OCI fears

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
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Matthies
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Re: OCI fears

Postby Matthies » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:35 pm

PKSebben wrote:WTF are you talking about? People lateral to different states all the time. It is not, by any measure, uncommon. If you're a good lawyer, those skills translate jurisdictions. Once you get a book, things change, but for Joe Blow Associate laterals happen ALL THE TIME. Especially major market to smaller market. NYC to Cleveland? Yes. DC to Austin? Yes. Niche matters far more than geography. Don't expect to practice entertainment law in Lexington.


I disagree with this, at least from what i have seen and been told by nurmourse lawyers here. Year 1-3 transfers OK (and you have to take the bar again), but then after that your pretty much set in stone where you're at (now being transferred by the same firm to a diffrent market is very different).

But if you're at year five, you better have a book, and if you do not, and not on the partner track at your old firm your just a very expensive mid level associate with no local contacts that for some reason did not make partner track back home. Sure your reason may be you family got sick and you have to move back, but the firms won't look at it like that, you're the casualty of up and out to them. They except something to be wrong with you.

They don't want to pay you 5th year associate salary while you try to make contacts and create a book, especially if they think you got not offered partner route back home. Of course you can always move and start your own firm, but a big, big part of the legal world is who you know, and at five year mark that's pretty much your best card to play.

As was described above the regional basis is a BIG thing, its extremely prevalent in my market, but gets ever worse for lawyers AFTER law school. NYC biglaw to Denver is not like it appears on here, there is no desperation to hire a NYC biglaw 5th year associate (and his costs) if he has no local contacts, knowledge or clients (and since we don't, or did not have reporcoity with NYC he has to take our bar and get addmited).

Being a good lawyer is great for solo practice and small firm, being a good revenue generator is what big firms in secondary markets really want, and if you can't bring that, they really don't have much interest in you. Shitty lawyer with big book (aka peoples skills and BS skills) is better than great lawyer with no book. hence why many great lawyers with both, book from firms by year 6-7, if your good at what you do AND you have your own clelients, then get the hell out of a firm where PPP is killing you when you make the bank.

Anyway, this is just what i have seen here and been told by the lawyers I know, most of whom have 10 years experince or more, so I trust when they tell me something about the market they know (since less than half of those who start as lawyers stay in the profesion for more than 10 years, or so says our bar assn.)

06072010
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Re: OCI fears

Postby 06072010 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:50 pm

I respect your posts here, but I don't think you are correct. I think you are heavily talking about biglaw, which doesn't employ most lawyers and your years of service seem way off. Regarding BIGLAW, attrition rate after 3 years is near 80%. Where do these guys go? Smaller firms. Very rarely do firms let associates have books. At my firm, you can't even HAVE a book until year 8. You hand that shit off to a partner and maybe -- MAYBE -- do you get an origination credit. That's not the same as having a book. Your value as a mid/senior associate is the ability to step into a firm and hit the ground running. If you take a look at the lateral markets, no mid-level / senior associate listings are requiring books. I don't even know where you are getting that.

Also, BIGLAW firms in secondary markets don't ramp up the associate pay like NYC does, so you are not that much of a cost for them. Experienced associates are not the lepers of the legal market you make them out to be. You must have them confused with 2010/2011 grads. Those are the lepers.

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romothesavior
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Re: OCI fears

Postby romothesavior » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:06 pm

--ImageRemoved--

06072010
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Re: OCI fears

Postby 06072010 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:07 pm

man I love meme generators.

rando
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Re: OCI fears

Postby rando » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:16 pm

PKSebben wrote:I respect your posts here, but I don't think you are correct. I think you are heavily talking about biglaw, which doesn't employ most lawyers and your years of service seem way off. Regarding BIGLAW, attrition rate after 3 years is near 80%. Where do these guys go? Smaller firms. Very rarely do firms let associates have books. At my firm, you can't even HAVE a book until year 8. You hand that shit off to a partner and maybe -- MAYBE -- do you get an origination credit. That's not the same as having a book. Your value as a mid/senior associate is the ability to step into a firm and hit the ground running. If you take a look at the lateral markets, no mid-level / senior associate listings are requiring books. I don't even know where you are getting that.

Also, BIGLAW firms in secondary markets don't ramp up the associate pay like NYC does, so you are not that much of a cost for them. Experienced associates are not the lepers of the legal market you make them out to be. You must have them confused with 2010/2011 grads. Those are the lepers.


Yes.

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Matthies
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Re: OCI fears

Postby Matthies » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:51 pm

PKSebben wrote:I respect your posts here, but I don't think you are correct. I think you are heavily talking about biglaw, which doesn't employ most lawyers and your years of service seem way off. Regarding BIGLAW, attrition rate after 3 years is near 80%. Where do these guys go? Smaller firms. Very rarely do firms let associates have books. At my firm, you can't even HAVE a book until year 8. You hand that shit off to a partner and maybe -- MAYBE -- do you get an origination credit. That's not the same as having a book. Your value as a mid/senior associate is the ability to step into a firm and hit the ground running. If you take a look at the lateral markets, no mid-level / senior associate listings are requiring books. I don't even know where you are getting that. .


Not here. I can post add after add popping up on the CBA listsever for 5 year associates with book or don't apply. Remember our big law here is maybe 250 lawyers in a firm. Mid/law small law predominate (as you rightly point out) but its also a very tough market to crack, its connections based and no connoctetions and no book makes you not worth anything to local firms.

It's just not like we need to import talent, there are plenty here and a big reason they are successful is because they know everybody, and I mean everybody. Its scary how many judges I know all went to law school together. I mean shit our bar asscoiation posts a book twice year with every lawyers name it for free, its that kind of market. Here its either you have a book by 7 to make partner or if your really good at something, niche market, you'll stay on as "of counsel." But like I said, most who start at large firms jump ship as soon as they have a decent book, or get drummed out. There is no room in any form here for 8 year associates with no book, the markets just too small (and per capita too many damn lawyers here). hence there is not this big pull from other markets. And also why the ten year still pratcing rate is so small, most people don't have the skill as soon as they need it to create the biz to stay on at a firm or start thier won, so they are out.

Denver as much as it tries to be a cosmoaltian city is still a cowtown old boy network. Who you know is how things get done here, and there is not enough bushiness coming in for associates to wait to have a book by 8 (hell its 7 years to partner here). At the last big firm I worked at a good 45% of my time was spent creating business for clients, in other words finding new leglsitation that might impact them for my managing partner and then having him draft a letter saying we think you, i.e. us as your law firm, should look into this for you (and bill you for it) to make sure your in complaince (mostly environmental CAA, CWA and Oil shale stuff). We did not have enough biz coming in through the door to be reactive, we had to be proactive and create it, and this was at one of the largest firms in the region not just Denver.

Again, I'm only talking about MY MARKET, because that's all I know (and hence I don't through out generalities and specifilly say HERE) but what you said applies everywhere, has not, at least in the five years i have been active in the legal community, been what i have seen or been told.

06072010
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Re: OCI fears

Postby 06072010 » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:53 pm

Shit, why do I keep thinking you are in NYC?

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Matthies
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Re: OCI fears

Postby Matthies » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:54 pm

PKSebben wrote:Shit, why do I keep thinking you are in NYC.


LOL, I've never been to NYC actually, no, I'm 45-60 mins from VAIL :)

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samiseaborn
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Re: OCI fears

Postby samiseaborn » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:32 am

Sort of related... a big reason for some transferring is a chance at academia, but other than your transfer application, can you actually say that out loud to anyone? Maybe I'm wrong about how one gets to academia (I understand it isn't an guaranteed career choice), but most of my profs worked in firms for just a few years before turning to teaching. I assume that goal isn't one you are going to mention at OCI at all? And do OCI interviewers ever question why you transferred?

yabbadabbado
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Re: OCI fears

Postby yabbadabbado » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:00 am

Keep your mouth shut about academia at OCI. Firms want people that are going to churn out billable hours, not people with "higher aspirations".

Every interviewer is going to ask you why you transferred. Your career counselor and transfer 3L should help you come up with a range of acceptable answers. It's not anything to worry about.

samiseaborn wrote:Sort of related... a big reason for some transferring is a chance at academia, but other than your transfer application, can you actually say that out loud to anyone? Maybe I'm wrong about how one gets to academia (I understand it isn't an guaranteed career choice), but most of my profs worked in firms for just a few years before turning to teaching. I assume that goal isn't one you are going to mention at OCI at all? And do OCI interviewers ever question why you transferred?

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samiseaborn
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Re: OCI fears

Postby samiseaborn » Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:21 am

Thanks, that's kind of what I figured. It's okay to mention it to LOR writers though, right? I just don't want to burn any bridges by accident.

yabbadabbado
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Re: OCI fears

Postby yabbadabbado » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:34 am

If it's true, mention it to your 1L prof writers. Profs understand that students want to transfer to higher ranked schools for a variety of reasons.

samiseaborn wrote:Thanks, that's kind of what I figured. It's okay to mention it to LOR writers though, right? I just don't want to burn any bridges by accident.




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