~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

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Max Power
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~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby Max Power » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:48 am

I'm a part-time student at GULC. We only get 2 grades in the fall (7 credits). 4 grades for 16 credits in the spring. So yeah, I admittedly have the least impressive 4.0 in the T14.

I want a clerkship. You can't grade on to GULC's law review, although grades are part of the formula. But they make everybody do the write-on. Not sure how much that should factor into my decision.

I've searched the site and read some stuff about PT transfers, but any insight on that is of course welcome. My main question is whether it would even make sense, assuming I'm still at or near the top of my class after this semester. I'm guessing staying put would be better than transferring to CCN, but that's not based on anything other than what I've gleaned from other posts here. What about HYS?
Last edited by Max Power on Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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patrickd139
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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:14 pm

You're the first person I remember who has asked about transferring from PT to FT (other than at the school you currently attend). Either way, it's pretty rare. My question to you is whether it's possible to transfer from GULC PT to another school FT. Most schools have pretty strict hours requirements that I'm not sure you can make.

Max Power
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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby Max Power » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:22 pm

patrickd139 wrote:You're the first person I remember who has asked about transferring from PT to FT (other than at the school you currently attend). Either way, it's pretty rare. My question to you is whether it's possible to transfer from GULC PT to another school FT. Most schools have pretty strict hours requirements that I'm not sure you can make.

Yeah, it's possible. I can take summer classes at GULC to meet the credit requirements.

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dcpolitico
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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby dcpolitico » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:29 am

I know 3 ppl who transferred to GULC pt to NU ft. One is now an NU executive law review editor. She's got a job in the bay area at a top 10 law firm this summer. Transferring from GULC to NU was, in her words, the best decision she made.

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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby Max Power » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:50 am

dcpolitico wrote:I know 3 ppl who transferred to GULC pt to NU ft. One is now an NU executive law review editor. She's got a job in the bay area at a top 10 law firm this summer. Transferring from GULC to NU was, in her words, the best decision she made.

Where were they ranked at GULC? Even though I can't grade on to GULC's law review, my grades will still help. Doesn't seem like it would make sense to throw that away and take the bigger gamble of writing on to NU's law review. Actually, it doesn't seem like it would make sense to go GULC-NU regardless of your rank, outside of personal reasons.

Max Power
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby Max Power » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:54 pm

bump

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dcpolitico
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby dcpolitico » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:16 am

Max Power wrote:bump


I'll find out ranks and let you know. They all got awesome job offers on the West coast though. I am still perplexed on why they tranfered, but I think they partly disliked GULC's big classes.

concurrent fork
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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby concurrent fork » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:48 pm

Max Power wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You're the first person I remember who has asked about transferring from PT to FT (other than at the school you currently attend). Either way, it's pretty rare. My question to you is whether it's possible to transfer from GULC PT to another school FT. Most schools have pretty strict hours requirements that I'm not sure you can make.

Yeah, it's possible. I can take summer classes at GULC to meet the credit requirements.

Then wouldn't you have to wait until after earning grades in your summer classes to apply (probably too late)?

Max Power
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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby Max Power » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:22 pm

concurrent fork wrote:
Max Power wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You're the first person I remember who has asked about transferring from PT to FT (other than at the school you currently attend). Either way, it's pretty rare. My question to you is whether it's possible to transfer from GULC PT to another school FT. Most schools have pretty strict hours requirements that I'm not sure you can make.

Yeah, it's possible. I can take summer classes at GULC to meet the credit requirements.

Then wouldn't you have to wait until after earning grades in your summer classes to apply (probably too late)?

No, from what I understand the schools decide on your app after your spring grades come out, like everyone else.

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nealric
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby nealric » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:31 pm


I'm a part-time student at GULC. We only get 2 grades in the fall (7 credits). 4 grades for 16 credits in the spring. So yeah, I admittedly have the least impressive 4.0 in the T14.

I want a clerkship. You can't grade on to GULC's law review, although grades are part of the formula. But they make everybody do the write-on. Not sure how much that should factor into my decision.

I've searched the site and read some stuff about PT transfers, but any insight on that is of course welcome. My main question is whether it would even make sense, assuming I'm still at or near the top of my class after this semester. I'm guessing staying put would be better than transferring to CCN, but that's not based on anything other than what I've gleaned from other posts here. What about HYS?


A friend of mine at GULC PT was accepted to transfer a few years ago, so it is possible to transfer. Frankly, I think it would be hard to say how things would go without spring grades.

concurrent fork
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Re: 4.0 GULC PT

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:44 pm

Max Power wrote:
concurrent fork wrote:
Max Power wrote:
patrickd139 wrote:You're the first person I remember who has asked about transferring from PT to FT (other than at the school you currently attend). Either way, it's pretty rare. My question to you is whether it's possible to transfer from GULC PT to another school FT. Most schools have pretty strict hours requirements that I'm not sure you can make.

Yeah, it's possible. I can take summer classes at GULC to meet the credit requirements.

Then wouldn't you have to wait until after earning grades in your summer classes to apply (probably too late)?

No, from what I understand the schools decide on your app after your spring grades come out, like everyone else.

If that is the case, it functions basically like an EA transfer in the sense that you are accepted before receiving all 1L grades. I would be surprised if HYS did this since it provides quite an advantage to PT applicants.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:18 pm

I know that transferring PT to FT is possible at some schools, but I also know that CLS basically makes it impossible through their rules. I've never heard of anyone doing this or even trying this to HYS, though, so I'm not sure how they're set up. I went and pulled up some transfer apps from last year on LSAC to see what I could glean, and this is what I found about eligibility requirements:

Harvard Law School transfer app instructions wrote:Eligibility

Applicants for transfer admission must have completed one year of full-time study in a JD program (or one-third of total credits required in a part-time JD program) at a United States law school that is accredited by the American Bar Association (ABA). Students may apply for transfer to begin the second year of JD studies in the fall semester only.

When to Apply

The deadline for completing transfer applications is July 1, 2010. However, we encourage you to complete your application as early as possible. Sending all materials together (or as many as possible) in one envelope expedites the processing time and consideration of your application. You may request that recommendations, certifications, etc., be sent to you with the sender's signature across the seal. You may then forward these materials to us unopened. If schools or recommenders prefer, these materials may be sent directly to our office.

Official Transcripts and Law School Grades

Official transcripts of all undergraduate and graduate work are required and should be sent to LSAC as part of the CAS. You will also need to submit your law school grades for the entire first year. Although we prefer an official law school transcript, we realize that it may be difficult in some cases to obtain one until late summer. Therefore, we will consider photocopies of your grade reports or some other account of your law school grades. Although we may be able to reach a tentative decision to admit on the basis of unofficial law school grades, we are not able to offer admission to any applicant without first receiving an official transcript.

That's about clear as mud. You could probably get an official transcript of your fall and spring grades by the July 1 deadline and submit that, and ask them to admit you on the basis of your official fall and spring grades. However, because they want your grades for your "entire first year" that may not be enough.

Yale Law School transfer app instructions wrote:HOW AND WHEN TO APPLY

Yale Law School will accept applications for transfer admission between May 1 and July 1. It is your responsibility to make certain all items arrive at Yale in a timely fashion. Please note that it may take several weeks for the Law School Admission Council Credential Assembly Service (CAS) to process your materials. We suggest that you submit your application as soon as possible after May 1.

STANDARDS FOR ADMISSION

Yale Law School welcomes applications for transfer. Each year, almost 200 students currently enrolled in a broad range of law schools apply. We usually offer admission to 10-12 of them. A college degree and an outstanding record at another law school are prerequisites. Transfer applications will be considered only between the applicant's first and second years of law school. Transfer students must complete at least two years of work at Yale Law School. Transfer credit will be considered only for work done at US law schools that are approved by the American Bar Association and only if the student maintained a weighted average grade of not less than B (or the equivalent) for all work in that school. No credit will be granted for work completed through correspondence or online courses.

Students at foreign law schools are not eligible for consideration as transfer candidates. Students at foreign law schools should apply for admission to the first-year class, and may be eligible for advanced standing in unusual circumstances.

LAW SCHOOL ADMISSION COUNCIL CREDENTIAL ASSEMBLY SERVICE (CAS)

You must subscribe to the LSAC Credential Assembly Service (CAS) in order to apply to Yale Law School. You may register online or obtain a registration form by contacting the Law School Admission Council at LSAC.org or at Box 2000, Newtown, PA 18940-0998.

You must submit transcripts from each college or university you attended to CAS. Even if one school includes summary data regarding courses from another school on its transcript, an official transcript from each institution must be submitted. We suggest that you allow at least three weeks for a transcript to be processed through CAS. Graduate school transcripts may be sent to CAS or directly to the Office of Admissions. Law school transcripts should be submitted directly to the Office of Admissions.

That's even less clear. They encourage you to apply early, and then to submit transcripts as you have them, "directly to the Office of Admissions". You could try submitting a transcript with official fall/spring grades and a note that you're still enrolled for the summer.

My basic point is that neither school makes it clear, or even close to clear, whether or not this is possible. You'll either have to contact each school's admissions office directly, or take a shot in the dark. I'm personally a big fan of "shot in the dark" myself; after all, what's $80 compared to even the tiny unknown chance that they'll take you and you'll get what you want?

On the other hand, while applying might make sense, that doesn't necessarily mean transferring would. If you find out after you've applied that you made LR at GULC, you should switch to FT there and just stay, IMO. But you probably won't find out if you made LR until after the transfer app deadline, so you'd still need to get those apps in just in case.

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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby Max Power » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:27 pm

Thanks for the reply VW. I'm pretty sure all three schools accept PT transfers. I've gotten a PM from someone who transferred to Harvard from a PT program. I'm more interested in the question you addressed at the end, i.e., whether GULC + law review is better than HYS + secondary journal, for clerkship purposes. As far as Harvard, the results of their write-on competition will be released about a week before GULC's, so I wouldn't have to worry about gambling there. What about Y and S? From what I've read getting on their law reviews is surprisingly not as competitive as one might think. Stanford has no grade-ons and last year 6 out of 10 transfers who participated were able to write on (source: SLS transfer on TLS). Yale lets you walk on to any secondary journal so apparently that creates some self-selection issues that decreases competition for the flagship LR; people who know what they want to specialize in will often walk on to the relevant secondary journal rather than try to write-on to LR (source: Asha's blog).

So you think for clerkships GULC + LR > HLS + no LR. This was also the way I was leaning (although I'd be interested to hear your reasoning, or hear from people who disagree). Any thoughts on Y and S, given the above?

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vanwinkle
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:35 pm

At HLS most of the secondary journals are also walk-on (it's at their discretion how to admit students, and a few have hoops to jump through, but they're minor). A lot of people skip the LR competition entirely here; it's right after finals end (which is when transfers have to do it also, well before finding out if they were admitted), and from what I've heard, the tryout packet included over 1,000 pages of reading/source material. It's something many students don't even try for, and since LR is write-on only, that means opting out entirely.

YLS and SLS, on the other hand, let transfers compete for LR separately after they're admitted, and I've heard of people making it there each year, but you don't find out until after you transferred.

I think that (GULC + ~4.0 + LR) > (H/S - LR), for both clerkship and employment purposes. If you transfer to H or S, you're giving up your existing connections with professors and any ties to clerkships that your school can get you, and while H/S have far more prestige and placement potential overall, the best clerkships there will go to the students on LR and/or who have top grades. And I'll caution you that you don't know exactly how well you'll do at a new school; while it's common that they do, not everyone does just as well at their new school as they did at their old one.

You're giving up being first in line at your school for clerkships and jobs, in order to go get in another line. That line might have better people for the folks at the front of it, but you don't be at the front of that line no matter how well you do, and you don't know how far back you'll end up. And I understand being on LR matters quite a bit to judges because it demonstrates both that you made it on and that you got the kind of experience that goes with it. So giving up LR is a negative you've gotta make sure is outweighed by other positives, and I'm not sure it is in your case.

Yale is a black box and a mystery. They take so few transfers in the first place, and also because they're so small and prestigious seem to have more to go around for everyone. That's a very short and good line to be in no matter where in it you end up, I think. I've seen it recently put like this elsewhere on the forum: "You go to Yale to prove you got into Yale." The only person I knew of last year that successfully transferred there was well inside the top 5% at a school above GULC and had graded onto LR there. I think Yale is the one school you just don't turn down, if you're even good enough to get in.

Those are my personal views. Please keep in mind that I haven't been through the clerkship hunt yet, so this is somewhat like getting advice from a 0L who's read a lot about law school admissions but hasn't gotten in yet. It's the best that I know, but I'll be blunt about the fact that I might be wrong and not realize it. If I really am wrong, I'd love for someone with actual clerkship experience to correct me.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:38 pm

Also, what are you doing this summer? If you're going to switch to FT, whether at GULC or a new school, you'd better have at least some part-time legal internship/RA experience this summer to put on your resume.

abl
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby abl » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:50 pm

There are not six transfers on SLR, so whoever your SLS transfer source is, they're not giving you correct information.

Max Power
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby Max Power » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:37 pm

Thanks again VW. Sounds like SLS would make sense only if I miss out on GULC's LR.

abl: Thanks for the correction. I got the 6/10 figure from several old posts by user MarkTwain. Are you saying there aren't 6 transfers on the entire staff? Or just from the most recent transfer class? Twain may have been referring to the year before last. Where would you put the odds of writing on as a transfer?

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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby abl » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:41 pm

There might be 6 on the entire staff--that sounds about right. I think the odds of writing on as a transfer are about 1/3, but as I understand it there's no quota or target # of transfers on SLR; if every transfer student writing on rocked the candidate exercise, they'd all be admitted.

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vanwinkle
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:49 pm

Max Power wrote:abl: Thanks for the correction. I got the 6/10 figure from several old posts by user MarkTwain. Are you saying there aren't 6 transfers on the entire staff? Or just from the most recent transfer class? Twain may have been referring to the year before last. Where would you put the odds of writing on as a transfer?

He was referring to the year before last, since that's the year that he transferred. He was a year ahead of me and I talked to him while making my transfer decision last year.

The thing about SLS is that they don't reserve spots for transfers, they just let however many transfers meet the minimum write-on threshold onto LR. So it's possible that there were 6 his year and substantially fewer the year after, it just depends on how they each individually do. At least, that's how I understand it.

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Grond
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Re: ~#1 at GULC -> HYS?

Postby Grond » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:38 am

nealric wrote:

I'm a part-time student at GULC. We only get 2 grades in the fall (7 credits). 4 grades for 16 credits in the spring. So yeah, I admittedly have the least impressive 4.0 in the T14.

I want a clerkship. You can't grade on to GULC's law review, although grades are part of the formula. But they make everybody do the write-on. Not sure how much that should factor into my decision.

I've searched the site and read some stuff about PT transfers, but any insight on that is of course welcome. My main question is whether it would even make sense, assuming I'm still at or near the top of my class after this semester. I'm guessing staying put would be better than transferring to CCN, but that's not based on anything other than what I've gleaned from other posts here. What about HYS?


A friend of mine at GULC PT was accepted to transfer a few years ago, so it is possible to transfer. Frankly, I think it would be hard to say how things would go without spring grades.



Wasn't there a guy on LSD (should be a 3L this year) that transfered GULC PT to HLS?




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