Should We Transfer? (Non-T14 1Ls Who Owned Exams) Forum

[megaTTTron]

I think you're smart to do GTown. And to not do Chicago's binding EA. Although, even if you do markedly worse, you'll likely still remain in the top 10%, which keeps other t14s in the picture.

Yeah, that's true. Even if I got a 3.5 this semester, I'd have a 3.76 for the year, and that's currently top ten. It's a tough call with the deposit money but I'm not sure that I'd take Virginia or Duke over Georgetown, and I don't know that schools above UVA would be too crazy about me if I had a weak second semester.

Two things:

(1) I heard the W&L students in the top 10% are virtually a lock at UVA. I don't know where I read that. And I would imagine schools in the Southeast will look favorably on W&L, as well.

(2) The deposit money in the long run is negligible. It's one school, and it's just insurance, because if you end up performing similarly you'll be a lock at some middle t14s or better.

[kings84_wr]

So were any of you all the quiet types in class like me? I would answer when cold called and in the rarest of occasions raise my hand, but nothing to make myself memorable. Im thinking asking for LoR's is going to be really really awkward. I figure the profs will base the letter on my grade in the class but I just don't really know what else they can say other then,"he got an A on my exam".

[patrickd139]

So were any of you all the quiet types in class like me? I would answer when cold called and in the rarest of occasions raise my hand, but nothing to make myself memorable. Im thinking asking for LoR's is going to be really really awkward. I figure the profs will base the letter on my grade in the class but I just don't really know what else they can say other then,"he got an A on my exam".

If you have any of the same profs this semester as last, this problem is easy to fix: start going to office hours and building a relationship with them. If not, start going to their office hours and building a relationship with them.

[kings84_wr]

So were any of you all the quiet types in class like me? I would answer when cold called and in the rarest of occasions raise my hand, but nothing to make myself memorable. Im thinking asking for LoR's is going to be really really awkward. I figure the profs will base the letter on my grade in the class but I just don't really know what else they can say other then,"he got an A on my exam".

If you have any of the same profs this semester as last, this problem is easy to fix: start going to office hours and building a relationship with them. If not, start going to their office hours and building a relationship with them.

Yeah unfortunately my only prof that is the same is my LRW class, and since it was p/f I did not really put a whole lot of effort into LRW.

One prof did go out of his way to tell me I got the highest grade in his class, so maybe he would be a good option.

Im assuming 2nd semester profs don't really like to write LOR's until after grades?

[megaTTTron]

So were any of you all the quiet types in class like me? I would answer when cold called and in the rarest of occasions raise my hand, but nothing to make myself memorable. Im thinking asking for LoR's is going to be really really awkward. I figure the profs will base the letter on my grade in the class but I just don't really know what else they can say other then,"he got an A on my exam".

Yes. And you're fine.


I have one prof with whom I had a close relationship - he actually offered to write me a letter of rec before I asked.

The other, I barely spoke too. But I got the second highest grade in the class and he was like "oh of course I'll write you a letter, you got an A."

So you're fine. Recall, like what Arrow said, Profs are pretty much paid to write LORs. Don't worry. I will say that the more a prof knows you, the better and more personal the LOR will be.

[transferALT]

1L at lower T1. Top 1-2% of class. How far up can I go? Is H a possibility? What about YS?

[98234872348]

1L at lower T1. Top 1-2% of class. How far up can I go? Is H a possibility? What about YS?

It is possible, not probable. Might depend on your pre-law school stats Gpa/Lsat. Definitely worth the app fee.

[transferALT]

1L at lower T1. Top 1-2% of class. How far up can I go? Is H a possibility? What about YS?

It is possible, not probable. Might depend on your pre-law school stats Gpa/Lsat. Definitely worth the app fee.

Thanks. Where do you think my bread and butter could be? My Lsat/GPA was mid 160's / low.

[kings84_wr]

So were any of you all the quiet types in class like me? I would answer when cold called and in the rarest of occasions raise my hand, but nothing to make myself memorable. Im thinking asking for LoR's is going to be really really awkward. I figure the profs will base the letter on my grade in the class but I just don't really know what else they can say other then,"he got an A on my exam".

Yes. And you're fine.


I have one prof with whom I had a close relationship - he actually offered to write me a letter of rec before I asked.

The other, I barely spoke too. But I got the second highest grade in the class and he was like "oh of course I'll write you a letter, you got an A."

So you're fine. Recall, like what Arrow said, Profs are pretty much paid to write LORs. Don't worry. I will say that the more a prof knows you, the better and more personal the LOR will be.

Thanks I think im just over thinking this whole process.

What are your guys thoughts on my situation. Im around top 5-8 percent at Indiana. I think I want to go back to CA, though I am open to the whole midwest or anywhere for that matter (which is kinda why I came to IU in the first place). Should I be shooting for Berkeley?

[traydeuce]

I think you're smart to do GTown. And to not do Chicago's binding EA. Although, even if you do markedly worse, you'll likely still remain in the top 10%, which keeps other t14s in the picture.

Yeah, that's true. Even if I got a 3.5 this semester, I'd have a 3.76 for the year, and that's currently top ten. It's a tough call with the deposit money but I'm not sure that I'd take Virginia or Duke over Georgetown, and I don't know that schools above UVA would be too crazy about me if I had a weak second semester.

Two things:

(1) I heard the W&L students in the top 10% are virtually a lock at UVA. I don't know where I read that. And I would imagine schools in the Southeast will look favorably on W&L, as well.

(2) The deposit money in the long run is negligible. It's one school, and it's just insurance, because if you end up performing similarly you'll be a lock at some middle t14s or better.

Going here I've heard differently about UVA, but that brings me to a question I've been mulling over - is there any real reason to take UVA or Duke over Georgetown? I understand that there's a difference of ranking, but I'm not sure what that's based on. I'm not aware that there's a huge difference in the quality of job placement, and I do plan on working in DC anyway, after getting a clerkship.

[98234872348]

1L at lower T1. Top 1-2% of class. How far up can I go? Is H a possibility? What about YS?

It is possible, not probable. Might depend on your pre-law school stats Gpa/Lsat. Definitely worth the app fee.

Thanks. Where do you think my bread and butter could be? My Lsat/GPA was mid 160's / low.

You should be able to transfer anywhere else besides HYS if you can continue performing at that level.

[MadameX]

I guess I'll introduce myself as well. I'm probably ~Top 5 % at a Texas/Vanderbilt/UCLA/USC school, also looking to transfer. HYS would be fantastic, but I will probably need to improve grades next semester. (If there is anyone lurking around on this thread that transfered from one of the above mentioned schools, It'd be great to hear from you). I'm also going to apply to CCN; Columbia is probably my first choice after the trinity.

[XxSpyKEx]

Last year I was a t3 (regional) w/ a full ride. Personally, I didn't think GULC was worth paying sticker at (meaning t30s weren't either).

If you can squeeze a full-ride out of your t4, and you’re happy with staying there, then it may not be such a bad deal. But if they don’t offer you’re a full-ride at the end of the year (or at least close to – ending up with under $60K total at graduation is manageable with a $40K /year job, whereas a $100K is not), then leaving for a t30 might be worth it. It’s really more then anything weighing your options, which unfortunately, for t3 or t4 students (that are paying tuition) aren’t great ITE (i.e. it’s hard to justify paying $100K+ for 2 year at t30 when it means being locked out of biglaw, but its also hard to justify paying anything at the t3/t4 for the other 2 years).

It seems like we are on the same page here. I almost think that if I stay I would have a marginally better chance at biglaw (obviously through family connections not OCI or cold resume sending) by being able to put #1 (rankings came out today) down vs. at best maybe top 1/3 or so at a t30. That being said, t14 would obviously be a different story.

Any past evidence of a t4 school offering a full + stipend after 1L to induce staying?

Also, I spoke with a dean today who said last year we had a GULC and Berkeley transfer and neither were #1, but in the top 5%. So there is hope for me yet!

The living stipend is probably really rare. My old school had a formal policy written in the handbook saying that they give out full tuition scholarships to the top of the class after 1L year (but left the GPA requirement open since I think they essentially only offered it to people who could leave for t14s). I think that is rare as well though. Odds are if you show them an acceptance letter to Berkeley/GULC they'll offer you money put probably not a full ride, which should make your decision pretty easy. Congrats on being #1!

[PDaddy]

My problem, is that GULC doesn't give me that fuzzy feeling in my chest. Even though it's an amazing school, I'd rather be at UCLA or USC that Gtown. That, however, is just me.

I have the exact opposite feeling. I'm somewhere between 10%-20% at UCLA/USC and am going to apply to Gtown. The school is great, I just do not want to be in Los Angeles anymore. I'm hoping that if I get in, OCI won't be too bad since my school has a pretty good rank/reputation, although I would still probably be at a disadvantage compared to the Gtown kids

The grass is always greener, right? If I lived in L.A. and was sick of it, I would favor an east coast school, too. And if I was from Philly or D.C., I might want to get some sun on the left coast.

[Nazrix]

Easily answered:

I do not know what school you go to or it's rank, as I did not have time to read 65 posts, but, as a 3L at a T20:

3 years ago, top 20% at a t1-2 school (outside top 20), was probably good enough for biglaw for most people, and if you had a scholarship, eh, you might as well stick it out unless you get T10.

However, now, the economy is so horrible that transferring to a T20 or even T10 might screw you in the long term because of the difficult economy and the case that you may not find a decent job that soon, but your debt will be there waiting for you...

If you're tops at a lower-ranked law school, and can reasonably expect to stay in the top, and have a scholarship, you should probably stay put, I don't see any law school really worth like 40-60k/year.

Also be aware that the UC's are raising their tuition to ridiculous 60k levels or something in the next 1-3 years, so you might leave with 150k debt if you take out full loans for 2 years at say UCLA...that's a big risk, and, OCI hasn't been all that rosy for us either... My OCI was fine, but the current 2Ls had a hell of a time, even those in the top 10% during their 1L at a T20...also remember your lower-ranked LS grades are all they are gonna see at OCI, (having known transfers) they are held to the same standards as if they stayed at their previous school...

this might differ with some firms, but honestly, most firms seem to have a "number" in their mind and the "type" of person they want, I would honestly guess you have an equal shot at a biglaw job in the top 10% of your T1 or T2, as you do as a transfer to a T20.

I worked with some top 5-7% people at my biglaw summer gig, they probably knew more about the law than I did, and paid a lot more attention than I did in class, and in an era where summer gigs can be a rat-race, you might not have the time to pass up people who have "done their homework."

Unless you get into HYS, I would stay put.

[Nazrix]

Ok you can ignore the previous post unless you are someone who wants to know and you are in a T2-T3...

In regards to your actual situation (which I have now read), going to WUSTL, which is T20 anyways, eh, I was in a similar situation. You have to evaluate your social happiness, job prospects, burden of moving, and cost of a new school...

Basically, what it came down to for me was that, my T20 was in the city I wanted to practice, the only other T20 in the area was basically the same rank, and the only better ranked schools in the north, were tough to get into. (California)

Also, I had a medium sized scholarship here, and I don't think transfers can get a scholarship, so I figured eh, it would be a marginal gain, a completely new area, where I knew nobody, and I would just have to come back here and explain why I left, or it wasn't 'good enough.'

Though, if I got into HYS, I think I would have gone, but I think definitely NOT, if it was anything lower than that. The economy sucks at every school right now, at least where you're at, you'll probably get to interview with WUSTL grads, and they will know you're the top there, whereas at some other school, you'll interview w/ that school's grads, have not even been to 1 class there (1L summer oci), and probably spend time talking about your transfer.

Also, like some people have said, don't underestimate the social relationships you have as a 1L, there will never be a time you're as close and packed in with people as 1L, and you'll never meet that many people that fast. As a 2L, at a dif school, you'll have huge hurdles to even meet people, and will end up with much less friends in the end, and probably a worse experience.... nobody I know at the T14 or higher even goes to 2L or 3L class, and I always wonder how the LLMs at our school meet people since they know nobody, and it seems like it's tough for them. The people who transferred in at my school at like 50/50 on how happy they look, some found it hard, others acclimated easier.

But, if you are some type of social malcontent and hate everyone at WUSTL, you have nothing to lose by starting fresh!

If I had to answer you, do I wish I rather went to HYS after my 1L? Harvard and Yale yes, those will always sound great and awesome. Stanford, eh much less sway with pedestrians in my market, where my current school is thought to be pretty good... even among law students and lawyers, it seems like H and Y even make them be like "wow, nice" whereas anything else in the T20 seems pretty much the same, as long as you did well there.

[apper123]

nobody I know at the T14 or higher even goes to 2L or 3L class

I find this really hard to believe. Can anyone confirm/deny?

[MarkTwain]

LOL. Deny.

[ToTransferOrNot]

Deny all day long. Maybe UChicago is the exception (I doubt it,) but attendance is always 90%+ for all of my classes. Much higher attendance rate than the 1L classes at Wisconsin (people got too drunk during lunch to go to class at Wisconsin.)

[apper123]

How hard is it to find friends and social groups as a transfer 2L? I mean I know we're all there to study, but that's important to me.

[vanwinkle]

nobody I know at the T14 or higher even goes to 2L or 3L class

I find this really hard to believe. Can anyone confirm/deny?

A 3L here at my T14 told me an "awesome story" about how he took one class, skipped 3/4 of his classes, used an outline written by a classmate on the final, and got an A-.

However, he then ended it with "But that was before the economy happened. Now everyone's working their ass off for good grades and you have to show up for class and stuff."

[ToTransferOrNot]

How hard is it to find friends and social groups as a transfer 2L? I mean I know we're all there to study, but that's important to me.

First of all, the other transfer students are a good source.

Second, if you're still worried about being able to make friends in a new place in your mid-20s... I'm just about the most socially inept person ever (ask dresden for proof,) and even I have more social opportunities than I have time to spare. And I don't even really study much (at all, the past few weeks.)

[OperaSoprano]

How hard is it to find friends and social groups as a transfer 2L? I mean I know we're all there to study, but that's important to me.

First of all, the other transfer students are a good source.

Second, if you're still worried about being able to make friends in a new place in your mid-20s... I'm just about the most socially inept person ever (ask dresden for proof,) and even I have more social opportunities than I have time to spare. And I don't even really study much (at all, the past few weeks.)

This doesn't surprise me at all. To apper: Just don't make friends with all the people at your local T14s beforehand. They will try to mess with your resolve.

Also, dresden is lovely. She would never speak ill of anyone (unless perhaps they truly deserved it.)

[ToTransferOrNot]

How hard is it to find friends and social groups as a transfer 2L? I mean I know we're all there to study, but that's important to me.

First of all, the other transfer students are a good source.

Second, if you're still worried about being able to make friends in a new place in your mid-20s... I'm just about the most socially inept person ever (ask dresden for proof,) and even I have more social opportunities than I have time to spare. And I don't even really study much (at all, the past few weeks.)

This doesn't surprise me at all. To apper: Just don't make friends with all the people at your local T14s beforehand. They will try to mess with your resolve.

Also, dresden is lovely. She would never speak ill of anyone (unless perhaps they truly deserved it.)

[apper123]

How hard is it to find friends and social groups as a transfer 2L? I mean I know we're all there to study, but that's important to me.

First of all, the other transfer students are a good source.

Second, if you're still worried about being able to make friends in a new place in your mid-20s... I'm just about the most socially inept person ever (ask dresden for proof,) and even I have more social opportunities than I have time to spare. And I don't even really study much (at all, the past few weeks.)

I don't question my ability to make friends; I simply question how transfer students are viewed. I seem to remember a post in the grades thread where someone talked about how everyone at his/her school (don't remember who it was) looked down on them and thought they were stupid since they were a transfer. I'm just more concerned about the stigma...