Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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JackRyan2005
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Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby JackRyan2005 » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:45 am

I'm currently at a TTT and looking to transfer, GPA is a 3.63 and rank is top 7%, top grade in ConLaw and strong LOR from LR&W prof. So far I've applied to American, GULC, GW, GMU and W&M (trying to get to the DC/VA region as you can see, but open to going elsewhere). Not opposed to expanding the list, only thing is I'm not really sure how far my numbers will take me. Other possible targets are Penn, Fordham, NYU, BU and BC. Got til July 1st to get most apps out, so any thoughts you all may have would be appreciated.

Thane Messinger
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby Thane Messinger » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:47 am

JackRyan2005 wrote:I'm currently at a TTT and looking to transfer, GPA is a 3.63 and rank is top 7%, top grade in ConLaw and strong LOR from LR&W prof. So far I've applied to American, GULC, GW, GMU and W&M (trying to get to the DC/VA region as you can see, but open to going elsewhere). Not opposed to expanding the list, only thing is I'm not really sure how far my numbers will take me. Other possible targets are Penn, Fordham, NYU, BU and BC. Got til July 1st to get most apps out, so any thoughts you all may have would be appreciated.



There are some stats in Art of the Law School Transfer that might help. Your odds should be fairly good at most of those schools, but it would be good to get a "real" prof's strong LOR, if possible. (This is not to disparage LR&W instructors at all, but within law school there is very much a hierarchy of faculty, and they are on the bottom. Not a problem here as long as a second letter is also strong and from a full or assoc. prof (preferably).)

Hope this helps,

Thane.

concurrent fork
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby concurrent fork » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:46 am

Thane Messinger wrote:
JackRyan2005 wrote:I'm currently at a TTT and looking to transfer, GPA is a 3.63 and rank is top 7%, top grade in ConLaw and strong LOR from LR&W prof. So far I've applied to American, GULC, GW, GMU and W&M (trying to get to the DC/VA region as you can see, but open to going elsewhere). Not opposed to expanding the list, only thing is I'm not really sure how far my numbers will take me. Other possible targets are Penn, Fordham, NYU, BU and BC. Got til July 1st to get most apps out, so any thoughts you all may have would be appreciated.



There are some stats in Art of the Law School Transfer that might help. Your odds should be fairly good at most of those schools, but it would be good to get a "real" prof's strong LOR, if possible. (This is not to disparage LR&W instructors at all, but within law school there is very much a hierarchy of faculty, and they are on the bottom. Not a problem here as long as a second letter is also strong and from a full or assoc. prof (preferably).)

Hope this helps,

Thane.


I disagree. Your LRW prof probably has the best sense of your practical skill set. These also tend to be smaller classes where you are more likely to have formed a personal relationship. I cannot imagine an adcomm giving a LOR less weight because it came from your writing instructor.

If you can afford the app fees, apply everywhere you think you have even an outside chance. Transfer cycles are really unpredictable. I wouldn't get your hopes up for a T14 (except maybe GULC) but you should be competitive for the T30 range.

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JackRyan2005
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby JackRyan2005 » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:55 am

Thane: Also have an LOR coming from one of my substantive class profs, just waiting on it to register on LSAC so i wanted to get your opinions without the factor. I waited for spring semester grades to come in (probably a mistake, but eh) before asking, wanted to make sure I didn't bomb the exam before locking anyone in for an LOR.

I'm fairly new to the board, been lurking for some time just started posting, but from what I can tell I'll at least be in the mix for the places on my list, so here's to good results... I appreciate both your posts

Thane Messinger
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby Thane Messinger » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:27 am

You're quite right that LR&W instructors have a far greater knowledge of applicants. My comment wasn't as to substance as much as to the realities of the law school world. While we might hope that committees (for transfers, the dean, usually) would keep this in mind, there is the real world and then there is the real world.

To further my agreement with your disagreement, you're quite right: in most applications one should have a letter from the LR&W instructor, for the very reason you mention. Thus, a fair rule for most is this LOR plus at least one from a solid prof. (The higher ranked and respected the better, of course, but quality is far more important here.)

I hope this helps,

Thane.


concurrent fork wrote:
Thane Messinger wrote:
JackRyan2005 wrote:I'm currently at a TTT and looking to transfer, GPA is a 3.63 and rank is top 7%, top grade in ConLaw and strong LOR from LR&W prof. So far I've applied to American, GULC, GW, GMU and W&M (trying to get to the DC/VA region as you can see, but open to going elsewhere). Not opposed to expanding the list, only thing is I'm not really sure how far my numbers will take me. Other possible targets are Penn, Fordham, NYU, BU and BC. Got til July 1st to get most apps out, so any thoughts you all may have would be appreciated.



There are some stats in Art of the Law School Transfer that might help. Your odds should be fairly good at most of those schools, but it would be good to get a "real" prof's strong LOR, if possible. (This is not to disparage LR&W instructors at all, but within law school there is very much a hierarchy of faculty, and they are on the bottom. Not a problem here as long as a second letter is also strong and from a full or assoc. prof (preferably).)

Hope this helps,

Thane.


I disagree. Your LRW prof probably has the best sense of your practical skill set. These also tend to be smaller classes where you are more likely to have formed a personal relationship. I cannot imagine an adcomm giving a LOR less weight because it came from your writing instructor.

If you can afford the app fees, apply everywhere you think you have even an outside chance. Transfer cycles are really unpredictable. I wouldn't get your hopes up for a T14 (except maybe GULC) but you should be competitive for the T30 range.

concurrent fork
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Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:40 am

Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby concurrent fork » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:59 am

Fair enough. Good luck OP.

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JackRyan2005
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby JackRyan2005 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:57 pm

concurrent fork wrote:Fair enough. Good luck OP.


Thanks dude, if you wanted to throw in your two cents I'm all ears...

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romothesavior
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:59 pm

How TTT is your TTT?

GULC and GW are likely worth transferring to, but I wouldn't touch American with a ten foot pole.

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JackRyan2005
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby JackRyan2005 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:01 pm

romothesavior wrote:How TTT is your TTT?

GULC and GW are likely worth transferring to, but I wouldn't touch American with a ten foot pole.


I would say its in the "upper echelon" of TTT. . . if there is such a thing

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romothesavior
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:08 pm

JackRyan2005 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:How TTT is your TTT?

GULC and GW are likely worth transferring to, but I wouldn't touch American with a ten foot pole.


I would say its in the "upper echelon" of TTT. . . if there is such a thing


Oh there certainly is such a thing. How do you feel your job prospects are at your current rank? How much are you paying? Do you like your current school?

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JackRyan2005
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby JackRyan2005 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:
JackRyan2005 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:How TTT is your TTT?

GULC and GW are likely worth transferring to, but I wouldn't touch American with a ten foot pole.


I would say its in the "upper echelon" of TTT. . . if there is such a thing


Oh there certainly is such a thing. How do you feel your job prospects are at your current rank? How much are you paying? Do you like your current school?


Some background on my situation: Always planned on going to law school, thought I was a lock at a T2 or so initially based on ugpa and practice LSAT, but ended up bombing the LSAT, twice. Like 12 points lower than my practices. Really came out of the blue, pissed me off quite a bit. School I'm at was my safety option and I only got in off the WL. Paying sticker price to go (I know, bad idea). But here I am, killed it last year, and I'm really trying to trade up, mostly because I want to try to get a job in biglaw in a major market. The way I look at it now, worst case is I stay at this TTT, I'll be on Law Review, and have a chance at least at a decent job in the private sector.

Job prospects are a huge concern for a number of reasons. School is certainly regional and the surrounding market is saturated anyway, and while there are some big name firms in the area (Millbank Tweed has an office nearby, some others I forget at the moment), they haven't taken very many of our grads on a consistent basis. I asked the career center last week if they could provide me with a list of employers who would be available at OCI (so I could begin research, etc) and they were unable to do so. I take this to mean that they do not have a group of employers that consistently recruit our students in steady numbers. This spring, while applying for jobs, I was going off of my first semester GPA (higher than current, was in top 4%) and couldn't get an interview with an office that paid. Every job I did interview for, a 2L interviewed for as well, which tells me that they didn't do so hot at OCI, which leads me to believe that this fall OCI will be saturated with a bunch of 3Ls.

I understand the economy, however these experiences have me seriously concerned about my job prospects, even with such a high rank and journal membership. Furthermore, its a TTT degree, no geographic mobility if things don't work out in the area around school.

I may be overstating the job prospects issue a bit, as the school is well respected locally and in the surrounding areas (people regularly transfer to it from other TTT and TTTTs) and in a booming economy, I'd have no problem.

Generally, I like the school. Its close to home, faculty is fantastic for the most part, good people, as laid back of an environment as one can hope for in law school. Nobody is tearing pages out of library books or anything.

IDK maybe I'm being overly pessimistic about the job part, what do you guys think?

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MURPH
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Re: Should I apply to more places or is it a waste of money?

Postby MURPH » Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:24 am

You are worried about job prospects on one hand and asking if it is worth it to spend a few more hundreds of dollars on getting into a tier 1 school on the other hand.

It is worth a few hundred dollars on extra applications now to improve your odds of landing a job that pays tens of thousands of dollars more two years from now.

If you have to choos between doing well at your T3 and land a job that pays 65K because you want to save a few hundred dollars vs graduating from a T1 and landing a job that pays 120K then the few hundred dollars extra will be a good investment.

A lot of transferers have said that the students aren't much smarter, if at all in higher ranked schools. You can do well anywhere.




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