T25 w/$ -> T10?

A forum for those current students who are or may be transferring from one school to another. Post any questions, advice, or other transfer related comments here.
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only available to the creator of each thread. The anonymous posting feature is intended to permit the solicitation of anonymous advice regarding the transfer application process, chances of being accepted, etc. Unacceptable uses include: testing the feature, questions which are clearly fake or hypothetical in nature, harassing other users, etc. Posters should also read and understand the announcements posted at the top of the Transfers forum prior to using the anonymous feature.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
savetheturtles
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:35 pm

T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby savetheturtles » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:23 am

.
Last edited by savetheturtles on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:47 pm

savetheturtles wrote:I am currently at a T25 and I am considering a T10 transfer. I am mainly interested in the NYC market and it really seems like the T25s in general got the worst of this past OCI (not to mention my T25 had less than 10 NYC firms at OCI). My first semester grades were between top 10-15%. Although I know that a lot will depend on my second semester grades, I need to figure out now whether it would be even worth it to transfer so that I can get letters of recs handled and prepare apps.

Right now I am looking at Columbia, NYU, and Penn. C and N are possible only if I do better this semester and P might to be an option if I stay the same. Although transferring means losing my 1L gpa, an almost sure shot at a secondary journal (with the possibility of LR is I improve/write on), $60,000 more in debt ($170000 total estimate), and leaving a school I really like, I am very concerned with my employment prospects here. On the other hand, it seems like T10 transfers didn't do that well this year at OCI and I don't have any pre-1L work experience to help me out. Would transferring be worth it? Would only C/N be worth it? Thanks!


Are you at ND, UIUC, IU, etc? If so, I think transferring anywhere into the t12 (maybe even Cornell) would make sense because those schools are competitive in the market that you want to be in. OCI will probably be a crapshoot, though, because most NYC firms don't typically hire at your school (even in a good economy), so you won't have much of an alumni base there (meaning the firm will have a tough time comparing you to the non-transfer 2Ls at your transfer school). However, in the long run it probably makes sense to transfer to a school that is competitive in the market that you want to be in because it increases your odds of getting into NYC after graduation.

Anyway, in your situation you are looking at $110K in debt as it is, another $60K really isn't going to be that much worse to attend a t12/13. Financially, things change a little if your current schools offers you money to stay, but from my understanding t25 schools don't typically offer much of a scholarship increase to stay there. So if that's the case then it makes sense to leave (because you're long term job prospects will outweigh the extra $60K).

rando
Posts: 908
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:57 pm

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby rando » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:02 pm

As far as I know, everyone on LR at my school (now T25) has a good summer 2L job lined up. Probably 85/15-biglaw/PI or govt. That constitutes about 15% of the class, though not necessarily top 15%.

I know of at least 3 transfers that completely struck out at their T10 OCI's and basically spent the next 6 months to pick up anything they could. It is obviously impossible to "guarantee" they would have been employed if they stayed, but on average they certainly would have fared better. And still had scholarships.

Transferring from T30ish makes no sense to me unless you are already paying sticker and you want to go into academia or something basically shut out of T30 schools. But for someone with already great grades from a school that isn't getting shut out from hiring like a T2 would, transferring makes little sense.

User avatar
Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1908
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:56 am

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:14 pm

rando wrote:Transferring from T30ish makes no sense to me unless you are already paying sticker and you want to go into academia or something basically shut out of T30 schools. But for someone with already great grades from a school that isn't getting shut out from hiring like a T2 would, transferring makes little sense.


I agree.

If someone chose to go to school in the region they want to work in and landed top 15% or higher at a T1, they would be going backwards by transferring anywhere but HYS (and even then, most of that is ego = unless you are interested on academia).

I'm not sure the OP went to a school in his/her region. While he/she may want to work in NYC, I personally believe giving up an excellent shot at a NLJ 250 (if that's the goal) for a mediocre shot at a T14 is backwards as well (In theory, transfers are treated as median students).

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:43 pm

rando wrote:Transferring from T30ish makes no sense to me unless you are already paying sticker and you want to go into academia or something basically shut out of T30 schools. But for someone with already great grades from a school that isn't getting shut out from hiring like a T2 would, transferring makes little sense.


A good reason to transfer is not being in the region you want to be. If the OP goes to ND, UIUC, IU, etc (as I suspect) he/she has a good shot in the midwest, but not so good at NYC (because NYC firms don't typically recruit at any of those schools)

Aberzombie1892 wrote:(In theory, transfers are treated as median students).


That's just wrong. You don't lose you're grades and accomplishments from your old school by transferring, but you do gain access to firms that would not have considered you at all if you had not transferred. If anything, OP's shot at NYC firms would be slightly better then if if he/she remained at his/her current school (I think it's safe to assume the t25 isn't a school in NYC). However, the loss is potentially getting shut out of the region that the t25 places well in, and not getting anything in NYC because the firm doesn't how to compare OP to students at the new school (because they don't typically recruit there). I think the bottom line is if OP is in the midwest for school, and is okay with staying there after graduation, then transferring might not be worth it outside of the t6 schools or so. However, if OP only wants NYC (and isn't planning on even interviewing with firms in the region the school is strong in), then transferring makes a lot of sense.

rando
Posts: 908
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:57 pm

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby rando » Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:56 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
rando wrote:Transferring from T30ish makes no sense to me unless you are already paying sticker and you want to go into academia or something basically shut out of T30 schools. But for someone with already great grades from a school that isn't getting shut out from hiring like a T2 would, transferring makes little sense.


A good reason to transfer is not being in the region you want to be. If the OP goes to ND, UIUC, IU, etc (as I suspect) he/she has a good shot in the midwest, but not so good at NYC (because NYC firms don't typically recruit at any of those schools)

Aberzombie1892 wrote:(In theory, transfers are treated as median students).


That's just wrong. You don't lose you're grades and accomplishments from your old school by transferring, but you do gain access to firms that would not have considered you at all if you had not transferred. If anything, OP's shot at NYC firms would be slightly better then if if he/she remained at his/her current school (I think it's safe to assume the t25 isn't a school in NYC). However, the loss is potentially getting shut out of the region that the t25 places well in, and not getting anything in NYC because the firm doesn't how to compare OP to students at the new school (because they don't typically recruit there). I think the bottom line is if OP is in the midwest for school, and is okay with staying there after graduation, then transferring might not be worth it outside of the t6 schools or so. However, if OP only wants NYC (and isn't planning on even interviewing with firms in the region the school is strong in), then transferring makes a lot of sense.


Sure. That is a possible reason. I won't even get into why OP went to a school either with the intent of transferring or with no such intent but in a place you didn't want to be in.

As far as getting access at OCI, that is great. But firms aren't stupid. And even if the school has a lottery or ranking pref system, a lot of those interviews are just wasted time because firms won't give transfers the time of day. You don't lose your merit from the past institution, but you don't gain any extra favor from the new school. The problem comes, for instance, when you are at a T25, whose bread and butter firms are maybe V100. Going through OCI there, you have a great shot, but not at new school when you are interviewing with V20 or in a different region than your T25 and the name of your previous institution carries no weight.

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:01 pm

rando wrote:Sure. That is a possible reason. I won't even get into why OP went to a school either with the intent of transferring or with no such intent but in a place you didn't want to be in.


Probably didn't research odds of actually getting back to NYC before attending law school. Or possibly talking to the t25 school and asked them about odds of getting back. E.g. I recall in the Dean Pless thread, Pless was telling people that it's possible to get to NYC and other areas of the country and that people do it, which isn't a lie. However, I could also see how someone could misinterpret that as a reasonable chance of leaving the midwest, which isn't true.

rando wrote:As far as getting access at OCI, that is great. But firms aren't stupid. And even if the school has a lottery or ranking pref system, a lot of those interviews are just wasted time because firms won't give transfers the time of day. You don't lose your merit from the past institution, but you don't gain any extra favor from the new school. The problem comes, for instance, when you are at a T25, whose bread and butter firms are maybe V100. Going through OCI there, you have a great shot, but not at new school when you are interviewing with V20 or in a different region than your T25 and the name of your previous institution carries no weight.


You're right, and I agree the odds aren't great at NYC by transferring via OCI. But if OP is solely aiming for NYC odds will still be better of getting something at all in NYC (even if it isn't until after graduation). Biglaw's not necessarily out the door, but going to be tough, particularly now that firms don't let you switch up to a different firm/office via 3L OCI (3L OCI is pretty much nonexistent). Being at a regional school that's not in the region you want to practice is just a really shitty position to be in (in general). Unfortunately, there are a LOT of people that do that kind of a thing (e.g. at my t3 there were people from all over the country that had no intention of remaining in that state (roughly 40-50% said they wanted to leave the state during orientation) even though the school only placed well in that state).

savetheturtles
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:35 pm

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby savetheturtles » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:12 pm

.
Last edited by savetheturtles on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

rando
Posts: 908
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:57 pm

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby rando » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:20 pm

savetheturtles wrote:
rando wrote:As far as I know, everyone on LR at my school (now T25) has a good summer 2L job lined up. Probably 85/15-biglaw/PI or govt. That constitutes about 15% of the class, though not necessarily top 15%.

I know of at least 3 transfers that completely struck out at their T10 OCI's and basically spent the next 6 months to pick up anything they could.

This striking out is my biggest fear. However, did many of the LR people find work outside your school's market (if they were looking)?


Hopefully things will be better this year. Obviously no guarantees but from what I hear, this year's 2L OCI isn't going to be quite as slammed as last year. If you do transfer, bid appropriately. By god, do not be bidding on V20's. That is a wasted interview.

My compadres on LR did go to NY, several of them. And several others could have gone, but well, we chose to go to Emory for Atlanta, not NY. That being said, Emory is known for placing well in NY despite its regional background. I honestly don't have a clue if that would compare with ND in NY.

User avatar
XxSpyKEx
Posts: 1797
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:48 am

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:11 pm

rando wrote:... from what I hear, this year's 2L OCI isn't going to be quite as slammed as last year.


Analysts are predicting a modest improvement this upcoming fall. Last year there was a total of 256 SA spots total for NALP firms (and that includes IP boutiques) in Chicago and a LOT of schools fighting for those (there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area alone, then you factor in UIUC + schools like Michigan, ND, IU, etc-- not great odds). My guess is around 300 SA spots this year, maybe. So top 15% is far from a lock at ND for Chicago. That said, OP, you probably won't do much better in NYC during OCI. In the long run, if you really want NYC (and not really Chicago), transferring is probably going to be the best. But I wouldn't count on biglaw working out (but it might).

Give me a minute and I'll edit in the numbers I posted on another site for Chicago just to give you a better idea of what firm hiring this last year looked like.

EDIT
XxSpyKEx wrote:Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16 :shock:

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11 :shock:

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20 :shock:

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9 :shock:

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6 :shock:

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256 :shock:

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.

09042014
Posts: 18280
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: T25 w/$ -> T10?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:21 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
rando wrote:... from what I hear, this year's 2L OCI isn't going to be quite as slammed as last year.


Analysts are predicting a modest improvement this upcoming fall. Last year there was a total of 256 SA spots total for NALP firms (and that includes IP boutiques) in Chicago and a LOT of schools fighting for those (there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area alone, then you factor in UIUC + schools like Michigan, ND, IU, etc-- not great odds). My guess is around 300 SA spots this year, maybe. So top 15% is far from a lock at ND for Chicago. That said, OP, you probably won't do much better in NYC during OCI. In the long run, if you really want NYC (and not really Chicago), transferring is probably going to be the best. But I wouldn't count on biglaw working out (but it might).

Give me a minute and I'll edit in the numbers I posted on another site for Chicago just to give you a better idea of what firm hiring this last year looked like.

EDIT
XxSpyKEx wrote:Law firm name
2008 2009 2010 [2L SA class]

Baker & McKenzie LLP – Chicago
2 8 4

Banner & Witcoff, Ltd.
5 3 3

Barnes & Thornburg LLP
3 0 0

BRINKS HOFER GILSON & LIONE
7 12 1

BRYAN CAVE LLP – CHICAGO
6 3 2

Butler Rubin Saltarelli & Boyd LLP
1 1 1

Chapman and Cutler LLP
10 9 7

DLA Piper LLP (US)
18 7 5

Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP
12 5 4

DYKEMA (Dykema Gossett PLLC) - CHICAGO OFFICE
6 3 2

FITCH EVEN TABIN & FLANNERY
7 1 0

FOLEY & LARDNER LLP- CHICAGO
21 9 4

Goldberg Kohn Ltd.
8 1 1

Greenberg Traurig, LLP
6 7 3

Hinshaw & Culbertson LLP
18 7 8

Holland & Knight LLP – Chicago
6 4 2

JENNER & BLOCK LLP
40 46 16 :shock:

JONES DAY – CHICAGO
17 21 8

K&L Gates LLP - Chicago, IL
10 13 3

Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP
29 15 5

KIRKLAND & ELLIS LLP – Chicago
54 52 32

LATHAM & WATKINS LLP – CHICAGO
25 20 9

Locke Lord Bissell & Liddell LLP – Chicago
11 2 2

Lovells LLP
7 4 2

Marshall, Gerstein & Borun LLP
4 2 4

MAYER BROWN LLP
71 46 11 :shock:

McAndrews, Held & Malloy, Ltd.
7 4 4

McDermott Will & Emery LLP
14 14 8

McDonnell Boehnen Hulbert & Berghoff LLP
9 9 9

McGuireWoods LLP – Chicago
8 11 4

Michael Best & Friedrich LLP
2 2 1

Miller Shakman & Beem LLP
2 1 0

Morgan, Lewis & Bockius LLP
5 3 0

Neal, Gerber & Eisenberg LLP
19 10 0

NIXON PEABODY LLP - Chicago, IL
2 1 2

Paul, Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP
14 5 5

Perkins Coie LLP
4 3 1

Pircher, Nichols & Meeks
3 3 3

Quarles & Brady LLP
3 3 0

Reed Smith – Chicago
6 6 2

Ropes & Gray LLP
0 6 5

Schiff Hardin LLP
12 21 8

SEYFARTH SHAW LLP – CHICAGO
9 6 0

Shefsky & Froelich Ltd
2 1 1

SIDLEY AUSTIN LLP – CHICAGO
75 43 20 :shock:

SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM LLP - CHICAGO
57 33 9 :shock:

Sonnenschein Nath & Rosenthal LLP
43 14 6 :shock:

Thompson Coburn LLP
3 1 1

Ungaretti & Harris LLP
6 4 3

Vedder Price, P.C.
10 5 0

WILDMAN, HARROLD, ALLEN & DIXON LLP
14 17 3

Winston & Strawn LLP
67 54 22

2008 SA total= 809

2009 SA total= 581

2010 SA total= 256 :shock:

2010 SA/ 2009 SA = 256/581= 44% of the SAs that were available in 2009 were available in 2010

2010 SA/2008 SA = 256/809 = 31.6% of the SAs that were available in 2008 were available in 2010

The 256 number doesn’t seem to bad, but then again, it is right around the size of NU’s class alone, and then you figure there are 6 schools in the Chicagoland area aiming for those + UIUC, WUSTL, ND, IU, & UMich at least to some extent shooting for those spots. Pretty brutal all things considered.


That makes my ass clinch.




Return to “Transfers”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.