Transferring into the t14, OCI, career prospects.. [UPDATED] Forum

[roadkilllaw]

I think the moral of the story is that the school you transfer from is taken into great considation by employers. So, if you transfer from a T1 school to a higher school there isn't as much risk as if you transfer from T2,3,4. Still this really sucks. In the long term, you will do well b/c your diploma will be from a great school and you'll have great grades. Just be patient and start NETWORKING. Someone somwhere will definitely want you in Biglaw if you look hard enough with your new creds.

Networking is the best tool you (or anyone else) has. Go to conferences, bar association meetings and anywhere else that you can be in direct contact with lawyers/firms. You'll be surprised how well it works. In UG, i was thinking about getting into biotech with my science degree and went to a few conferences to network. I had even got business cards with my name, email, phone # and year at school made (rly cheaply through vistaprint.com) and gave them out to people I met. I actually got emails for internships and job opportunities available at their companies- which I found pretty surprising.
Moral of the Story: NETWORKING WORKS!

[t14underground]

Do you think you would have done better if you had applied to the lower NLJ250 firms and regional markets exclusively? I have no dreams of getting the highest prestige firms, just the money that comes with it for paying down my debt and future career options, if I can make it.

Otherwise it's to the gov. for me, which wouldn't be a bad thing considering that was my goal coming into ls.

I really question what would have happened in that situation. I mean 25 out of my 30 bids where lower NLJ250 firms and/or lower v100 firms. So I wonder if I really would have ended up with only 6 OCI interviews had I bid exclusively on lower NLJ250 firms. I think the biggest problem was that roughly a 1/3 of the employers that typically come to OCI decided to cut their summer class altogether and not show up to OCI. Then there is this V30 range firms that came to OCI, and has always typically only taken the top students, and no one bid on those firms. Then there were the really selective not top of the vault chart firms that showed up, such as Irell, that no one bid on. E.g. I recall people writing themselves in for Kirkland and Skadden during OCI because they had something like 3 interviewers here with maybe 6 interviews each out of their 20 slots full. So the firms at lower parts of the NLJ250 where completely booked and impossible to get interviews with because everyone was trying to interview with exclusively those firms.

However, if you have substantial ties to a secondary market (and I mean secondary - such as Colorado, Ohio, etc.) then you might be in a better place then I was. I really only have ties to one of NYC/Chicago/LA since I grew up there and I left my old school. The firms in really secondary markets, such as Colorado, seemed to have a lot of open spots during OCI, but you really stand no shot at those firms unless you have serious ties there.

[t14underground]

I think the moral of the story is that the school you transfer from is taken into great considation by employers. So, if you transfer from a T1 school to a higher school there isn't as much risk as if you transfer from T2,3,4. Still this really sucks. In the long term, you will do well b/c your diploma will be from a great school and you'll have great grades. Just be patient and start NETWORKING. Someone somwhere will definitely want you in Biglaw if you look hard enough with your new creds.

Networking is the best tool you (or anyone else) has. Go to conferences, bar association meetings and anywhere else that you can be in direct contact with lawyers/firms. You'll be surprised how well it works. In UG, i was thinking about getting into biotech with my science degree and went to a few conferences to network. I had even got business cards with my name, email, phone # and year at school made (rly cheaply through vistaprint.com) and gave them out to people I met. I actually got emails for internships and job opportunities available at their companies- which I found pretty surprising.
Moral of the Story: NETWORKING WORKS!

Yeah, the kid I was talking to that was networking in this state said that networking works really well (at least in terms of getting that initial screening interview -- he's still looking for something this summer). He said he even got a screening interview with the most selective firm in the state via sending an email to an alum and name dropping along with his cover letter and resume to the hiring coordinator. The hardest thing for me is trying to go to these "local" bar events when I am far from the state I ultimately want to practice in. I guess that's where the "go to law school where you want to work" thing comes in (which I didn't since I assumed the "national" placement at my school would allow me to return back home when I graduate).

[t14underground]

Do you think you would have done better if you had applied to the lower NLJ250 firms and regional markets exclusively? I have no dreams of getting the highest prestige firms, just the money that comes with it for paying down my debt and future career options, if I can make it.

Otherwise it's to the gov. for me, which wouldn't be a bad thing considering that was my goal coming into ls.

I plan to approach OCI by targeting the lower NLJ250 firms and hoping to secure as many callbacks as possible. Despite finishing in the top 10-15%, I simply don't trust my school's placement statistics (then again, who would trust a TTT).

Why did you even go to Northwestern if you think it's a TTT? ... I'd be surprised if there are many firms that you can't get being top 10% at NU. In your case, bidding at the top firms may put you in a better position. My break down of everything I got out of the interviewers when I asked what they were looking for is that a lot of the firms that really, really care about grades (i.e. most of the top of the vault chart firms) is that they now really, really, really care about grades and grades are still their primary screening device. Whereas, firms lower on the chart got a lot more selective in terms of personality and "fit" with the firm (but they still care just as much about grades as they did before). Then there are the firms that just never cared about grades as long as you attended XYZ t14 law school you would have a shot if your personality met what they were looking for.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Don't have time to read the entire thread, my appologies, but some thoughts:

It is clear that the school you transferred in from matters, a lot, in the transfer process. If, for example, OP's "T10" is Northwestern, and his T3 is John Marshall, and he focused on the Chicago market, the firms at OCI saw JOHN MARSHALL and laughed. It sucks, it's incredibly unfair, but it's reality.

That said, I went Wisconsin->Chicago, and still only ended up with one offer at OCI. My original school and my new school are both respected in the only market I targetted, too--transfers just didn't do well, this year..

Not working 1L summer is suicide for anyone. No offense op, but your decision to take classes was foolish. There is a lot of information out there about how bad that is. You should have RAed, at least.

However, even at Chicago, a few transfers ended up empty-handed, and a few ended up with jobs they would have gotten from their original school. You need to keep in mind--especially going from a T3 to a T10, the name of your school doesn't stop mattering after 2L OCI, or even after you have a job or two under your belt (and you will get something, particularly because your new grades are so good).

In all, law school is a gamble. You're making it sound like the 50/50 odds transfer students faced at your new school are particularly bad: keep in mind, those odds are about the same as the "natives" had, this year. The chances that you would have gotten anything out of your T3, given that you struck out at the new school, are fairly low, unless you would have interviewed with completely different firms and so on had you not transferred.

All in all, I would say that transferring, when you can make a good jump (T25-->GULC probably not worth it, T1-->T6/10 a little harder decision but probably worth it, T3-->T10 is a no brainer), is worth it. Not working 1L summer is foolish for anyone. Not attempting to get on to at least a secondary journal at the new school is foolish.

[stinger35]

Don't have time to read the entire thread, my appologies, but some thoughts:

It is clear that the school you transferred in from matters, a lot, in the transfer process. If, for example, OP's "T10" is Northwestern, and his T3 is John Marshall, and he focused on the Chicago market, the firms at OCI saw JOHN MARSHALL and laughed. It sucks, it's incredibly unfair, but it's reality.

That said, I went Wisconsin->Chicago, and still only ended up with one offer at OCI. My original school and my new school are both respected in the only market I targetted, too--transfers just didn't do well, this year..

Not working 1L summer is suicide for anyone. No offense op, but your decision to take classes was foolish. There is a lot of information out there about how bad that is. You should have RAed, at least.

However, even at Chicago, a few transfers ended up empty-handed, and a few ended up with jobs they would have gotten from their original school. You need to keep in mind--especially going from a T3 to a T10, the name of your school doesn't stop mattering after 2L OCI, or even after you have a job or two under your belt (and you will get something, particularly because your new grades are so good).

In all, law school is a gamble. You're making it sound like the 50/50 odds transfer students faced at your new school are particularly bad: keep in mind, those odds are about the same as the "natives" had, this year. The chances that you would have gotten anything out of your T3, given that you struck out at the new school, are fairly low, unless you would have interviewed with completely different firms and so on had you not transferred.

All in all, I would say that transferring, when you can make a good jump (T25-->GULC probably not worth it, T1-->T6/10 a little harder decision but probably worth it, T3-->T10 is a no brainer), is worth it. Not working 1L summer is foolish for anyone. Not attempting to get on to at least a secondary journal at the new school is foolish.

Not to nitpick, but isn't John Marshall a perennial t4?

[t14underground]

Don't have time to read the entire thread, my appologies, but some thoughts:

It is clear that the school you transferred in from matters, a lot, in the transfer process. If, for example, OP's "T10" is Northwestern, and his T3 is John Marshall, and he focused on the Chicago market, the firms at OCI saw JOHN MARSHALL and laughed. It sucks, it's incredibly unfair, but it's reality.

That said, I went Wisconsin->Chicago, and still only ended up with one offer at OCI. My original school and my new school are both respected in the only market I targetted, too--transfers just didn't do well, this year..

Not working 1L summer is suicide for anyone. No offense op, but your decision to take classes was foolish. There is a lot of information out there about how bad that is. You should have RAed, at least.

However, even at Chicago, a few transfers ended up empty-handed, and a few ended up with jobs they would have gotten from their original school. You need to keep in mind--especially going from a T3 to a T10, the name of your school doesn't stop mattering after 2L OCI, or even after you have a job or two under your belt (and you will get something, particularly because your new grades are so good).

In all, law school is a gamble. You're making it sound like the 50/50 odds transfer students faced at your new school are particularly bad: keep in mind, those odds are about the same as the "natives" had, this year. The chances that you would have gotten anything out of your T3, given that you struck out at the new school, are fairly low, unless you would have interviewed with completely different firms and so on had you not transferred.

All in all, I would say that transferring, when you can make a good jump (T25-->GULC probably not worth it, T1-->T6/10 a little harder decision but probably worth it, T3-->T10 is a no brainer), is worth it. Not working 1L summer is foolish for anyone. Not attempting to get on to at least a secondary journal at the new school is foolish.

Hmm. While I don't disagree with anything you said, would your opinion on the transferring process be the same had you not gotten that 1 offer? ... I knew you posted something about this before so I did a search of your username and came up with this:

I completely struck out at firms that did OCI at my original school as well as my new school. I also struck out with my mailings to firms that do OCI at my original school but not my new school, presumably because they don't buy my pitch that I wouldn't mind going back to their market. I can't blame them too much--they're right--but I would sure as hell rather go back to that market as opposed to the jobless shitstorm that I've put myself in to now.

Transferring: Absolutely the worst decision of my life. T40, top 1% to a T6, wrote on to a freaking secondary journal at the T6 even, tripple the debt, two goddamned callbacks. If one of the callbacks works out, great, but at this point, I am surveying several of the higher bridges in the area.

I'm not the world's best interviewer, but I'm not awful, either.

PK--that is assuming things ever turn up for the CO 2011. It is quite possible that if things improve in the biglaw hiring market, it will be too late to help the CO 2011; we'll just end up as a discarded class. Obviously, I'm going to be doing everything I can to get a clerkship--that was already my plan, and now it is even more important since I'm going to need to reset the hiring clock.

If transferring loses me even one year of working at biglaw, I'm looking at a $260,000 mistake (~$120k salary(assuming I get some kind of job after graduation), 120k extra debt, $24k from the 2L summer) --and that ISN'T including interest on the extra loans. Hell, even if it just loses me one summer, transferring will have cost me $150,000, again, without interest on the extra loan money. I'm having a very, very difficult time seeing the "silver lining" that people keep preaching, particularly because I honestly don't believe that the biglaw market is going to recover quickly enough to ever correct for the CO 2011.

I'm going to have a much fancier piece of paper that is going to increase my debt by three times, for *inferior* job prospects, at least in the short term. We all know that the short term largely dominates the long term in this process.

[ToTransferOrNot]

I figured my old posts would come up.


I would have had a much more difficult time doing a rational analysis. Also, you do need to keep in mind--had I not transferred, I would have targetted a completely different legal market. That said, my personal opinion would have changed, but I don't think the cold, hard analysis would have changed.

Also, keep in mind: There is a pretty big difference between going from #2 at Wisconsin--where I probably would have gotten a decent firm job in Milwaukee/Madison--transferring to Chicago, and ending up with nothing (No Wisconsin job because they assume I'm not actually interested in Wisconsin, no Chicago job because of transferitis); and your situation. You were in a T3 in a large market--your chances, even from the top of the class, were really, REALLY sketchy this year, even if you stayed at your original school. Probably sketchier than mine were. Not to mention, I gave up things like "living in the city that I grew up in, where all of my friends were, with free food from the family, and essentially a full ride" by leaving--I think the economics were different, for me.

None of this is to say that the situation you find yourself in doesn't suck. It really does. However, it is illustrative of the problems with anecdotal evidence.

[t14underground]

I figured my old posts would come up.


I would have had a much more difficult time doing a rational analysis. Also, you do need to keep in mind--had I not transferred, I would have targetted a completely different legal market. That said, my personal opinion would have changed, but I don't think the cold, hard analysis would have changed.

Also, keep in mind: There is a pretty big difference between going from #2 at Wisconsin--where I probably would have gotten a decent firm job in Milwaukee/Madison--transferring to Chicago, and ending up with nothing (No Wisconsin job because they assume I'm not actually interested in Wisconsin, no Chicago job because of transferitis); and your situation. You were in a T3 in a large market--your chances, even from the top of the class, were really, REALLY sketchy this year, even if you stayed at your original school. Probably sketchier than mine were. Not to mention, I gave up things like "living in the city that I grew up in, where all of my friends were, with free food from the family, and essentially a full ride" by leaving--I think the economics were different, for me.

None of this is to say that the situation you find yourself in doesn't suck. It really does. However, it is illustrative of the problems with anecdotal evidence.

[EDIT] I think I might have had a shot at firms from that state had I not left (by leaving I cut off any ties I had with the state). In fact, top students from my old school got offers in that state with large firms there. To be honest, I think we are pretty much in very similar situations. We both moved from a smaller secondary market (where the school we attended was the best in the state) to aiming for a primary market, we both had a very small number of callbacks, the difference is that you ended up with an offer from one of the firms, whereas, I got rejection letters. However, I left because I wanted to move back home to NYC/LA/Chicago and thought my odds would be better by being at a "national" school. I guessed wrong.

[ToTransferOrNot]

I'm confused, I thought your T3 was in the same market as your T10?

-redacted the rest to avoid outing-

[t14underground]

^ Good point, and edited.

To answer your question- no my t3 from last year is not in the same market as my t10. When times were good we did place some people in the same major market, but not so much anymore.

I'm not sure if it is a smaller legal market than Wisconsin (I didn't even know Wisconsin had much of a large firm legal market).

[apper123]

Do you think you would have done better if you had applied to the lower NLJ250 firms and regional markets exclusively? I have no dreams of getting the highest prestige firms, just the money that comes with it for paying down my debt and future career options, if I can make it.

Otherwise it's to the gov. for me, which wouldn't be a bad thing considering that was my goal coming into ls.

(then again, who would trust a TTT).

This was funny at first, (well, I assume it was to someone), but now it's just obnoxious.

[kevinnutla]

^ Good point, and edited.

To answer your question- no my t3 from last year is not in the same market as my t10. When times were good we did place some people in the same major market, but not so much anymore.

I'm not sure if it is a smaller legal market than Wisconsin (I didn't even know Wisconsin had much of a large firm legal market).

Not to sound like a dick, but why are you so worried about being outed? I mean with this thread, who really cares what school you go to? I'm not going to do it, but I am about 90% what school you go to anyways. Just kind of wondering what all the secrecy is about. If you want to give people real information that they can use, why not let them have their second thoughts about transferring to YOUR school. Transferornot doesn't seem to worried about it, nor am I.

[ToTransferOrNot]

In fairness, I have taken some amount of flak from how far outed I am (specifically, I do talk about grades occasionally around here, and those types of conversations do tend to get back to my classmates--my identity wouldn't be much more obvious if I changed my screen name to [My Real Name]).

The thing is, I never say anything on here that is possibly career-damaging. I couldn't care less if some of my classmates decide they don't like me much because of what I post here, and I have a really thick skin. I can't blame other people for not wanting to expose themselves in the same way, though.

[t14underground]

^ Good point, and edited.

To answer your question- no my t3 from last year is not in the same market as my t10. When times were good we did place some people in the same major market, but not so much anymore.

I'm not sure if it is a smaller legal market than Wisconsin (I didn't even know Wisconsin had much of a large firm legal market).

Not to sound like a dick, but why are you so worried about being outed? I mean with this thread, who really cares what school you go to? I'm not going to do it, but I am about 90% what school you go to anyways. Just kind of wondering what all the secrecy is about. If you want to give people real information that they can use, why not let them have their second thoughts about transferring to YOUR school. Transferornot doesn't seem to worried about it, nor am I.

I highly doubt the results at my school for transfers are any different than at any other t14 (except GULC, which is worse). I'm actually pretty sure at least a handful of people at my school can probably guess who I am if they read this (more specifically, my unemployed 2L classmates that I sit around and bitch about employment with). However, I don't want employers to know who I am, and I definitely don't want the firm that I am working at this summer to know that I am talking smack about them and their $37K /year (can you see how this could lead to a bad summer experience? or why a firm might not want to hire me in the future because I am known to talk badly about law firms or my school? or possibly piss off alumni at a firm that I apply to next year?).

Thanks for the edit ToTransferOrNot.

[A'nold]

Man this is a good freaking thread. Seriously, very informative and kind of like a documentary of "life as a top transfer to a great school that is sucking it up for me."

I also liked the old posts you brought up from totransferornot b/c we also get to see how scary it is when you think you made the biggest mistake of your life by transferring.

TotransferOrNot: if you hadn't gotten that SA job, would it have been the worst decision of your life? Would being top 1% at Wisconsin to biglaw be better long term or would UC to no biglaw but claw your way up be better?

[ToTransferOrNot]

Man this is a good freaking thread. Seriously, very informative and kind of like a documentary of "life as a top transfer to a great school that is sucking it up for me."

I also liked the old posts you brought up from totransferornot b/c we also get to see how scary it is when you think you made the biggest mistake of your life by transferring.

TotransferOrNot: if you hadn't gotten that SA job, would it have been the worst decision of your life? Would being top 1% at Wisconsin to biglaw be better long term or would UC to no biglaw but claw your way up be better?

With the benefit of hindsight, I'm not completely sure that I would have gotten a biglaw SA this year if I was still at Wisconsin. Several of my classmates that were similarly ranked didn't (i.e., I know one top 2% and 1 top 3% who struck out).

Aside from that, the question is tough to answer. Presuming that everything else went exactly the same--i.e., I got the same grades and so on (not a likely occurance--had I struck out at OCI, it is quite possible that I would have crashed really hard and done terribly re: grades), I have a much better chance at clerking here (I'm somewhere at top of the class at Chicago after 1 quarter's worth of grades--we don't rank here, but I have 'highest honors' GPA, and they only give it out once every few years, so you draw certain assumptions), though we'll see whether that survives this hellish quarter (I'm expecting a significant grade drop). OTOH, if I hadn't gotten an SA, perhaps I would have worked harder this quarter out of abject terror--who knows.

Would it have been the worst decision in my life? Probably not--crown for that probably goes to not studying at all for the LSAT--but 200k in debt at Chicago v. ~50k at Wisconsin would have been... rough.

[chadwick218]

Why did you even go to Northwestern if you think it's a TTT?

b/c I decided not to apply until march, had limited opportunities, refused to wait another year, opted for chicago so that my wife would have the best opportunity to continue employment (although she never ended up moving here), divorced my wife, and here I am at midnight on this thread dreaming about transfering.

[chadwick218]

In your case, bidding at the top firms may put you in a better position. My break down of everything I got out of the interviewers when I asked what they were looking for is that a lot of the firms that really, really care about grades (i.e. most of the top of the vault chart firms) is that they now really, really, really care about grades and grades are still their primary screening device. Whereas, firms lower on the chart got a lot more selective in terms of personality and "fit" with the firm (but they still care just as much about grades as they did before). Then there are the firms that just never cared about grades as long as you attended XYZ t14 law school you would have a shot if your personality met what they were looking for.

You actually have a very good point here and I am still trying to gain more perspective on the bidding process. I have hear opinions on the polar ends of this debate as it pertains to OCI strategy. Despite having a job lined up for the summer, I am going into OCI with the expectation that there will be no job at the other end of the rainbow (just rain).

[chadwick218]

With the benefit of hindsight, I'm not completely sure that I would have gotten a biglaw SA this year if I was still at Wisconsin. Several of my classmates that were similarly ranked didn't (i.e., I know one top 2% and 1 top 3% who struck out).

I think that this is very much on point. OP, I think that outside of the costs, you are in a much more favorable position than you would be in had you not transfered (especially as you take a more long-term perspective).

[A'nold]

Why did you even go to Northwestern if you think it's a TTT?

b/c I decided not to apply until march, had limited opportunities, refused to wait another year, opted for chicago so that my wife would have the best opportunity to continue employment (although she never ended up moving here), divorced my wife, and here I am at midnight on this thread dreaming about transfering.

It sucks when you make decisions b/c of a spouse and you end up getting screwed. Sorry man.

[TransferGuy33]

I normally just lurk on forums like these, but with all the bad mouthing of a Transfer's prospects (and all the good advice that I got from forums like these about how to succeed at transferring) I feel like I should let everyone know that not all transfers have a tough time.

I transferred from a T2 to a T14 school and ended up with 24 interviews, 12 V100 Callbacks, 2 offers (cancelled the rest). I was accepted to transfer to several schools and all of them were VERY explicit in their acceptance/transfer materials about how OCI would work. Some schools put you in the same boat as everyone, others saved spots for transfers, others you just got what was left (meaning you only got a space if other rising 2Ls ditched their interviews or not enough people wanted a certain firm). The school I chose gave me the best opportunity to get a lot of interviews and get a job. I'm not saying anything about other people's choice of transfer school, but I would definitely advise anyone who is considering transferring for the main purpose of better job opportunities to talk to any school that accepts them before choosing that school.

Now, to say a bit more why I think transferring did me well....

1) I received about twice as many interviews as people with similar grades at my old T2
2) About half of my interviews (and half my callbacks) were with firms that did not interview at my T2. (Most of my callbacks were with V50 firms)
3) The offer I ended up accepting was with a firm that did not interview at my T2.

I would say that I was treated by interviewers as if I was top 1/3 to top 1/4 of the T14 I transferred to. Except for one V5 interview (way out of my league), I never got the feeling that the interviewer thought I wasn't good/smart enough for their firm.

There are a lot of things said in this thread, so I can't respond to all of it, but I'm happy to respond to any non-identifying questions about transferring and job prospects. I think transferring REALLY helped my job prospects, if for no other reason than the sheer number of interviews that my school set up for me gave me the confidence that I would get an offer, whereas I was terrified going in knowing that any major firm couldn't be planning on taking more than 1 student from my T2.

Furthermore, and this is just a hypothesis, I got the feeling that in a bad economy, firms that hired 0-1 person from T2's wouldn't offend any T2s by not hiring anyone, whereas a significant drop in hiring from a T14, would anger the school (transfer student or not) against that firm. From what I've experienced and hear, this seems to be playing out (though I admit there may be different reasons for the result).

[t14underground]

^ Yeah, OCI worked out pretty well for around half of the transfer class here too. Outside of OCI it is really tough to even get screening interviews though because so many firms weren't hiring interviewing outside of OCI. If I had gotten 24 OCI interviews I think I probably would have done a lot better as well (as oppose to the 6 I got with firms I stood a chance at). I mean you had more callbacks then I had OCI interviews, which is a little bothersome.

FWIW, our CSO material was very explicit about the whole OCI process and explicitly said to expect 20-22 interviews. I think the issue was that they didn't edit it to account for the economy and lack of employers this year. It seemed like people who went against CSO's advice of targeting only 1 market did better in terms of getting OCI interviews. Did you do this?

EDIT- What else can you tell us? Are you an URM or LBGT? Where did you work your first summer (was it a firm)? Did you have prior full time work experience before going to law school? Was the t2 you transferred from regionally strong at the school you transferred to? What were your GPA & class rank at your t2? Did you get onto a journal, and if so, which one? What school did you transfer to? -- your other post seems to suggest you transferred to Columbia (a school that did pretty well this year despite the economy)...

[A'nold]

Sorry guys but you've just gotta give us potential transfers more to go on, please for the sake of our futures *cue dramatic music*. That is such a huge gaping difference in experiences. One school = 22 callbacks w/ multiple offers and another = 6 w/ no offer.

Can't you at least tell us what schools (to the new transfer contributor above) you thought seemed to make it difficult for transfers?

[stinger35]

Sorry guys but you've just gotta give us potential transfers more to go on, please for the sake of our futures *cue dramatic music*. That is such a huge gaping difference in experiences. One school = 22 callbacks w/ multiple offers and another = 6 w/ no offer.

Can't you at least tell us what schools (to the new transfer contributor above) you thought seemed to make it difficult for transfers?

I have to agree somewhat. While I certainly appreciate the advice (a ton), and I completely understand the need for anonymity (for all of the reasons listed, and others), it would help so much to know what school you guys attend. I mean, is there somone really trying to figure out who each of you are at each school? Still, I understand the apprehension and am thankful for any advice I get. The extreme divide between the advice though is hard to reconcile.