What are your chances? Forum

[TTT_School_of_Lawl]

thanks for the odds - what abut Berkeley? I figure my chances may be slim but is it worth an app?

[patrickd139]

thanks for the odds - what abut Berkeley? I figure my chances may be slim but is it worth an app?

Slim odds = de facto worth an app. The transfer game is still way too unpredictable.

[vanwinkle]

thanks for the odds - what abut Berkeley? I figure my chances may be slim but is it worth an app?

Slim odds = de facto worth an app. The transfer game is still way too unpredictable.

Agreed. If you're already going through the efforts of getting LORs, updating a PS for the transfer cycle, etc., why wouldn't you go for a reach like that?

[TTT_School_of_Lawl]

thanks for the odds - what abut Berkeley? I figure my chances may be slim but is it worth an app?

Slim odds = de facto worth an app. The transfer game is still way too unpredictable.

Agreed. If you're already going through the efforts of getting LORs, updating a PS for the transfer cycle, etc., why wouldn't you go for a reach like that?

Definitely makes sense - good advice to take. Thank you for the input

[JOThompson]

Hey guys, I'd appreciate any predictions you might offer:

-Public T30
-Estimated Class Ranking: Top 15-20%, but with a below median legal writing grade
-Interesting softs
-One good LOR, but struggling to find another suitable professor to ask. I didn't plan on transferring and haven't built up connections with the faculty
-Looking mainly at Michigan, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCLA, USC, and Vandy. If my GPA increases enough (unlikely), I may apply to Berkeley and Chicago too

[vanwinkle]

Hey guys, I'd appreciate any predictions you might offer:

-Public T30
-Estimated Class Ranking: Top 15-20%, but with a below median legal writing grade
-Interesting softs
-One good LOR, but struggling to find another suitable professor to ask. I didn't plan on transferring and haven't built up connections with the faculty
-Looking mainly at Michigan, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCLA, USC, and Vandy. If my GPA increases enough (unlikely), I may apply to Berkeley and Chicago too

What are your goals for transferring? It's not clear, especially not from your scattershot listing of schools. You really should not be transferring up to, at a minimum, T14 without a very specific and solid reason. T30->Vandy isn't a good move IMO, and T30->(Vandy or USC) as a proposed idea just boggles me, 'cause it eliminates geography as an explanation.

[JOThompson]

Hey guys, I'd appreciate any predictions you might offer:

-Public T30
-Estimated Class Ranking: Top 15-20%, but with a below median legal writing grade
-Interesting softs
-One good LOR, but struggling to find another suitable professor to ask. I didn't plan on transferring and haven't built up connections with the faculty
-Looking mainly at Michigan, Cornell, Georgetown, Northwestern, UCLA, USC, and Vandy. If my GPA increases enough (unlikely), I may apply to Berkeley and Chicago too

What are your goals for transferring? It's not clear, especially not from your scattershot listing of schools. You really should not be transferring up to, at a minimum, T14 without a very specific and solid reason. T30->Vandy isn't a good move IMO, and T30->(Vandy or USC) as a proposed idea just boggles me, 'cause it eliminates geography as an explanation.

I'm seeking prestigious PI, preferably on the west coast. I think that any of those schools is more likely to take me there than Iowa. Since I wouldn't mind working in the south either, I tossed Vandy onto my list of possibilities. I should admit that I am somewhat debt averse and don't like the idea of losing my current scholarship. However, I figure that IBR is a decent safety net since I'm willing to do public interest for the long term. Appreciate any advice you can provide.

[nycdweller]

I'm applying to Top 4 only

[dakatz]

I'm applying to Top 4 only - HLS, YLS, SLS, and CLS

Currently 4.0/#1 at lower of T14. Hope to keep that GPA above 3.85 after this semester.
-Only 1 year WE
-Ivy undergrad; 177 LSAT
-Summering at a firm in DC
-Working as research asst to prof.
-Basically want to do BigLaw, but trying to xfer up for a better shot at prestigious clerkships + NY market

Honestly, transferring up sounds like the absolute dumbest thing you can do at this point. You are number one at a T14 school. Every position you could ever imagine would be open to you. You couldn't possibly increase your chances for anything since being able to say "I am the TOP STUDENT at X T14 school" sounds way better than "I go to HLS/YLS/SLS/CLS without any ranking". You have no reason to transfer at all. And congrats.

[nycdweller]

Your point's well taken.

[dakatz]

I'm applying to Top 4 only - HLS, YLS, SLS, and CLS

Currently 4.0/#1 at lower of T14. Hope to keep that GPA above 3.85 after this semester.
-Only 1 year WE
-Ivy undergrad; 177 LSAT
-Summering at a firm in DC
-Working as research asst to prof.
-Basically want to do BigLaw, but trying to xfer up for a better shot at prestigious clerkships + NY market

Honestly, transferring up sounds like the absolute dumbest thing you can do at this point. You are number one at a T14 school. Every position you could ever imagine would be open to you. You couldn't possibly increase your chances for anything since being able to say "I am the TOP STUDENT at X T14 school" sounds way better than "I go to HLS/YLS/SLS/CLS without any ranking". You have no reason to transfer at all. And congrats.

Your point's well taken. But YLS/HLS have always been a dream schoosl, a bunch of my family members went there (so I want to live up to that), and you're telling me you would rather graduate from a lower T14 than from YALE?

Anyone have any insight into what the profile of people getting into these schools are? Outside of numbers, I'm curious what outstanding things people have that make them one of the ~10 people YLS selects out of ~200 transfer applicants.

You made it pretty clear that youre thinking with the stars in your eyes, and not with your head. I would be happy to pose this question to every lawyer I know, young and old, and I can absolutely guarantee that pretty much every one would tell you to stay. And no, I never said I would rather graduate from a lower T14 than from Yale. I said I would rather graduate from a lower T14 as the very top student in my class, than from Yale. The very top student at any T14 school will probably be better off than any transfer to the top few schools.

[Coolgrnmen]

I'm applying to Top 4 only - HLS, YLS, SLS, and CLS

Currently 4.0/#1 at lower of T14. Hope to keep that GPA above 3.85 after this semester.
-Only 1 year WE
-Ivy undergrad; 177 LSAT
-Summering at a firm in DC
-Working as research asst to prof.
-Basically want to do BigLaw, but trying to xfer up for a better shot at prestigious clerkships + NY market

Honestly, transferring up sounds like the absolute dumbest thing you can do at this point. You are number one at a T14 school. Every position you could ever imagine would be open to you. You couldn't possibly increase your chances for anything since being able to say "I am the TOP STUDENT at X T14 school" sounds way better than "I go to HLS/YLS/SLS/CLS without any ranking". You have no reason to transfer at all. And congrats.

Your point's well taken. But YLS/HLS have always been a dream schoosl, a bunch of my family members went there (so I want to live up to that), and you're telling me you would rather graduate from a lower T14 than from YALE?

Anyone have any insight into what the profile of people getting into these schools are? Outside of numbers, I'm curious what outstanding things people have that make them one of the ~10 people YLS selects out of ~200 transfer applicants.

1 - I completely agree with dakatz on this one...I've never heard of a transfer at yale/harvard getting a prestigious clerkship at the US Supreme Court because the competition is so heavy that they would rely a lot on rank and past experiences. That's my opinion.
2 - I spoke with a Yale admin person regarding transfers (for fun...no way I could make that leap). They look for people with 2-5 years working experience. They don't just want any 177 LSAT scorer or anyone that is great with studying and taking tests...they want people that have a proven work ethic in the real world workforce and they want people with compelling reasons for transfer. Also, they said that you have to have been able to make the cut in the original application process (meet the original standards). I don't know what your UGPA was, but it has to be acceptable to them where they would have extended you an offer the first time around. IF you are a legacy, they do consider that...
3 - New York Market...do you really think you have a better shot at the NYC market by transferring up and throwing away your rank? That's not rhetorical...I'm really wondering if you think that is truly worth it. I wouldn't throw away a #1 rank at a T14 for Yale.

Congrats on your grades

[Helmholtz]

agree with dakatz

[vanwinkle]

I'm applying to Top 4 only - HLS, YLS, SLS, and CLS

Currently 4.0/#1 at lower of T14. Hope to keep that GPA above 3.85 after this semester.
-Only 1 year WE
-Ivy undergrad; 177 LSAT
-Summering at a firm in DC
-Working as research asst to prof.
-Basically want to do BigLaw, but trying to xfer up for a better shot at prestigious clerkships + NY market

1) Transferring to CLS would be abundantly foolish. You're not gaining anything there.

2) Other than being able to interview with Wachtell, you won't really gain anything by transferring up to H/Y in terms of the NY market. It's honestly the easiest to crack. Wherever you are, the top NY firms are sure to be at your OCI, and with your grades they'll take you seriously. If there's one person from your school that they offer to, odds are not bad that it will be you, as long as you do everything else right.

3) HLS specifically looks for people with substantial WE. You only have 1 year, I don't know if that's enough. YLS is ultra-picky, and can afford to be since they only take about 10 transfers per year and can essentially choose from the best and brightest nationwide. Maybe you'll get in there, but it's not as likely as you might be hoping.

4) You will have better clerkship opportunities if you stay put, at least regarding HLS. Not sure about Yale, but you'd be giving up your existing relationships with professors, have just one year to grow new ones, and most significantly, you'd likely be giving up LR. The HLR write-on is biased against transfers with the way it's set up, and many COA judges will screen applicants outright by whether they're on LR or not. You ought to be able to clerk from where you are now, as well as or possibly better than if you transfer up.

[patrickd139]

Some thoughts, in no particular order, from someone who turned down T14 transfer options and stayed put at his T2:

1) I agree with the logic and substance of pretty much everything dakatz and VW said above. They're also (at least VW, not sure about dakatz) "on the ground" at one of the schools you're aspiring to transfer to. Listen to them.

2) Congratufuckinglations on killing it first semester.

3) Apply to all three, because your chances are good and you'll hate yourself with the "what ifs" for the rest of your career if you don't.

4) I stayed put and regret it most days. The opportunities to a student in the T14 are just that much better than the opportunities to top T2 students. Recognize that, marginally, the opportunities to a random YHS transfer student are not going to increase as much as my situation because you're number 1 in your class.

5) The fact that you're number one in your class could easily change. You could catch a stomach flu during finals, computer could crash during the middle of a final, the person behind you gets uuber motivated and overtakes you, you stop caring and get lazy, whatever. Not sure what cushion you have, but if there's anything law school has taught me, it's not to assume anything will stay the same.

6) I'm still standing, with prestigious PI and SA positions this summer. My guess is that you'll have more success landing your dream job than I did.

7) Wave goodbye to your scholarships and say hello to lower standards of living or massive debt that forces you into biglaw. To me, avoiding an extra $90k in student loans was dispositive. It has worked out for me so far, but there was a certain amount of luck involved. I can't imagine it not working out for you, given what you've got going for you with your class rank.

Good luck and please report back after the whole process is over. I'd love to see where you end up and how it works out for you. FWIW, I don't think there's a bad choice here (assuming you have choices), just the wrong choice for you.

(For full disclosure, I'm a tax guy, and my goal has always been to get an LLM from NYU or GULC. The fact that I'll have that school's name on my degree where it matters, and being fairly confident that I would be able to get there, heavily factored into my decision to stay. I don't see you going into tax though.)

[UHawaiiLaw]

Transfer from a tier 2 school to the following:

L&C (evening program)
Seattle University (evening program)
UO
Gonzaga

GPA: 3.0
Reason: parent diagnosed with cancer and needing to be closer to family.

Chances?

[uzpakalis]

I'm assuming that (1) you go to Hawaii, and (2) 3.0 is roughly median at Hawaii. I think you have a very good shot because all of those schools are basically peers. Additionally, your reason for transferring is as compelling as any. I hope everything works out for you. Good luck.

[UHawaiiLaw]

Thanks.

I wasn't sure if I needed to be at the top 10-15% to transfer into any one of these schools because most people on this site argue that you need to have stellar grades to even contemplate transferring. Hoping to increase my GPA somewhat after finals, but I am sure I'll at least be at a 3.0.

I applied early to SU and L&C because they offer a rolling transfer process.

[Coolgrnmen]

Thanks.

I wasn't sure if I needed to be at the top 10-15% to transfer into any one of these schools because most people on this site argue that you need to have stellar grades to even contemplate transferring. Hoping to increase my GPA somewhat after finals, but I am sure I'll at least be at a 3.0.

I applied early to SU and L&C because they offer a rolling transfer process.

Most people on this site are transferring up by full tiers when they transfer. That's when the rank and GPA matter. Lateral transfers are completely different.

Good luck.

[patrickd139]

Transfer from a tier 2 school to the following:

L&C (evening program)
Seattle University (evening program)
UO
Gonzaga

GPA: 3.0
Reason: parent diagnosed with cancer and needing to be closer to family.

Chances?

Harp on your need to be close to family in your application. It's key, and the real reason most people used to transfer in the first place. I personally know someone who defined the median after 1L year at my T2 and transfered to a solid T1 because he wanted to be near his fiancé. Much less compelling reason than yours.

GL and godspeed.

[smiley]

.

[boalTransfer]

Currently at Boalt, looking to transfer to Columbia or NYU.
No rankings. First semester grades: two H's and one P. (Boalt's grading system is HH = top 10%; H = next 30%; and P = everyone else who doesn't fail)

My reasons for transferring are that my fiance is moving to NYC for his job; I want to practice corporate/transactional IP work in biotech (NYC is the place for this); and I want to continue my summer internship into the school year (helping to start up a patient rights program at a biotech/pharma company)

[DeSimone]

3.85 (top 5% based on last year's numbers but no definite cut off until after spring grades) at T20
Very good undergrad grades, subpar LSAT
Applying to Harvard (I know I have no chance), Columbia (undergrad), Berkeley

H: 40%
CCN: 50%
B: 60% (hard to go higher as transfer process known to be unpredictable)

apply to S if interested in CA

[Coolgrnmen]

Currently at Boalt, looking to transfer to Columbia or NYU.
No rankings. First semester grades: two H's and one P. (Boalt's grading system is HH = top 10%; H = next 30%; and P = everyone else who doesn't fail)

My reasons for transferring are that my fiance is moving to NYC for his job; I want to practice corporate/transactional IP work in biotech (NYC is the place for this); and I want to continue my summer internship into the school year (helping to start up a patient rights program at a biotech/pharma company)

Isn't Boalt known as THE school for IP? I'm pretty sure IP boutique firms in NYC do a lot of hiring out of Boalt. Such as Kenyon & Kenyon...

[boilerplated]

Lower-end T1.
3.52, top 40% (first semester)
Transferring for purely geographic reasons, not prestige. Looking at:

-Northeastern (first choice)
-Boston College
-American
-Cardozo (maybe, probably not)