what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

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09042014
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:03 pm

asdfjkl wrote:I don't mind. My skin is thick. Most of these posters can't even answer my simple question. A friend of mine who has graduated law school said that on his 1st day of law school he looked around and realized that he is surrounded by the assholes that he tried to avoid his hole life. Kinda funny.


LOL we'll see you in shitlaw after we all get curve pwnd.

reverendt
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby reverendt » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:04 pm

OP....if you are independently wealthy or well funded, and are not worried about the cost of education or job prospects, and simply want to go to law school for self betterment, then I think you may be a rare example of a good candidate for a t4 school.
However, DON'T go to the provisionally accredited school. Go to the best T4 you can, so you're 3 years of acquiring knowledge will be spent a best as possible.
DON'T "plan on" transferring. If it happens, great, but it's generally NOT easy. Go to a school that you would be happy graduating from, and if you find yourself with the chance to transfer up, consider it a bonus.
Good luck!

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romothesavior
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:13 pm

asdfjkl wrote:I don't mind. My skin is thick. Most of these posters can't even answer my simple question. A friend of mine who has graduated law school said that on his 1st day of law school he looked around and realized that he is surrounded by the assholes that he tried to avoid his hole life. Kinda funny.


I answered your question in my last post. It is possible. I'm sure with hard work and determination, you will have a <5% chance of transferring from a provisionally accredited law school to a T2. I say go for it! Even if you fail, you can hang your pretty worthless diploma on the wall once you graduate!

Mr. Pablo
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby Mr. Pablo » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:14 pm

I will try my hardest to answer your post with as little snark as possible.

Provisionally Accredited means that the school has not fully met the standards required by the ABA for full accreditation. There are around 200 law schools that do meet these standards, and even then some of them are looked at by many in the legal profession as jokes.
If a school is unable to meet these relatively low standards, then you are probably looking at a school that will not offer you an actual legal education. I'm not talking about prestige or employment prospects, I am talking about basic education. It may very well be that you could be at the top of your class in one of these provisional schools and still have less actual legal knowledge (ability to use it doesn't even enter into the equation) than the bottom-ranking (and passing) student at virtually any fully accredited school.
If you are dead set on going to law school then choose a fully accredited school.

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bceagles182
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby bceagles182 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:24 pm

kittenmittons wrote:
bceagles182 wrote:
asdfjkl wrote:OK, so my undergrad GPA is a 3.0 and I could only muster up a 145 on the LSAT after 4 tries. However, I have been accepted to 3 tier 4 law schools and one of them is only provisionally accredited by the ABA. My hopes (however unlikely they may be) are to do really well as a 1L and to transfer to a tier 2 school. Some of the tier 2 schools I am interested in state that for transfer students they must be from a fully accredited ABA law school. So my question is; If I go to a provisionally ABA accredited law school is it possible (assuming all goes well) to be accepted to one of these tier 2 schools that state transfers must be from a fully accredited law school?

OP, it means that posting a thread about any of these schools will get you lambasted by many of the posters on this site as I'm sure you have already noticed.

Bro you forgot the part about how, despite the flame-y nature of these remarks, we're right.

hth


I chose not to comment on the accuracy of the above claims because I didn't have a reason to refute them. My point was merely that there's no need for people to be so rude about it. If one asks "Is it reasonable to hang your only hope of obtaining employment on your ability to place in the top 5% of your class at a provisionally accredited school?" A simple "no" really would be a perfectly adequate response.

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romothesavior
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:27 pm

Nightrunner wrote:If someone asks "is it reasonable to presume that this egg might hatch and be a pterodactyl?" a simple "no" would suffice; most often, the answer will actually be "are you stupid or something?"


Haha +100

09042014
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby 09042014 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:30 pm

Nightrunner wrote:If someone asks "is it reasonable to presume that this egg might hatch and be a pterodactyl?" a simple "no" would suffice; most often, the answer will actually be "are you stupid or something?"


Your earthy wisdom serves us well.

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A'nold
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby A'nold » Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:08 am

The problem, op, is with the non-accredited school like a previous poster pointed out. Being #1 at those schools, will, I am pretty sure, still not get you any job. I know someone (who is very old) that went to an unacredited law school and when I talk to him all he ever says is "don't go to one of these schools." I've never even asked him about these schools yet he still tells me it like every time I see him.

The only way I could really see this being an o.k. option is if you only ever wanted to start your own firm and you knew you would NEVER move to another state, no matter what. You can't practice in another state from one of these schools.

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onthecusp
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby onthecusp » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:41 pm

To "correctly" answer the OP's question. Being provisionally accredited means that the school has met the requirements for ABA accreditation, and will be up for full ABA approval in it's third year after provisional approval. The University of La Verne was provisionally accredited in 2006, which means that it's up for full accreditation this year. Taken straight from the ABA....


Once a school has obtained provisional approval, it remains in provisional status for at least three years. After a school is granted full approval, it undergoes a full site evaluation in the third year after full approval, and then a full sabbatical site evaluation every seven years. Once a school is granted full ABA-approval, it remains on the list of approved law schools until it is removed by a desicion of the Council or it closes.


I would contact La Verne and ask them how this is going, as three years have passed since their provisional accreditation as of last month. Beginning next year, if they are not full accredited...somethings wrong.

What this means for you....again taken straight from the ABA:

What is the status of students who attend or graduate from a law school that is not ABA approved or is provisionally ABA approved?

Individuals who graduate from provisionally approved school are considered by the ABA to be students attending an ABA-approved law school. It does not matter that the school was not approved when the student first enrolled in the school or that the school loses its approval subsequent to an individual's graduation. Most states follow this policy. However, students should always check individual state requirements concerning their ability to take the bar exam.


Everything I've heard about La Verne has been positive up to this point. Their current posted number of the entering 2009 class are better than both Whittier, Western state, and actually semi competitive with Southwestern.

LSAT 25th-75th: 150-156
GPA 25th-75th: 2.8-3.3

Compared to
Southwestern: 2.8-3.4 / 154-157
Western State: 2.8-3.4 / 148-153
Whittier: 2.66-3.38 / 151-155

Judging by their generous scholarship disbursements, it appears that they are making a serious run at improving their numbers and moving up in the rankings. If you're looking to transfer from here, I would surmise that your chances of transferring into a T2 or T3 school from La Verne are at least on par with the other regional options. If it makes sense for you to go here over the other schools you were accepted, and money isn't a factor....go for it. HOWEVER...I would grill the appropriate people at La Verne as to what the status is of their pending full ABA approval.


*Edit* I spoke with the admissions office regarding this specific issue. The ABA visited the school in February as per their rules and was told the meeting went extremely well. They are anticipating/hoping to be FULLY ABA accredited by the end of the summer.
Last edited by onthecusp on Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jcl2
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby jcl2 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:56 pm

asdfjkl wrote:Are any of you currently in law school? How do you do well on your exams when a lot of your responses are a result of terrible issue spotting? I am simply asking if it is possible to transfer from a provisionally accredited law school to a tier 2. That is it. Pretty simple.


The answer is no, unless this law school becomes fully accredited in it's first year. Fully accredited law schools will not take transfer students from unaccredited or provisionally accredited law schools. Even if you were going to UC Irvine, which by all accounts will be fully accredited as soon as it is eligible and probably tier 1 when it is ranked, you would still not be able to transfer after your first year because it is only provisionally accredited.

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onthecusp
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby onthecusp » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:00 pm

jcl2 wrote:
asdfjkl wrote:Are any of you currently in law school? How do you do well on your exams when a lot of your responses are a result of terrible issue spotting? I am simply asking if it is possible to transfer from a provisionally accredited law school to a tier 2. That is it. Pretty simple.


The answer is no, unless this law school becomes fully accredited in it's first year. Fully accredited law schools will not take transfer students from unaccredited or provisionally accredited law schools. Even if you were going to UC Irvine, which by all accounts will be fully accredited as soon as it is eligible and probably tier 1 when it is ranked, you would still not be able to transfer after your first year because it is only provisionally accredited.


You are incorrect. The following California schools will take transfers from provisionally accredited schools that I know of:

UCLA
USC
Southwestern
Chapman
Loyola
Santa Clara
Pepperdine
UC Berkeley

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rayiner
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby rayiner » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:06 pm

asdfjkl wrote:Are any of you currently in law school? How do you do well on your exams when a lot of your responses are a result of terrible issue spotting? I am simply asking if it is possible to transfer from a provisionally accredited law school to a tier 2. That is it. Pretty simple.


Good issue spotting doesn't just involve spotting the issues blatantly stated in the text, but those that lie just under the surface too.

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unknownscholar
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby unknownscholar » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:26 pm

onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
asdfjkl wrote:Are any of you currently in law school? How do you do well on your exams when a lot of your responses are a result of terrible issue spotting? I am simply asking if it is possible to transfer from a provisionally accredited law school to a tier 2. That is it. Pretty simple.


The answer is no, unless this law school becomes fully accredited in it's first year. Fully accredited law schools will not take transfer students from unaccredited or provisionally accredited law schools. Even if you were going to UC Irvine, which by all accounts will be fully accredited as soon as it is eligible and probably tier 1 when it is ranked, you would still not be able to transfer after your first year because it is only provisionally accredited.


You are incorrect. The following California schools will take transfers from provisionally accredited schools that I know of:

UCLA
USC
Southwestern
Chapman
Loyola
Santa Clara
Pepperdine
UC Berkeley


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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jcl2
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby jcl2 » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:30 pm

onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
asdfjkl wrote:Are any of you currently in law school? How do you do well on your exams when a lot of your responses are a result of terrible issue spotting? I am simply asking if it is possible to transfer from a provisionally accredited law school to a tier 2. That is it. Pretty simple.


The answer is no, unless this law school becomes fully accredited in it's first year. Fully accredited law schools will not take transfer students from unaccredited or provisionally accredited law schools. Even if you were going to UC Irvine, which by all accounts will be fully accredited as soon as it is eligible and probably tier 1 when it is ranked, you would still not be able to transfer after your first year because it is only provisionally accredited.


You are incorrect. The following California schools will take transfers from provisionally accredited schools that I know of:

UCLA
USC
Southwestern
Chapman
Loyola
Santa Clara
Pepperdine
UC Berkeley


Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.

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unknownscholar
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby unknownscholar » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:42 pm

onthecusp wrote:
What this means for you....again taken straight from the ABA:

What is the status of students who attend or graduate from a law school that is not ABA approved or is provisionally ABA approved?

Individuals who graduate from provisionally approved school are considered by the ABA to be students attending an ABA-approved law school. It does not matter that the school was not approved when the student first enrolled in the school or that the school loses its approval subsequent to an individual's graduation. Most states follow this policy. However, students should always check individual state requirements concerning their ability to take the bar exam.


if the above applies for graduates AND those who are currently attending, then aba approved = aba provisionally approved.

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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby Grizz » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:46 pm

A'nold wrote:The only way I could really see this being an o.k. option is if you only ever wanted to start your own firm and you knew you would NEVER move to another state, no matter what. You can't practice in another state from one of these schools.


Still would probably end up in the poorhouse. Do not do this. You will not transfer.

Image

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A'nold
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby A'nold » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:46 pm

rayiner wrote:
asdfjkl wrote:Are any of you currently in law school? How do you do well on your exams when a lot of your responses are a result of terrible issue spotting? I am simply asking if it is possible to transfer from a provisionally accredited law school to a tier 2. That is it. Pretty simple.


Good issue spotting doesn't just involve spotting the issues blatantly stated in the text, but those that lie just under the surface too.


Freaking awesome.

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onthecusp
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby onthecusp » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:54 pm

jcl2 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.

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jcl2
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby jcl2 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:40 am

onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.


I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.

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unknownscholar
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby unknownscholar » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:59 pm

jcl2 wrote:
onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.


I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.


correction. walking outside every morning is a risky situation. But you make the choice and you make something of it.
In everything you do, make the best of your situation. You'll never lose. Ever.

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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby jcl2 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:15 pm

unknownscholar wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.


I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.


correction. walking outside every morning is a risky situation. But you make the choice and you make something of it.
In everything you do, make the best of your situation. You'll never lose. Ever.


That is silly, you should still try to make choices based on reasonable risk assessment. Choosing to walk outside every morning is not at all analogous to choosing to invest significant money and time in attending a law school.

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A'nold
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby A'nold » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:19 pm

jcl2 wrote:
onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.


I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.



Be forewarned, I'm going to be very annoying right now. :wink:

There are some good t4 schools out there, depending on what you want out of life and depending on your circumstances. I am actually one of those people that pretty much feel that once you get outside of the t30 you are looking at very regional schools, some more than others.

If your dream is to work in South Dakota for the rest of your life and you have in-state tuition there, the University of South Dakota is probably a great choice. I'd say most people would be better off going to a University of Wyoming than like Cardozo or like Duquesne with close to a full-ride if that student wants Pitt. over going full sticker to like Villanova.

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jcl2
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby jcl2 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:30 pm

A'nold wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
Are you sure about that? I didn't check all of the schools you mentioned, but USC and UCLA just say ABA approved, which I would assume means fully accredited. Maybe not though.


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.


I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.



Be forewarned, I'm going to be very annoying right now. :wink:

There are some good t4 schools out there, depending on what you want out of life and depending on your circumstances. I am actually one of those people that pretty much feel that once you get outside of the t30 you are looking at very regional schools, some more than others.

If your dream is to work in South Dakota for the rest of your life and you have in-state tuition there, the University of South Dakota is probably a great choice. I'd say most people would be better off going to a University of Wyoming than like Cardozo or like Duquesne with close to a full-ride if that student wants Pitt. over going full sticker to like Villanova.


I agree completely. I have actually said pretty much the same thing before. I suppose I should have said the majority of T4s. There are a few that can make sense depending on someones goals. North Dakota and South Dakota are perfect examples, I think Wyoming is T3 though isn't it? There are quite a few T3s that fit in this category, mostly public schools in more rural states, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, etc.

I think you made a very good choice attending the school you are at over your higher ranked options, I would have done the same if choosing between those options, since I think our situations and geographic preferences are somewhat similar.

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A'nold
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby A'nold » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:46 pm

A'nold wrote:
jcl2 wrote:
onthecusp wrote:
jcl2 wrote:


According to the ABA, all Provisionally ABA schools are considered fully ABA accredited for all intents and purposes, the same way a school placed on "ABA Probation" would also be treated as fully ABA approved. This means the education received from provisionally accredited schools is the same as that from a fully approved school. To the ABA, there is no difference.


I stand corrected then. I still think going to a provisionally approved school is a risky proposition, though I guess going to any T4 is a risky proposition.



Be forewarned, I'm going to be very annoying right now. :wink:

There are some good t4 schools out there, depending on what you want out of life and depending on your circumstances. I am actually one of those people that pretty much feel that once you get outside of the t30 you are looking at very regional schools, some more than others.

If your dream is to work in South Dakota for the rest of your life and you have in-state tuition there, the University of South Dakota is probably a great choice. I'd say most people would be better off going to a University of Wyoming than like Cardozo or like Duquesne with close to a full-ride if that student wants Pitt. over going full sticker to like Villanova.


I agree completely. I have actually said pretty much the same thing before. I suppose I should have said the majority of T4s. There are a few that can make sense depending on someones goals. North Dakota and South Dakota are perfect examples, I think Wyoming is T3 though isn't it? There are quite a few T3s that fit in this category, mostly public schools in more rural states, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, etc.

I think you made a very good choice attending the school you are at over your higher ranked options, I would have done the same if choosing between those options, since I think our situations and geographic preferences are somewhat similar.


Haha, yeah, I was pretty sure you've said this before, I just wanted to let op know that if he/she were choosing b/w like LaVerne and like the University of South Dakota, the latter might not be the worst option.

Actually, now that I think about it, it might have sounded like I was being defensive. I am actually about 50/50 on the transfer front right now and may choose to stay, depending on my options and situation at the end of this semester and if I get into GULC EA or not. Point is, I see tons of bad things about my school and even though there are good things, I think the bad things can overpower the good. It's all relative. I was kind of just making the distinction that t3's and t4's aren't necessarily that different, give or take the REALLY bad t4's. Those schools really do deserve a t4 ranking and t3 does mean something compared to them. We pretty much all know the kind of t4's I'm talking about here.

Anyway, I might be sending a transfer app. out towards your new school. Congrats on your acceptance. :)

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unknownscholar
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Re: what exactly does provisionally accredited by the ABA mean?

Postby unknownscholar » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:48 pm

jcl2 wrote:
That is silly, you should still try to make choices based on reasonable risk assessment. Choosing to walk outside every morning is not at all analogous to choosing to invest significant money and time in attending a law school.


Sorry. I don't make my choices based on probability. I make my choices based on possibility. In that vein, these two scenarios are quite analagous. I cannot, in good conscience, presume that folks who decide to go to a T4 don't have what it takes to be successful in their goals. because it's their goals. I would prefer not to dumb down someone's legal career to the statistics of the people who attended the school before him. I like to allow people to have some agency in their future. that's just me though, apparently. You've got me at a disadvantage here.




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