Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

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GPA and Law Review vs. Higher ranked school

High GPA and Law Review at T30
97
51%
Transfer to T14
94
49%
 
Total votes: 191

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A'nold
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:05 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:ZXCVBNM, were you done with your brief when you started this thread? If so, I hate you so much. :lol:

You've obviously had a kick ass first semester. I can't go posting up my GPA, for rather obvious reasons. It's bad enough that I told one person in my section.

I do think you'll have wonderful options if you stay. You know how much I love our school. I also have the most tremendous regard for both Columbia and NYU. I don't think you need to leave to get a kick ass job, but you need to do what will make you happy. I've heard of transfer students striking out at OCI, but I've also heard of them doing remarkably well. The people I know on law review at our school are set, so yeah, back to the personal happiness thing.



Hey, I was wondering why you hadn't posted in this thread yet!

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TonyDigital
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby TonyDigital » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:15 pm

OP..someone asked if money was in play earlier but you mentioned what Fordham would give potential transfer students to stay. I'm more curious if you have any scholarship money now...or are you paying sticker at Fordham?

That'd be a heavy factor for me if I were in your shoes. Then again, even if you are currently paying sticker at Fordham, I'd say if top 10% and LR at Fordham is already a certainty, I woulldn't go messing with your future too much by transferring and adding so many more intangibles in the mix.

Unless you just know or really really think you'll be happier at NYU/Columbia like OS said, I'd say stay at Fordham. Either way, you have an enviable situation. GL...

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby OperaSoprano » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:36 pm

A'nold wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:ZXCVBNM, were you done with your brief when you started this thread? If so, I hate you so much. :lol:

You've obviously had a kick ass first semester. I can't go posting up my GPA, for rather obvious reasons. It's bad enough that I told one person in my section.

I do think you'll have wonderful options if you stay. You know how much I love our school. I also have the most tremendous regard for both Columbia and NYU. I don't think you need to leave to get a kick ass job, but you need to do what will make you happy. I've heard of transfer students striking out at OCI, but I've also heard of them doing remarkably well. The people I know on law review at our school are set, so yeah, back to the personal happiness thing.



Hey, I was wondering why you hadn't posted in this thread yet!


Brief. Not. Done. It still isn't, but I'm doing this in small sprints, more or less around the clock. OP and I talked via PM, and his position is indeed enviable.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:41 pm

TonyDigital wrote:OP..someone asked if money was in play earlier but you mentioned what Fordham would give potential transfer students to stay. I'm more curious if you have any scholarship money now...or are you paying sticker at Fordham?

That'd be a heavy factor for me if I were in your shoes. Then again, even if you are currently paying sticker at Fordham, I'd say if top 10% and LR at Fordham is already a certainty, I woulldn't go messing with your future too much by transferring and adding so many more intangibles in the mix.

Unless you just know or really really think you'll be happier at NYU/Columbia like OS said, I'd say stay at Fordham. Either way, you have an enviable situation. GL...


Yeah, I'm paying sticker which is a reason to transfer. Thanks to everyone who has posted here. Just as to some of the things floating around. I heard that some hofstra transfers did reasonably well at columbia last OCI but not as well as fordham law reviewers did. However, transferring from Fordham is obviously a different ball game.

I guess there are too many unknowns to really make an informed decision here. In the end, I guess it will come down to wanting to play it "safe" and stay at fordham vs. transferring for the long-term advantages of having columbia or nyu on my diploma.

Most, important is just to do well again next semester. If anyone knows of people that have transferred and has specific info please let me know. Thanks!

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:42 pm

Also OS, I have no comment about whether or not I'm done with my brief :)

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truthypants
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby truthypants » Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:50 pm

What if your GPA goes down in your 2l and 3l years? I'd transfer.

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nativedelta
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby nativedelta » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:03 pm

I was top 25% and Law Review at a top 100 law school. I transferred to a top 40 law school that was half the price and closer to my home.

Because you abandon your GPA and start all over at your new school, in one semester I have gone down to the 90th percentile. I had 2 Cs that just killed my GPA. Two grades that might have caused a bump in my other sterling GPA have become catastrophic in my new school.

I have another friend who transferred to my new school as well. She went from top third to academic probation in her first semester.

It's rough. Apart from the scholastic issues, getting used to a new culture and new standards and preferences for writing, etc., has proven difficult as well. While I can certainly recognize the advantages of transferring, there are certainly moments when I can't help thinking I unwittingly took a shotgun to my legal career.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:07 pm

wow :shock:

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98234872348
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:11 pm

ZXCVBNM wrote:wow :shock:

Goodness that is terrible. I feel horrendous and I am not even involved.

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A'nold
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby A'nold » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:12 pm

nativedelta wrote:I was top 25% and Law Review at a top 100 law school. I transferred to a top 40 law school that was half the price and closer to my home.

Because you abandon your GPA and start all over at your new school, in one semester I have gone down to the 90th percentile. I had 2 Cs that just killed my GPA. Two grades that might have caused a bump in my other sterling GPA have become catastrophic in my new school.

I have another friend who transferred to my new school as well. She went from top third to academic probation in her first semester.

It's rough. Apart from the scholastic issues, getting used to a new culture and new standards and preferences for writing, etc., has proven difficult as well. While I can certainly recognize the advantages of transferring, there are certainly moments when I can't help thinking I unwittingly took a shotgun to my legal career.


At first I was very surprised by this, but it could be that top 1/4 at a 90'sish school would translate to bottom 1/4 at a top 40 school. You can work your butt off and compete with people that also don't fully get the "thinking like a lawyer" thing and if you are just smarter/more hard working top 25% seems doable. However, I just don't see a top 5-10% student at a 90's school being bottom 10% at a top 40.....This is just speculation.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:18 pm

I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.

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apper123
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby apper123 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:26 pm

nativedelta wrote:I was top 25% and Law Review at a top 100 law school. I transferred to a top 40 law school that was half the price and closer to my home.

Because you abandon your GPA and start all over at your new school, in one semester I have gone down to the 90th percentile. I had 2 Cs that just killed my GPA. Two grades that might have caused a bump in my other sterling GPA have become catastrophic in my new school.

I have another friend who transferred to my new school as well. She went from top third to academic probation in her first semester.

It's rough. Apart from the scholastic issues, getting used to a new culture and new standards and preferences for writing, etc., has proven difficult as well. While I can certainly recognize the advantages of transferring, there are certainly moments when I can't help thinking I unwittingly took a shotgun to my legal career.


I think Mason is a much different school than many, though. I assume you are at Mason.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:30 pm

nativedelta wrote:I was top 25% and Law Review at a top 100 law school. I transferred to a top 40 law school that was half the price and closer to my home.

Because you abandon your GPA and start all over at your new school, in one semester I have gone down to the 90th percentile. I had 2 Cs that just killed my GPA. Two grades that might have caused a bump in my other sterling GPA have become catastrophic in my new school.

I have another friend who transferred to my new school as well. She went from top third to academic probation in her first semester.

It's rough. Apart from the scholastic issues, getting used to a new culture and new standards and preferences for writing, etc., has proven difficult as well. While I can certainly recognize the advantages of transferring, there are certainly moments when I can't help thinking I unwittingly took a shotgun to my legal career.


this might not be standard practice but when applying for jobs, defintely, definitely, show them your first year grades.

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Veyron
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:43 pm

I am as big a prestige whore as anyone but I would stay pat if I were you.

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truthypants
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby truthypants » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:27 am

ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


I'm still of the opinion that the name of your school on your resume is what matters--not the grades. You are talking about transferring into the elite schools (i.e., top 14). If you are transferring, say into a Columbia, I would not even worry about grades anymore to be honest.

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ZXCVBNM
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby ZXCVBNM » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:34 am

truthypants wrote:
ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


I'm still of the opinion that the name of your school on your resume is what matters--not the grades. You are talking about transferring into the elite schools (i.e., top 14). If you are transferring, say into a Columbia, I would not even worry about grades anymore to be honest.

interesting...i wonder if i can ask any hiring partners these questions

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truthypants
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby truthypants » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:39 am

ZXCVBNM wrote:
truthypants wrote:
ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


I'm still of the opinion that the name of your school on your resume is what matters--not the grades. You are talking about transferring into the elite schools (i.e., top 14). If you are transferring, say into a Columbia, I would not even worry about grades anymore to be honest.

interesting...i wonder if i can ask any hiring partners these questions


Don't take my word--go to xyz biglaw firm's webpage and see how many of their attorneys come from the t-14 (and see how many of those were on law review, summa cum laude grads).

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Dick Whitman
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby Dick Whitman » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:53 am

jks289 wrote:If there isn't any scholarship money in play, I'd say transfer. The school's name is going to stick with you longer than that GPA. You've already proven you have what it takes to be a top notch law student. I doubt it is that much harder to be to 10% at Fordham than it is at NYU/Columbia (0L talking, though). Both have excellent people at the top of their classes.


But graduating Magna and being on LR will be on someone's web attorney profile forever as well.

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Veyron
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby Veyron » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:58 am

truthypants wrote:
ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


I'm still of the opinion that the name of your school on your resume is what matters--not the grades. You are talking about transferring into the elite schools (i.e., top 14). If you are transferring, say into a Columbia, I would not even worry about grades anymore to be honest.


HAHAHA, dood, you do know that CLSers are striking out for biglaw left and right, right?

hithere
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby hithere » Mon Mar 01, 2010 1:42 am

Dick Whitman wrote:
jks289 wrote:If there isn't any scholarship money in play, I'd say transfer. The school's name is going to stick with you longer than that GPA. You've already proven you have what it takes to be a top notch law student. I doubt it is that much harder to be to 10% at Fordham than it is at NYU/Columbia (0L talking, though). Both have excellent people at the top of their classes.


But graduating Magna and being on LR will be on someone's web attorney profile forever as well.


But graduating with a degree from a t-14 will be there on their profile forever as well. Push came to shove, i'd rather have UVA (or any t-14 for that matter) next to my name than top of the class at Fordham. Simply put, a biglaw lawyer's career is not that long (at least not the typical ones--make partner or your ass gets canned). Having a big name school on your resume opens other doors (academia, etc). Transfer--my .02 cents.

270910
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby 270910 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:59 pm

ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


Just a quick comment: It's worth realizing that the poster said 'top 25%'.

The people who tear it up - get a GPA in the 3.8+ range where most of their grades were solid A range, have the system down.

The difference between top 5% and top 25% at my school at least is actually an enormous roughly .33 grade points.It's definitely respectable in comparison to others at the current school but it really doesn't represent a commanding grasp of the law school process in an objective sense.

Does that make sense? I think the odds of continued high performance increase the higher one's initial performance, because what rank a person has can often exaggerate actual performance on exams.

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A'nold
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:17 am

disco_barred wrote:
ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


Just a quick comment: It's worth realizing that the poster said 'top 25%'.

The people who tear it up - get a GPA in the 3.8+ range where most of their grades were solid A range, have the system down.

The difference between top 5% and top 25% at my school at least is actually an enormous roughly .33 grade points.It's definitely respectable in comparison to others at the current school but it really doesn't represent a commanding grasp of the law school process in an objective sense.

Does that make sense? I think the odds of continued high performance increase the higher one's initial performance, because what rank a person has can often exaggerate actual performance on exams.


Yeah, that's what I was saying above. Top 25%, while good, is not like slaughtering the curve either. It seems like only the top 10% or so of the class get the whole "thinking like a lawyer" thing down. Top 25% seems to me like somebody that outworked the other 75% of the class that are still struggling to apply law to fact the way that professors want it and give A's for but they themselves are still not necessarily completely "getting it" all the way, ya know? I could be completely wrong here and it could vary from school rank to school rank but this is kind of just my impression.

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming to be a law school god or anything, I just really, really tried to listen and apply the stuff that poster like arrow have shared with us.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:41 pm

A'nold wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


Just a quick comment: It's worth realizing that the poster said 'top 25%'.

The people who tear it up - get a GPA in the 3.8+ range where most of their grades were solid A range, have the system down.

The difference between top 5% and top 25% at my school at least is actually an enormous roughly .33 grade points.It's definitely respectable in comparison to others at the current school but it really doesn't represent a commanding grasp of the law school process in an objective sense.

Does that make sense? I think the odds of continued high performance increase the higher one's initial performance, because what rank a person has can often exaggerate actual performance on exams.


Yeah, that's what I was saying above. Top 25%, while good, is not like slaughtering the curve either. It seems like only the top 10% or so of the class get the whole "thinking like a lawyer" thing down. Top 25% seems to me like somebody that outworked the other 75% of the class that are still struggling to apply law to fact the way that professors want it and give A's for but they themselves are still not necessarily completely "getting it" all the way, ya know? I could be completely wrong here and it could vary from school rank to school rank but this is kind of just my impression.

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming to be a law school god or anything, I just really, really tried to listen and apply the stuff that poster like arrow have shared with us.


So, are you guys saying that the higher your GPA, the better your chances are of keeping it consistent? Top 10% is the threshold? Interesting stuff... I want to do better this semester. I didn't do badly, but I am not in the 3.8+ range, so by TLS standards I underperformed abysmally. (We curve to around a 3.17)

And yes, you are a law school god. Have you looked at your transcript, A'nold?

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A'nold
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby A'nold » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:49 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
A'nold wrote:
disco_barred wrote:
ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


Just a quick comment: It's worth realizing that the poster said 'top 25%'.

The people who tear it up - get a GPA in the 3.8+ range where most of their grades were solid A range, have the system down.

The difference between top 5% and top 25% at my school at least is actually an enormous roughly .33 grade points.It's definitely respectable in comparison to others at the current school but it really doesn't represent a commanding grasp of the law school process in an objective sense.

Does that make sense? I think the odds of continued high performance increase the higher one's initial performance, because what rank a person has can often exaggerate actual performance on exams.


Yeah, that's what I was saying above. Top 25%, while good, is not like slaughtering the curve either. It seems like only the top 10% or so of the class get the whole "thinking like a lawyer" thing down. Top 25% seems to me like somebody that outworked the other 75% of the class that are still struggling to apply law to fact the way that professors want it and give A's for but they themselves are still not necessarily completely "getting it" all the way, ya know? I could be completely wrong here and it could vary from school rank to school rank but this is kind of just my impression.

Disclaimer: I'm not claiming to be a law school god or anything, I just really, really tried to listen and apply the stuff that poster like arrow have shared with us.


So, are you guys saying that the higher your GPA, the better your chances are of keeping it consistent? Top 10% is the threshold? Interesting stuff... I want to do better this semester. I didn't do badly, but I am not in the 3.8+ range, so by TLS standards I underperformed abysmally. (We curve to around a 3.17)

And yes, you are a law school god. Have you looked at your transcript, A'nold?


LOL Opera, you crack me up. I am the Mr. Hanky the Christmas Poo of law schools. :)

Anyway, I my top 10% guess was just speculation and it might be lower at higher ranked schools and higher at lower ranked schools. I would say that the top 5% of students here probably know how exam taking works and "get it" but there might be like 20% at Fordham, for example.

I think that disco-barred and I picked up on the same thing though for a reason. It just seems like at schools like CUA, for example, top 25% can be acheived from working your butt off in comparison to the other 90% + of students who still write exams without "getting it" or it "clicking."

Edit: And LULZ at you "underperforming." You and I are probably the most self critical people I've ever known, haha. If I start feeling bad about the curve here or that I'm "only #1 in MY section" or something like that, I should just look at your posts and see how dumb that sounds! You should do the same with my posts, haha.

UCLAtransfer
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Re: Losing your GPA and Law Review at new school..still worth it

Postby UCLAtransfer » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:03 pm

ZXCVBNM wrote:I mostly hear that if you do really well at one law school, you usually will do well at a higher ranked school.....usually. That is the risk of losing your gpa.


Agreed. The vast majority of the transfers I know did just as well as they did at previous schools. After working incredibly hard during my first year I was top 15% at my T2 school. After transferring, I made it well within top 10% at my new school, with MUCH less work.

I think there are two main reasons people generally do about as well grades-wise even after transferring:

(1) If you can do very well during both semesters of 1L, it means you "get" law school exams.

(2) 2L year and beyond, people are usually not working as hard as 1L, and forced/steep curves are generally less prevalent.




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