t3, top 5%, chances? Forum

[A'nold]

Rural t3 state flagship school. Top 5%. My transfer list:

Chicago ED
Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Cornell
Vanderbilt/USC?
UW-Seattle (Seattle is my ultimate target market but it is not necessary that I live there, just preferred).

What do you think?
We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

[ATOIsp07]

Rural t3 state flagship school. Top 5%. My transfer list:

Chicago ED
Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Cornell
Vanderbilt/USC?
UW-Seattle (Seattle is my ultimate target market but it is not necessary that I live there, just preferred).

What do you think?
We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

For you to presume that you'll finish in the top 5% of your class is honestly foolish. You're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. And, even if you did happen to finish in the top 5%, nobody can accurately gauge your chances of transferring into a T14/T1, especially coming from a "rural t3 state flagship school". There are simply too many variables at play.

[vanwinkle]

Rural t3 state flagship school. Top 5%. My transfer list:

Chicago ED
Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Cornell
Vanderbilt/USC?
UW-Seattle (Seattle is my ultimate target market but it is not necessary that I live there, just preferred).

What do you think?
We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

For you to presume that you'll finish in the top 5% of your class is honestly foolish. You're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. And, even if you did happen to finish in the top 5%, nobody can accurately gauge your chances of transferring into a T14/T1, especially coming from a "rural t3 state flagship school". There are simply too many variables at play.

I'm pretty sure that OP has already finished in the top 5% of his class and is asking for transfer advice...

OP, I think you should apply to all the mentioned schools as well as UVA. Top 5% is going to help a lot, but I really think the problem is going to be a possible increased number of transfer applications this year. With more people trying to transfer up it'll be more competitive than usual and harder to predict. Traditionally going to a T3 has meant being shut out of HYS but lower T14 schools have taken folks with top grades from T3s. You'll just have to blanket all of these schools and see what happens, but I think your chances are good enough that it's worthwhile to do so. UW is a good "safety" I think, especially if your T3 is in the Northwest. Good luck!

[A'nold]

Rural t3 state flagship school. Top 5%. My transfer list:

Chicago ED
Penn
Michigan
Northwestern
Cornell
Vanderbilt/USC?
UW-Seattle (Seattle is my ultimate target market but it is not necessary that I live there, just preferred).

What do you think?
We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

For you to presume that you'll finish in the top 5% of your class is honestly foolish. You're putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. And, even if you did happen to finish in the top 5%, nobody can accurately gauge your chances of transferring into a T14/T1, especially coming from a "rural t3 state flagship school". There are simply too many variables at play.

I'm pretty sure that OP has already finished in the top 5% of his class and is asking for transfer advice...

OP, I think you should apply to all the mentioned schools as well as UVA. Top 5% is going to help a lot, but I really think the problem is going to be a possible increased number of transfer applications this year. With more people trying to transfer up it'll be more competitive than usual and harder to predict. Traditionally going to a T3 has meant being shut out of HYS but lower T14 schools have taken folks with top grades from T3s. You'll just have to blanket all of these schools and see what happens, but I think your chances are good enough that it's worthwhile to do so. UW is a good "safety" I think, especially if your T3 is in the Northwest. Good luck!

Thanks. Yeah, already top 5% first semester, although I guess it is possible I could slip next semester. I hear, anecdotally, that student near the top don't slip very far, if at all, for various reasons but I'm not naive enough to expect it.

I was thinking UVA but don't they stick with VA residents a lot for transferring? I just assumed that many of the "t3" kind of students they would take would be from VA and then stock up on t1 transfers for out-of-state. Anyone have any info on an out-of-state t3 top 5% student's chances at UVA? Thanks.

[vanwinkle]

Thanks. Yeah, already top 5% first semester, although I guess it is possible I could slip next semester. I hear, anecdotally, that student near the top don't slip very far, if at all, for various reasons but I'm not naive enough to expect it.

I was thinking UVA but don't they stick with VA residents a lot for transferring? I just assumed that many of the "t3" kind of students they would take would be from VA and then stock up on t1 transfers for out-of-state. Anyone have any info on an out-of-state t3 top 5% student's chances at UVA? Thanks.

I've been told that those who do well in all their classes tend to do so again and again, as long as they keep doing what they've been doing. Once you've "got it" you know how to get good grades and you can keep doing so. Just make sure you put in the same effort you did last semester, and I'm sure you'll be fine.

UVA's requirement toward accepting a certain percentage of students in-state only applies to 1L admissions, I think. I'm not sure about that, but I'll try to verify it and get back to you. Everything that I have seen indicates that transfer apps are 95% grades, so even if VA does reserve like 40% of transfer seats for in-state, you'll still be competitive for the other 60% they give out.

[avacado111]

A'nold- how did you do so well in law school?

[thesealocust]

edit: never mind

[vanwinkle]

1) UVA strongly if not exclusively takes VA residents as transfers, it's part of how they meet the required number of instate students.

2) I have no idea where the meme of 'there will be more transfers this year' came from, but I see no reason to believe it automatically.

I defer to sealocust on #1, because as I said, I wasn't sure about it myself.

On #2, the "more transfers this year" comes from the unusual amount of bloodbath at lower-ranked schools. Even folks in the lower T1 aren't finding good jobs despite being top 10% and on LR. Psychologically I'm expecting that to inspire a hell of a lot of flight attempts, at least a lot more flight attempts by people who might in past years have gone "at least if I stay here I'm safe because I'm top 10%/on LR/etc."

I admit that I have no evidence to back this up, but I also called the real estate crash well in advance, so.

[lovelaw27]

A'nold, you said you do not want to apply to Boalt because of the cost. I do not know what your financial situation is, but their website implies they offer need based aid to transfer students it says:

Submit the Need Access application by March 2nd. Required for need-based aid. This will allow us to offer you a need-based grant based on your eligibility. If you are determined to be eligible, we will update your financial aid offer with the grant. Transfer students, please note that you must submit your Estimated Summer Earnings (found on our Forms page) before the award is calculated.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6579.htm

You may want to check it out.

[patrickd139]

We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

Having absolutely no intention to apply to UCLA or Boalt myself, how did you arrived at 80-85k per year in total cost for those schools? I'm not doubting your calculations in the least, just curious about the specifics.

Unless you insist on living in some place like this...

[kings84_wr]

We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

Having absolutely no intention to apply to UCLA or Boalt myself, how did you arrived at 80-85k per year in total cost for those schools? I'm not doubting your calculations in the least, just curious about the specifics.

Yes this worries me a bit too. Does anyone know if lose CA residency since i've been INdiana for law school since August?

[Bankhead]

A'nold- how did you do so well in law school?

What TLSer hasn't??

[roadkilllaw]

We don't want to apply to GULC/UCLA/Boalt. D.C. is not really for us and UCLA and Boalt's COA for out-of-state residents w/ no scholarship will likely be something in the neighborhood of 80-85k a year, from what I hear. If anyone has any suggestions or knows something about the UC tuition that differs from my projections, please post.

Having absolutely no intention to apply to UCLA or Boalt myself, how did you arrived at 80-85k per year in total cost for those schools? I'm not doubting your calculations in the least, just curious about the specifics.

Unless you insist on living in some place like this...

also curious about the 80-85K/yr, that seems really, really high to me

[apper123]

1) UVA strongly if not exclusively takes VA residents as transfers, it's part of how they meet the required number of instate students.

2) I have no idea where the meme of 'there will be more transfers this year' came from, but I see no reason to believe it automatically.

I wonder if I can meet the requirements to be a VA resident at this point... I mean I know it's hard as hell to get that here but holy crap I've been living here like 6 years now. Just not working...

[savetheturtles]

Right now, the cost of attendance at Berkeley is $70000 for out of state. According to this: --LinkRemoved--, it seems that the out of state tuition is going to rise by $4000 a year, so that means ~$74000 for 2L and ~$78000 for 3L. UCLA is ~$67000 now, so he's looking at $71000 and $75000 for the two years. If he needs any cost of living adjustment for his family or something, then it'll probably hit $80000.

[Bankhead]

Right now, the cost of attendance at Berkeley is $70000 for out of state. According to this: --LinkRemoved--, it seems that the out of state tuition is going to rise by $4000 a year, so that means ~$74000 for 2L and ~$78000 for 3L. UCLA is ~$67000 now, so he's looking at $71000 and $75000 for the two years. If he needs any cost of living adjustment for his family or something, then it'll probably hit $80000.

Holy shit, forget California.

[kings84_wr]

Right now, the cost of attendance at Berkeley is $70000 for out of state. According to this: --LinkRemoved--, it seems that the out of state tuition is going to rise by $4000 a year, so that means ~$74000 for 2L and ~$78000 for 3L. UCLA is ~$67000 now, so he's looking at $71000 and $75000 for the two years. If he needs any cost of living adjustment for his family or something, then it'll probably hit $80000.

Holy shit, forget California.

This is why there are so many of us at IU haha.

[A'nold]

A'nold- how did you do so well in law school?

My wife told me to say that I pimp her out to the professors, haha. Really, not to be cliche, it is all about the exams. There were probably quite a few people that could "out-black letter law" me but I really tried to focus on hitting all of the issues I could find, putting myself in the role of objective analyzer, and tried to hit as many details from the fact pattern as I could to "give evidence" for my answers and also to do that thang that prof's love so much: dissect the ambiguities, element by element, exhausting even the most obvious crap, even if I felt like an idiot for pointing out the obvious. Oh yeah, study really hard too, haha.

[apper123]

A'nold- how did you do so well in law school?

My wife told me to say that I pimp her out to the professors, haha. Really, not to be cliche, it is all about the exams. There were probably quite a few people that could "out-black letter law" me but I really tried to focus on hitting all of the issues I could find, putting myself in the role of objective analyzer, and tried to hit as many details from the fact pattern as I could to "give evidence" for my answers and also to do that thang that prof's love so much: dissect the ambiguities, element by element, exhausting even the most obvious crap, even if I felt like an idiot for pointing out the obvious. Oh yeah, study really hard too, haha.

Yeah all these things are why I think I was successful too.

The part I bolded, however, is exactly why I'm terrified of the fact that 3/4 of my exams this semester have strict word limits. Those are my best skills, and I simply can't do that within a word limit. Flat curves here we come.

[A'nold]

1) UVA strongly if not exclusively takes VA residents as transfers, it's part of how they meet the required number of instate students.

2) I have no idea where the meme of 'there will be more transfers this year' came from, but I see no reason to believe it automatically.

1. That's what I was afraid of, so I'll probs have to scratch UVA.
2. I agree with you, though I have no evidence. I kind of though the economy would have the opposite effect. I, for one, will likely not apply to schools like Emory, Notre Dame, Minn., etc. because I just don't know if it is worth it to give up top 5% and law review at a school that has a pretty dang statewide alumni network in the "region" I would like to live in for the prospect of graduating from a top 20ish school with tons more debt and be a small fish in a big pond. At least in this state my grades, from what I hear, almost assure me a decent if not by local standards, good job.
I just talked to a 2L on LR that I believe has top 5% grades that got a 2L SA secondary market biglaw job in the state's major city. He applied to like 15-20 firms and got upwards of 7 interviews and got offers from 2 firms. Not bad ITE IMO. It's like these "only school in the state" kind of law schools avoid the t3 stigma as long as you stay within the region. Top 5% will do me well here, I think.

[A'nold]

A'nold- how did you do so well in law school?

My wife told me to say that I pimp her out to the professors, haha. Really, not to be cliche, it is all about the exams. There were probably quite a few people that could "out-black letter law" me but I really tried to focus on hitting all of the issues I could find, putting myself in the role of objective analyzer, and tried to hit as many details from the fact pattern as I could to "give evidence" for my answers and also to do that thang that prof's love so much: dissect the ambiguities, element by element, exhausting even the most obvious crap, even if I felt like an idiot for pointing out the obvious. Oh yeah, study really hard too, haha.

Yeah all these things are why I think I was successful too.

The part I bolded, however, is exactly why I'm terrified of the fact that 3/4 of my exams this semester have strict word limits. Those are my best skills, and I simply can't do that within a word limit. Flat curves here we come.

I'm sorry but prof's that have word limits are pretty much lazy jerk offs (maybe if not jerks then at least VERY inconsiderate of students' grades). My lowest grade BY FAR was in a strict word limit class. Granted this prof. is notorious for being the hardest grader at the school.

[A'nold]

A'nold, you said you do not want to apply to Boalt because of the cost. I do not know what your financial situation is, but their website implies they offer need based aid to transfer students it says:

Submit the Need Access application by March 2nd. Required for need-based aid. This will allow us to offer you a need-based grant based on your eligibility. If you are determined to be eligible, we will update your financial aid offer with the grant. Transfer students, please note that you must submit your Estimated Summer Earnings (found on our Forms page) before the award is calculated.

http://www.law.berkeley.edu/6579.htm

You may want to check it out.

Thanks A LOT! Great find. This may change my mind about Berkeley (as if I'll be accepted, lol).

As to the whole "80-85k per year" thing: Yep, dude was right on the money. I am married with a child and will have to take out at least 5k more per year than the budget allots for. The UC's tuition scheme just blows my mind. I have no idea how UCLA is going to keep up with Vandy and Texas and even USC can start gaining some ground if it doesn't raise tuition at the same drastic rate of UCLA. If a student is choosing b/w USC and UCLA, I'm not sure he/she can rationalize paying like 20-25k more per year for a UCLA degree when they are pretty comparable schools.

[Big Shrimpin]

^^^+1 on hating strict word limits. For me, it was a psyche-out. Ultimately, it meant the difference between having one of the top 5 or so grades in three exams and below the median in another. Luckily, I think this year is all closed-book/no word limit. After exams, the letters on my keyboard may be indecipherable.

Also, congrats on a great semester, A'nold. And when you kill it again this semester, I say definitely take a shot at those schools (but only Chicago ED now if you're dead-set on it). If nothing else, you could give yourself peace of mind to know that you at least applied. And I'm sure the time and money spent attempting to transfer up will only multiply your successes in the future.

[A'nold]

^^^+1 on hating strict word limits. For me, it was a psyche-out. Ultimately, it meant the difference between having one of the top 5 or so grades in three exams and below the median in another. Luckily, I think this year is all closed-book/no word limit. After exams, the letters on my keyboard may be indecipherable.

Also, congrats on a great semester, A'nold. And when you kill it again this semester, I say definitely take a shot at those schools (but only Chicago ED now if you're dead-set on it). If nothing else, you could give yourself peace of mind to know that you at least applied. And I'm sure the time and money spent attempting to transfer up will only multiply your successes in the future.

Thanks. Chicago is such a long shot that I doubt I'd even apply if it wasn't for the ED. If they accept me, I'll be in Chicago that night, lol.

My dream school has always been and still is Michigan though. I just think that Chicago is such a long shot that if I got lucky I'd be the happiest transfer alive, so I don't think I'm risking a dream or anything by doing ED. I really, REALLY doubt I have a change though. Good luck this semester!

[jcl2]

Congrats on your solid first semester! I think the T3 you are at is one of several T3s that really aren't "TTT" so to speak. Just as your top 5% will serve you well for finding a good job in the region, probably much better than if you were at a T3 in a major market, IMO it will also serve you better for transferring than top 5% would at most T3s. For one thing, most of the lower T14 schools will receive transfer apps from everyone in the top 5% at most T3s, but I am willing to bet they will not get many apps from people at your school, that in itself should help you. Also I think that flagship state schools in small western states are just generally more well respected by employers and other law schools than similarly ranked private diploma mills in major markets. And for good reason, there are lots of reasons that someone could make a good informed decision to go to the school you are attending, and I'm not sure if that is true of most T3s.

Good luck! At worst you should be in at UW, which wouldn't be to bad if you want to stay in the NW.