCI but "JD, Harvard" looks nicer on a firm bio and nobody cares about your grades.

johndhi
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby johndhi » Wed May 25, 2011 12:12 am

I appreciate your thorough response, DAJ. I feel I should point out out, though, that we are talking about different law firms. While I would like a shot at the top biglaw firms - I believe I mentioned this in this thread, so I'm not saying you misread - my goal is employment at a top national plaintiffs' law firm. There are a small number of these, they are small organizations, and I know a couple I'm interested in that do not interview at my school. Considering the recent trends (read: Supreme Court decisions), I am worried those firms' hiring practices will have to tighten even more than they already have, so I'm trying to position myself to account for that. I think the best way to find out whether transferring is a good idea is to email these firms. The more you guys say, though, I begin to believe their answer will be "stay put."

DAJ_Summer
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Wed May 25, 2011 12:13 am

johndhi wrote:I appreciate your thorough response, DAJ. I feel I should point out out, though, that we are talking about different law firms. While I would like a shot at the top biglaw firms - I believe I mentioned this in this thread, so I'm not saying you misread - my goal is employment at a top national plaintiffs' law firm. There are a small number of these, they are small organizations, and I know a couple I'm interested in that do not interview at my school. Considering the recent trends (read: Supreme Court decisions), I am worried those firms' hiring practices will have to tighten even more than they already have, so I'm trying to position myself to account for that. I think the best way to find out whether transferring is a good idea is to email these firms. The more you guys say, though, I begin to believe their answer will be "stay put."


Substitute everything in my post about Wachtell with stuff about Susman. Same logic applies.

iheartlaw
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby iheartlaw » Wed May 25, 2011 4:33 am

Am I the only one who doesn't think that transferring is a horrible idea? Like OP, I go to a school at the bottom of the T14, and OCI at my school can be unpredictable. If you are top 5% you are undoubtedly going to get callbacks/offers, but like OP said, it may not be at the firm you want. Wachtell does not interview at my school, but there are several other great firms besides Wachtell that don't interview at my school either. If OP went to HLS, he/she will never wonder what if, and the name of your school will always be with you. I think you should do it if you want OP, also I think you are spot-on with asking recruiting personnel from the firms you want to be a part of, whether it would be advisable to transfer... (I have a feeling they will tell you it won't matter, but if they don't come to your school's OCI, then you should be skeptical of their advice).

Does anyone here know if it matters where your JD is from when the partners consider you as a partner down the road? Do you think it would help by maybe a year or so, if you went to HLS instead of say Cornell? Or it simply based on your performance as an attorney within the firm? (i'm sure a large portion is based on the quality of your work as an attorney with the firm, but I wonder if the school matters??). Even if you don't decide to stick around till partner, if you start your own firm, it can't hurt to have a JD from HLS hanging on the wall when potential clients come in.

Another thought I have, and sorry if it comes across scattered: If you are top of your class at DNCG do you think you would have a better shot at a firm like say.... Sullivan Cromwell staying put, or transferring to HLS (where you may be seen as an inferior candidate because you "transferred" amongst your colleagues)? I know they will see that you were top 5% at DNCG, and that may be good enough in and of itself to get the job even if you transfer, but I can imagine some employers being like hmmm the transfer kid, let's just stick with the ones who were at HLS and did well. Whereas had OP stayed at his/her original school he would have been a top candidate among his colleagues. Thoughts?

mscarn23
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby mscarn23 » Wed May 25, 2011 6:26 am

I don't think it hurts to send out the apps, especially since you've already gotten letters from profs. If you end up staying, it will probably give those profs a bit of an ego boost knowing you chose to remain at their school as opposed to taking Harvard.

And unfortunately, Harvard and Columbia write-ons both ended last Friday so no luck writing on for this year. Yale and I believe Stanford hold their write-ons in the fall, so those opportunities would still be open if you made the leap to one of those schools.

splitmuch
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby splitmuch » Wed May 25, 2011 10:58 am

iheartlaw wrote:
Does anyone here know if it matters where your JD is from when the partners consider you as a partner down the road? Do you think it would help by maybe a year or so, if you went to HLS instead of say Cornell? Or it simply based on your performance as an attorney within the firm? (i'm sure a large portion is based on the quality of your work as an attorney with the firm, but I wonder if the school matters??). Even if you don't decide to stick around till partner, if you start your own firm, it can't hurt to have a JD from HLS hanging on the wall when potential clients come in.


My understanding is alot of it deals with your ability to bring in business, which may get a marginal boost from having HYS as opposed to lower T14.

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bjsesq
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Re: Transferring within T-14 to HLS?

Postby bjsesq » Wed May 25, 2011 11:05 am

GAIAtheCHEERLEADER wrote:Absolutely talk to Vanwinkle about this. He transferred from a T14 to HLS so he can give you some advice.


Vanwinkle goes to Harvard?




























Srsly?




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