NYC area T2 to Fordham?

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afterglow99
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NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby afterglow99 » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:42 pm

What gpa would it take and is it worth it? I want NYC big law, and I have a 3.67 on a B curve (no class rank). I'm worried that if I stay it would take top 5% to get big law and I'm fairly sure my gpa puts me outside of that.

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patrickd139
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby patrickd139 » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:27 pm

afterglow99 wrote:What gpa would it take and is it worth it? I want NYC big law, and I have a 3.67 on a B curve (no class rank). I'm worried that if I stay it would take top 5% to get big law and I'm fairly sure my gpa puts me outside of that.

I doubt many people on this forum are going to advocate transferring to Fordham for a shot at biglaw, but I really don't know (and wanted to get IBOS).

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:15 pm

I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't see this. On a true B curve, a 3.67 is a phenomenal GPA. Seriously, congrats! Fordham curves somewhere in the 3.16-3.19 range (changes each year), and a GPA like that is about top 6%. Now, here is what you need to consider. Schools cannot admit too many students from each "feeder" transfer school, so I have noticed that it is easier to get into higher ranked schools outside your immediate geographic area. I do think your grades are high enough for a good shot at Fordham, and I think you should apply here, and also to NYU and CLS, because you really never know, and you want to maximize your chances. I would also think of putting in for other T30 and T20 schools. Are you interested in BU or BC? These schools are not better for NYC biglaw than Fordham is, but they will give you a better shot at biglaw than your current school. You may also want to look at other schools ranked between Fordham and NYU, though it is perfectly understandable if, due to personal concerns, you cannot leave NYC. I think you do stand a good shot of getting into Fordham, though I should caution you that my classmates are worried about biglaw chances ITE. We have a bigger cushion, but we don't have anything close to a guarantee. I love my school, and have been very happy here, but at this point, I'm not certain what the biglaw cutoff is going to be for our class. I want you to be as happy with your choice as I have been.

imchuckbass58
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:23 pm

afterglow99 wrote:What gpa would it take and is it worth it? I want NYC big law, and I have a 3.67 on a B curve (no class rank). I'm worried that if I stay it would take top 5% to get big law and I'm fairly sure my gpa puts me outside of that.


Depending on the distribution, 3.67 could be a very high class rank. CLS curves to a 3.2-3.3 median, yet 3.4 is top 30% and 3.8 is top 3%. Assuming a similar skew you are easily top 10%.

That said, I'm not sure how good your chances at biglaw are going to be at Fordham, especially since you'll be judged at OCI largely according to your old grades anyways. I guess if you're paying full tuition right now there's no harm, but I would be careful if you're sitting on a scholarship.

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A'nold
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby A'nold » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:47 pm

OP- your school is known to send quite a few into biglaw. You might just go t14 or bust, in all honesty. Plus, your tution is probably half of what you'd pay at Fordham.

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avatard
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby avatard » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:08 pm

Do Fordham/NYU/CLS offer any scholarship money to transfers? Anyone know?

I'd be coming out of Brooklyn Law School, because my undergraduate freshman year has been gutting my apps. All the softs don't mean a damn thing. I'm so ready to do everything in my power to slaughter the 1L material.

270910
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby 270910 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:36 pm

avatard wrote:Do Fordham/NYU/CLS offer any scholarship money to transfers? Anyone know?

I'd be coming out of Brooklyn Law School, because my undergraduate freshman year has been gutting my apps. All the softs don't mean a damn thing. I'm so ready to do everything in my power to slaughter the 1L material.


#1 no.

#2 good luck. What could go wrong?

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:26 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't see this. On a true B curve, a 3.67 is a phenomenal GPA. Seriously, congrats! Fordham curves somewhere in the 3.16-3.19 range (changes each year), and a GPA like that is about top 6%.


imchuckbass58 wrote:Depending on the distribution, 3.67 could be a very high class rank. CLS curves to a 3.2-3.3 median, yet 3.4 is top 30% and 3.8 is top 3%. Assuming a similar skew you are easily top 10%.


The underlined is the key. It's really impossible to make judgments of what class rank a 3.67 is without knowing that the A range on the curve is because even a B curve (3.0 median) a 3.67 could easily be outside the top 10%. E.g. my t3 last year was on a B- curve (2.67 median), yet my 3.84 was right around top 5-6% (we got exact X/total students class ranks). A 3.67 would have been outside the top 10%. However, the A range on our curve was 25% As for 1L and there was no required A/A- split so most profs would usually cut it 50/50, and 12.5% true As (i.e. not A-s) is actually a higher A range then the targeted median true A range at my current school (which is on a B+ curve).

So as far as transferring it is impossible to gauge odds without knowing class rank, and estimating class rank is impossible just based on the median. OP, maybe your school has charts GPA/Class rank correlation charts somewhere that you could take a look at just to give you a better idea based on historical trends?

afterglow99
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby afterglow99 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:41 pm

A'nold wrote:OP- your school is known to send quite a few into biglaw. You might just go t14 or bust, in all honesty. Plus, your tution is probably half of what you'd pay at Fordham.


True, we had been sending about the same amount into biglaw as dozo/bls/st johns during the boom years, but the big difference is that many of these offers are in Newark, not NYC. Still great paying jobs, but you have to work in...Newark.

I tried inquiring with the administration about the rough distribution of grades along the curve and was basically berated for even asking. They keep this information on lock down, there's really no way of knowing.

Opera - good points about schools limiting the numbers coming in from feeders. My school actually has very few people transferring out every year, probably because the low tuition discourages people from leaving. Fordham was always my number 1 target when originally applying and I want to stay in NYC. One of my best friends is a 1LE now too and he has nothing but good things to say about the school. I'm throwing out apps to Columbia and NYU, but unless my grades increase this semester, the odds don't look good. If I were to leave, Fordham seems like the most realistic option that would justify a transfer.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:47 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't see this. On a true B curve, a 3.67 is a phenomenal GPA. Seriously, congrats! Fordham curves somewhere in the 3.16-3.19 range (changes each year), and a GPA like that is about top 6%.


imchuckbass58 wrote:Depending on the distribution, 3.67 could be a very high class rank. CLS curves to a 3.2-3.3 median, yet 3.4 is top 30% and 3.8 is top 3%. Assuming a similar skew you are easily top 10%.


The underlined is the key. It's really impossible to make judgments of what class rank a 3.67 is without knowing that the A range on the curve is because even a B curve (3.0 median) a 3.67 could easily be outside the top 10%. E.g. my t3 last year was on a B- curve (2.67 median), yet my 3.84 was right around top 5-6% (we got exact X/total students class ranks). A 3.67 would have been outside the top 10%. However, the A range on our curve was 25% As for 1L and there was no required A/A- split so most profs would usually cut it 50/50, and 12.5% true As (i.e. not A-s) is actually a higher A range then the targeted median true A range at my current school (which is on a B+ curve).

So as far as transferring it is impossible to gauge odds without knowing class rank, and estimating class rank is impossible just based on the median. OP, maybe your school has charts GPA/Class rank correlation charts somewhere that you could take a look at just to give you a better idea based on historical trends?


This is quite interesting, and I stand corrected. I assumed most schools had similar distributions, but it appears we have a tight curve.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:50 pm

afterglow99 wrote:
A'nold wrote:OP- your school is known to send quite a few into biglaw. You might just go t14 or bust, in all honesty. Plus, your tution is probably half of what you'd pay at Fordham.


True, we had been sending about the same amount into biglaw as dozo/bls/st johns during the boom years, but the big difference is that many of these offers are in Newark, not NYC. Still great paying jobs, but you have to work in...Newark.

I tried inquiring with the administration about the rough distribution of grades along the curve and was basically berated for even asking. They keep this information on lock down, there's really no way of knowing.

Opera - good points about schools limiting the numbers coming in from feeders. My school actually has very few people transferring out every year, probably because the low tuition discourages people from leaving. Fordham was always my number 1 target when originally applying and I want to stay in NYC. One of my best friends is a 1LE now too and he has nothing but good things to say about the school. I'm throwing out apps to Columbia and NYU, but unless my grades increase this semester, the odds don't look good. If I were to leave, Fordham seems like the most realistic option that would justify a transfer.


Definitely apply. Fordham has been a wonderful experience, but even if you decide to stay, you may be able to leverage an acceptance for scholarship money. Can you talk to 2Ls and 2Ls for insight into your curve? This was helpful for me. I think you would like Fordham, but of course you will have some great options with your current GPA. It's quite respectable even if your school is like spyke's former school.

afterglow99
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby afterglow99 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:54 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't see this. On a true B curve, a 3.67 is a phenomenal GPA. Seriously, congrats! Fordham curves somewhere in the 3.16-3.19 range (changes each year), and a GPA like that is about top 6%.


imchuckbass58 wrote:Depending on the distribution, 3.67 could be a very high class rank. CLS curves to a 3.2-3.3 median, yet 3.4 is top 30% and 3.8 is top 3%. Assuming a similar skew you are easily top 10%.


The underlined is the key. It's really impossible to make judgments of what class rank a 3.67 is without knowing that the A range on the curve is because even a B curve (3.0 median) a 3.67 could easily be outside the top 10%. E.g. my t3 last year was on a B- curve (2.67 median), yet my 3.84 was right around top 5-6% (we got exact X/total students class ranks). A 3.67 would have been outside the top 10%. However, the A range on our curve was 25% As for 1L and there was no required A/A- split so most profs would usually cut it 50/50, and 12.5% true As (i.e. not A-s) is actually a higher A range then the targeted median true A range at my current school (which is on a B+ curve).

So as far as transferring it is impossible to gauge odds without knowing class rank, and estimating class rank is impossible just based on the median. OP, maybe your school has charts GPA/Class rank correlation charts somewhere that you could take a look at just to give you a better idea based on historical trends?


Hmm, I'd be shocked if our curve was that wide. The only data I have is a breakdown from ONE of my first semester classes. I've been told it is fairly typical -

A 105-1/2-105 points-------2
A- 94-90-1/2 points---------5
B+ 85-1/2-79-1/2 points-----8
B 75-1/2-56-1/2 points----39
B- 51-47 points-------------9
C+ 44-1/2-43-1/2 points-----2
C 39 points----------------1
C- 36-32-1/2 points---------3
D 28-1/2 points------------1

None of this, however, really matters unless the schools you transfer to know what your curve looks like.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:48 am

afterglow99 wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I was traveling this weekend, so I didn't see this. On a true B curve, a 3.67 is a phenomenal GPA. Seriously, congrats! Fordham curves somewhere in the 3.16-3.19 range (changes each year), and a GPA like that is about top 6%.


imchuckbass58 wrote:Depending on the distribution, 3.67 could be a very high class rank. CLS curves to a 3.2-3.3 median, yet 3.4 is top 30% and 3.8 is top 3%. Assuming a similar skew you are easily top 10%.


The underlined is the key. It's really impossible to make judgments of what class rank a 3.67 is without knowing that the A range on the curve is because even a B curve (3.0 median) a 3.67 could easily be outside the top 10%. E.g. my t3 last year was on a B- curve (2.67 median), yet my 3.84 was right around top 5-6% (we got exact X/total students class ranks). A 3.67 would have been outside the top 10%. However, the A range on our curve was 25% As for 1L and there was no required A/A- split so most profs would usually cut it 50/50, and 12.5% true As (i.e. not A-s) is actually a higher A range then the targeted median true A range at my current school (which is on a B+ curve).

So as far as transferring it is impossible to gauge odds without knowing class rank, and estimating class rank is impossible just based on the median. OP, maybe your school has charts GPA/Class rank correlation charts somewhere that you could take a look at just to give you a better idea based on historical trends?


Hmm, I'd be shocked if our curve was that wide. The only data I have is a breakdown from ONE of my first semester classes. I've been told it is fairly typical -

A 105-1/2-105 points-------2
A- 94-90-1/2 points---------5
B+ 85-1/2-79-1/2 points-----8
B 75-1/2-56-1/2 points----39
B- 51-47 points-------------9
C+ 44-1/2-43-1/2 points-----2
C 39 points----------------1
C- 36-32-1/2 points---------3
D 28-1/2 points------------1

None of this, however, really matters unless the schools you transfer to know what your curve looks like.


Wow, that’s a brutal curve if that’s typical for all your classes. Roughly 10% As total, and 2% true As. If that’s actually what your curve looks like for all classes then you kicked some ass if you got a 3.67. I mean statistically the worst you could have done is top 10% but realistically you did a LOT better then top 10% (assuming that’s a typical curve).

What sucks about your school not giving you things like the distribution and the historical trends is that you can’t really be sure of much of anything, and I’d bet that Fordham and other schools that get a number of applicants from your t2 have a pretty good idea of roughly where you fall (unfortunately, probably a better idea then what you have).

Anyway, assuming you can keep your grades up after this semester, you should definitely apply to at least apply to Fordham, NYU, and CLS (even if you choose not to go an admission will probably help with negotiating scholarships).

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patrickd139
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Re: NYC area T2 to paradise?

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:09 am

I'm guessing OS has the power to find/replace Fordham with paradise?

Edit: :lol: forgot it was April Fools' Day.

qaz57wsx
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby qaz57wsx » Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:42 pm

I spoke with Admissions at Fordham a few weeks ago, they told me that they will NOT allow transfers to participate in the early OCI program (this is the program that all the Big Law firms recruit from). This was also confirmed via email from a Fordham admissions officer.

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patrickd139
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:54 pm

qaz57wsx wrote:I spoke with Admissions at Fordham a few weeks ago, they told me that they will NOT allow transfers to participate in the early OCI program (this is the program that all the Big Law firms recruit from). This was also confirmed via email from a Fordham admissions officer.

And just like that, I have one fewer school to apply to.

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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby 270910 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:07 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
qaz57wsx wrote:I spoke with Admissions at Fordham a few weeks ago, they told me that they will NOT allow transfers to participate in the early OCI program (this is the program that all the Big Law firms recruit from). This was also confirmed via email from a Fordham admissions officer.

And just like that, I have one fewer school to apply to.


:shock: talk about protectionism

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:18 pm

qaz57wsx wrote:I spoke with Admissions at Fordham a few weeks ago, they told me that they will NOT allow transfers to participate in the early OCI program (this is the program that all the Big Law firms recruit from). This was also confirmed via email from a Fordham admissions officer.


This makes me wonder why anyone in their right mind would transfer into Fordham. 2L OCI is typically the reason to transfer and if you can't participate in that you can pretty much assume you aren't getting biglaw as a transfer.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:25 pm

qaz57wsx wrote:I spoke with Admissions at Fordham a few weeks ago, they told me that they will NOT allow transfers to participate in the early OCI program (this is the program that all the Big Law firms recruit from). This was also confirmed via email from a Fordham admissions officer.


I can get this checked out. I've certainly never heard it. If true, it harms the school, because transfer students still count when employment and salary numbers are tallied. I'm going to ask Dean Brown about it myself. How would such a policy benefit Fordham?

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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:40 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I can get this checked out. I've certainly never heard it. If true, it harms the school, because transfer students still count when employment and salary numbers are tallied. I'm going to ask Dean Brown about it myself. How would such a policy benefit Fordham?


I'm pretty sure they won't do something like this at Columbia, but supposedly there was prettty strong discontent among the 2Ls this year to the effect that transfers (especially from other T1 schools) were "taking their jobs" or at least displacing some people lower down the ladder than they would have been otherwise (since transfers all have stellar grades). Pretty big issue since transfers expand CLS' class size by about 10%.

I don't necessarily agree with that senitment, but I think the idea is if a school gets a reputation for letting in a crapload of transfers who take jobs from the original students, it will make the school less attractive to prospective 1Ls (kind of the way GULC gets a bad rap for letting in over a hundred transfers and "diluting" the class).

Again, I'd probably disagree, but I think that's the idea.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby OperaSoprano » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:15 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I can get this checked out. I've certainly never heard it. If true, it harms the school, because transfer students still count when employment and salary numbers are tallied. I'm going to ask Dean Brown about it myself. How would such a policy benefit Fordham?


I'm pretty sure they won't do something like this at Columbia, but supposedly there was prettty strong discontent among the 2Ls this year to the effect that transfers (especially from other T1 schools) were "taking their jobs" or at least displacing some people lower down the ladder than they would have been otherwise (since transfers all have stellar grades). Pretty big issue since transfers expand CLS' class size by about 10%.

I don't necessarily agree with that senitment, but I think the idea is if a school gets a reputation for letting in a crapload of transfers who take jobs from the original students, it will make the school less attractive to prospective 1Ls (kind of the way GULC gets a bad rap for letting in over a hundred transfers and "diluting" the class).

Again, I'd probably disagree, but I think that's the idea.


I'd follow your logic if we had a bigger transfer class, but Fordham only nets around an additional 15 people to add to a class of 470-480. That's 30 in and 15 out. I know your transfer class is usually 40 or 50. I'm sure a few people leave for Yale, but I'd be shocked if CLS has a ton of exodus. My understanding is that in normal times, there were more than enough big firm jobs to go around, and I hear that some transfers (those from lower ranked schools) struck out. Was there really trouble between the transfers and the natives? Our own class of 2011 had it rough. Your classmates (those I have met) are lovely people, and I hope for all our sakes that this year heralds the turnaround.

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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:52 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I'd follow your logic if we had a bigger transfer class, but Fordham only nets around an additional 15 people to add to a class of 470-480. That's 30 in and 15 out. I know your transfer class is usually 40 or 50. I'm sure a few people leave for Yale, but I'd be shocked if CLS has a ton of exodus. My understanding is that in normal times, there were more than enough big firm jobs to go around, and I hear that some transfers (those from lower ranked schools) struck out. Was there really trouble between the transfers and the natives? Our own class of 2011 had it rough. Your classmates (those I have met) are lovely people, and I hope for all our sakes that this year heralds the turnaround.


I don't think there was "trouble" per se, but some people felt a certain degree of resentment, to the point where it was supposedly brought up in town halls.

I was not paying attention, so I don't really know how the transfers did as a whole. I know two transfers who did very, very well, but they came from UVA and Chicago, so they're not really representative.

I think it's a little silly, but tough times sometimes can bring out less flattering sides for certain people. Hopefully this isn't an issue going forward.

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samiseaborn
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Re: NYC area T2 to Fordham?

Postby samiseaborn » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:00 am

qaz57wsx wrote:I spoke with Admissions at Fordham a few weeks ago, they told me that they will NOT allow transfers to participate in the early OCI program (this is the program that all the Big Law firms recruit from). This was also confirmed via email from a Fordham admissions officer.


Well that's interesting to know, and certainly puts a crimp in my plans. Do you happen to know if they allow law review write-on at least?




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