Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

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GPA and Law Review vs. Higher ranked school

High GPA and Law Review at T30
97
51%
Transfer to T14
94
49%
 
Total votes: 191

solidsnake
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby solidsnake » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:32 pm

For a top 10% Fordham student, the marginal gain in access at ccn is too small to justify the costs, imo. Here's why: if you are gunning for NYC Biglaw, then as a transfer to CCN with no 2L grades at OCI, V20 will most likely than not shut you out. Below that, however, you probably have a better chance. But since those same v50ish firms already participate at Fordham's OCI, there is really no point in transferring up (i.e., paying the tuition premium for interview access) as there is no new access gained by the transfer, only costs incurred (including losing LR and GPA). Conversely, if you were at a t30 in a flyover state where none of the v100 even bothers to show up, then, yeah, a transfer is worth it, since you more or less wouldn't have any nyc biglaw access if you didn't transfer. All this assumes of course that you are willing to pay the costs (e.g., tuition, loss of rank, etc) to get that OCI access.

If you are gunning for something else (PI, academia, prestige, clerkships, biglaw in another market, or if accepted to HYS), then the above doesn't apply.

Bankhead
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby Bankhead » Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:52 pm

solidsnake wrote:For a top 10% Fordham student, the marginal gain in access at ccn is too small to justify the costs, imo. Here's why: if you are gunning for NYC Biglaw, then as a transfer to CCN with no 2L grades at OCI, V20 will most likely than not shut you out. Below that, however, you probably have a better chance. But since those same v50ish firms already participate at Fordham's OCI, there is really no point in transferring up (i.e., paying the tuition premium for interview access) as there is no new access gained by the transfer, only costs incurred (including losing LR and GPA). Conversely, if you were at a t30 in a flyover state where none of the v100 even bothers to show up, then, yeah, a transfer is worth it, since you more or less wouldn't have any nyc biglaw access if you didn't transfer. All this assumes of course that you are willing to pay the costs (e.g., tuition, loss of rank, etc) to get that OCI access.

If you are gunning for something else (PI, academia, prestige, clerkships, biglaw in another market, or if accepted to HYS), then the above doesn't apply.


+1Fordham top 10% looks stronger than Columbia at median (which is what you would essentially be looked at as being a transfer).

imchuckbass58
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:00 pm

solidsnake wrote:If you are gunning for NYC Biglaw, then as a transfer to CCN with no 2L grades at OCI, V20 will most likely shut you out.


I'm not sure if I agree with this. I think people underestimate how strongly Fordham places in New York. To take your V20 example, here are the number of Fordham grads who are associates at V20 firms (i.e., excluding partners and counsel).

Cravath - 16
DPW - 22
S&C - 6
Skadden - 34
Weil - unknown (they don't allow search by school)
Simpson Thacher - 23
Cleary - 7
K&E - 8
Debevoise - 16
Paul Weiss - 12
Gibson Dunn - 14
Sidley - 32
Latham - 9
Jones Day - 26
White & Case - 31
Arnold & Porter - 5
WilmerHale - 7

That's 268 total (not counting weil which I'm sure has tons of fordham associates). Assuming an average associate tenure of 4 years, they're taking in 65 kids per year on average, which is 15% of a class of 400 (FT and PT). Assume another 5% are doing something else but could have gotten V20 (academia, gov't, other firms).

That leaves you with 20% of class each year that can get a V20 offer. Now maybe ITE it's more like 10% or 15%, but I would disagree that V20 would most likely shut out OP, who is top 10% at Fordham. There's always a chance he may not get in, but I'd say his odds are better than not whether he stays put or transfers (I don't think transferring can hurt his chances).

imchuckbass58
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:02 pm

Bankhead wrote:+1Fordham top 10% looks stronger than Columbia at median (which is what you would essentially be looked at as being a transfer).


Really? Again I disagree. I think even as a transfer he will be viewed as Fordham top 10%.

When people say "oh, they'll view you as median at your new school" that's usually in a situation where the firms don't recruit at the old school and thus have no frame of reference for what their hiring cutoffs should be. Virtually every V20 firm (minus W&C, Covington and WLRK) recruits at Fordham, so I don't think this is an issue. They know how to read fordham grades.

solidsnake
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby solidsnake » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:04 pm

Those stats are worthless unless each associate is class of '09. ITE is a new ballgame.

imchuckbass58
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby imchuckbass58 » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:06 pm

solidsnake wrote:Those stats are worthless unless each associate is class of '09. ITE is a new ballgame.


I realize hiring is way down, but you can more than halve the percentage getting jobs, and the stats would suggest OP is still golden. Hiring is down, but I'm not sure it's down 75%.

The drop at Columbia was roughly 80% biglaw --> 66% biglaw (i.e., a hit of less than 25% on a percentage or percentage point basis) for C/O 2011 (i.e., bottom of the market). It might be more pronounced at Fordham, but three times more pronounced for OP, who is C/O 2012? I'm skeptical.

Anyways, I don't want to belabor the point and I don't think anyone knows for sure, but I would respectfully disagree with your assessment.

solidsnake
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby solidsnake » Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:14 pm

Empiricals don't lie. Comb through those stats and see how many are class of 09 fordham grads. Not many..

OP's chances at V20 are only going to be marginally improved by the ccn transfer, and the v50-100 firms he is good at will just as readily recruit him from Fordham. So why pay the huge costs of transferring (like losing LR)?

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:59 pm

solidsnake wrote:For a top 10% Fordham student, the marginal gain in access at ccn is too small to justify the costs, imo. Here's why: if you are gunning for NYC Biglaw, then as a transfer to CCN with no 2L grades at OCI, V20 will most likely than not shut you out. Below that, however, you probably have a better chance. But since those same v50ish firms already participate at Fordham's OCI, there is really no point in transferring up (i.e., paying the tuition premium for interview access) as there is no new access gained by the transfer, only costs incurred (including losing LR and GPA). Conversely, if you were at a t30 in a flyover state where none of the v100 even bothers to show up, then, yeah, a transfer is worth it, since you more or less wouldn't have any nyc biglaw access if you didn't transfer. All this assumes of course that you are willing to pay the costs (e.g., tuition, loss of rank, etc) to get that OCI access.

If you are gunning for something else (PI, academia, prestige, clerkships, biglaw in another market, or if accepted to HYS), then the above doesn't apply.


what do you mean that I won't have my grades at OCI? Can't I bring my 1L transcript from Fordham? They'll see my top grades from there...plus I'll have a columbia diploma....don't see how it would be worse really. Plus I have some insider info that FOrdham took a HUGE hit at last year's OCI. As in, many on LR and in top 10% didn't get biglaw :shock:


comments....

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:43 pm

ZXCVBNM wrote:
solidsnake wrote:For a top 10% Fordham student, the marginal gain in access at ccn is too small to justify the costs, imo. Here's why: if you are gunning for NYC Biglaw, then as a transfer to CCN with no 2L grades at OCI, V20 will most likely than not shut you out. Below that, however, you probably have a better chance. But since those same v50ish firms already participate at Fordham's OCI, there is really no point in transferring up (i.e., paying the tuition premium for interview access) as there is no new access gained by the transfer, only costs incurred (including losing LR and GPA). Conversely, if you were at a t30 in a flyover state where none of the v100 even bothers to show up, then, yeah, a transfer is worth it, since you more or less wouldn't have any nyc biglaw access if you didn't transfer. All this assumes of course that you are willing to pay the costs (e.g., tuition, loss of rank, etc) to get that OCI access.

If you are gunning for something else (PI, academia, prestige, clerkships, biglaw in another market, or if accepted to HYS), then the above doesn't apply.


what do you mean that I won't have my grades at OCI? Can't I bring my 1L transcript from Fordham? They'll see my top grades from there...plus I'll have a columbia diploma....don't see how it would be worse really. Plus I have some insider info that FOrdham took a HUGE hit at last year's OCI. As in, many on LR and in top 10% didn't get biglaw :shock:


comments....


OP, you and I have heard similar things, which should make sense, since we are classmates. However, the people you are referring to did get awesome non-biglaw options, like prestigious Federal government jobs. I'm not going to start naming programs, but you get the idea. With your grades, you will be set if you stay, though I don't imagine leaving would hurt you. CLS costs slightly more (maybe around $1k? I remember we were comparing COA back in June.) It happens that I like the Columbians a great deal, but if this is purely a career based analysis, solidsnake has a point. By our OCI I expect that top 10% will even have options (probably not V5 options, but a far cry from what happened at the bottom of the market). This isn't to say "don't transfer," just that there is no imperative here, given how well you've done, and the rebounding market.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:43 pm

OS-
Good points all. Fordham is a great school and I really love it here. Just trying to size up my options. (Read: OS scares me and I want to speak well of Fordham or she'll kill me via the internet :))

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:45 pm

Just kidding :)

solidsnake
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby solidsnake » Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:14 pm

To clarify,

1) "no 2L grades at OCI" means exactly that: you won't have 2L grades at OCI. You will bring your Fordham 1L grades, which ITE are not as competitive at a nyu/cls OCI as similar gpa students -- students who actually went to nyu/cls for 1L and faced much fiercer competition. And as for the nyu/cls students with whom you would be competitive, you can snag that same lower tier of firm from Fordham without incurring the transaction costs.

2) By "costs" of transferring, actual tuition increase is but one rather small pecuniary cost. Substantial costs include the loss of law journal, class rank, possible scholarship money, 1L connections with profs and classmates.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:15 pm

All good points, however, I will have the same GPA at Fordham as I'll have at Columbia. I still think I'm more attractive with the Columbia degree. I won't compete with top 10% at Columbia but certainly with top 25%. Also, there are long-term career benefits. Having LR on your resume at fordham is practically a footnote compared to a columbia or nyu degree. No? Especially a number of years down the line.

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sanpiero
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby sanpiero » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:20 pm

ZXCVBNM wrote:All good points, however, I will have the same GPA at Fordham as I'll have at Columbia. I still think I'm more attractive with the Columbia degree. I won't compete with top 10% at Columbia but certainly with top 25%. Also, there are long-term career benefits. Having LR on your resume at fordham is practically a footnote compared to a columbia or nyu degree. No? Especially a number of years down the line.


I guess it depends on what you want to do with your degree

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:21 pm

Biglaw...then midlaw/in-house...then teach....with a clerkship throw-in there somewhere

UCLAtransfer
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby UCLAtransfer » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:27 pm

I think OP is in a really great position either way, so this is kind of splitting hairs, but its something to consider:

One possible danger of going from Fordham top 10% to Columbia/NYU would be that during OCI you will be interviewing with many of the same firms that go to Fordham, and you might be caught somewhere in between the two schools:

-Not quite a Fordham student anymore, since you won't be graduating from Fordham and thus can't fill one of the "spots" the firm has reserved for a Fordham student.

-Not quite a Columbia/NYU student, since if it is between you and a Columbia/NYU student who has performed similarly, they would rather take the student who has proved themselves and has 1L grades from Columbia/NYU.

I think this concern becomes less true the further down the Vault rankings you go (less selective), since top 10% at any good school is stellar. But depending on what type of firm you want to end up at this could present an issue.

keg411
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby keg411 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:34 pm

I know a Fordham->Columbia current 3L that got a V10 through OCI. But that's a sample size of 1 (I do know that she had no significant WE or anything like that, though) and it was Class '10 OCI, which happened pre-economic meltdown.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:58 pm

Thanks for all of the input. I am really amazed that even the prestigious whores on the website are about even on the poll in this thread for whether or not to transfer. I figured it would be 75% + to transfer. Speaks well of Forham for sure.




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