Yale Class of 2013 Forum

[rabbit9198]

I have some questions regarding 1L summers. First, how has it been finding Big Law summer employment ITE for the current students? Second, what are the most prestigious ways of spending the 1L summer?

I can't give a wholly credible answer to this since I'm not a 1L and I think things have changed a bit (for good or bad) since hiring for last summer took place. That said, I think it's generally been the case that relatively few (maybe 20%) 1Ls work in private firms (mostly biglaw), and most of those are working in geographic areas (Texas, etc.) that traditionally hire 1Ls, special minority/diversity at law firm programs, or geographic areas where they have a strong personal connection. That is to say, it's relatively hard for 1Ls to get biglaw summer jobs, even at Yale. "It's the economy, stupid."

It's also true that most 1Ls don't want to work in private firms, or at least, want to spend their 1L summer doing something else. It's really common to work in USAO offices, at the DOJ, or in other government jobs. It's also popular to work overseas or for domestic nonprofits. A number of people also work in the law school's clinics or serve as research assistants for professors.

I would *strongly* caution against trying to rank 1L summer jobs as having different levels of prestige. Different people have different interests and choose to spend their summers in a variety of ways. Nobody I know has been hampered because of their choice of 1L job, so long as it was meaningful work (and, preferably, provides you with good references and a writing sample).

[rabbit9198]

Piggybacking onto Pausanias' question: How many firms from California (LA or SF) came to OCI this year? Do students typically have a difficult time finding employment in California (either BigLaw, clerkships [e.g. 9th Circuit], or PI)?

Without going back and counting, my answer would be "a lot." There were a good number of LA and SF (and other Silicon Valley/Menlo Park/Palo Alto) offices recruiting, and a good number (10? 12?) of 2Ls took jobs there for this coming summer. Most of those people already had CA or at least West Coast ties...but some did not. Firms (at least in this economy) seemed to want to know that you were going to CA because you really wanted to end up there semi-long term. The people going to the 9th Circuit next year (and there are, again, a good number) don't need to prove those geographic ties to the same degree (the 9th Circuit, generally but not entirely, doesn't demand it - they trust you want to go there because they're prestigious, etc.). A number of PI folks are doing fellowships or have jobs in CA lined up for next year, too.

In short, people who want to be in California can do it without much problem. Do as many CA firms as NY firms come to Yale OCI? No. But my sense is that's more a matter of self-selection than anything else; if CA-minded people put in a bit of effort, they can pretty easily have job opportunities there.

[kalessebo]

Now that folks are submitting financial aid materials, does anyone have any tips about negotiating aid with YLS?

I've searched the boards, but almost all of the relevant threads exclude HYS, since they don't give out merit aid. I have heard here and there, though, that YLS will adjust financial aid offers for prospective students with Hamiltons, Darrows, etc.

Tinman is basically right, except that H won't necessarily match S and Y. I got not insignificant need-based aid from Y, which pushed S to match (from $0 to about 1/3 tuition), but when I asked H about bumping my $0 up to something reasonable in light of the other offers (including a Hamilton and the NYU Furman, btw) they said, flat out, "We don't take other offers into account when calculating..."

As for LGBT faculty, Eskridge is the obvious answer. You might also look into the LGBT clinic (http://www.law.yale.edu/stuorgs/LGBTclinic.htm), which (from what I gather) is gaining steam this semester.

And to add to what rabbit said, 1Ls generally don't want to work at a firm. The money and prestige (and interesting work, one would hope!) will be there next year. This year is about doing something different, interesting, fun. My small group prof told me to go back to Africa. A family friend who's at a firm spent half the summer working on a boat in the Caribbean. Thinks that'd be a great idea still. I'm dubious, but it's an idea. Generally, there are some things that 1Ls (who don't know much) think are more prestigious - DOJ (and there's a hierarchy within that), US Attorneys in the big cities, etc., but as rabbit said, I think it all comes out the same in the end as long as you have something interesting to say about your experience and build relationships while there. All of this being said, some people are getting sweet firm gigs - several firms, including at least one top DC office, came to the Spring Interview Program specifically to interview 1Ls.

[dueprocess14]

My experience negotiating financial aid at YHS was similar - Y and S would match each other's need-based offers, but H wouldn't budge and none of them would consider merit-based scholarships. For me, the deciding factor (at least on that front) was Yale's significantly sweeter deal on the back end. COAP simply is not matchable by any other school.

[naruhodo]

Thanks for all the info, tinman, kalessebo, and zagababe! I'm pretty anxious to receive my financial aid offer from YLS, and I'm hoping they'll show some pity on my poor soul.

[duodora]

Thanks for all the info, tinman, kalessebo, and zagababe! I'm pretty anxious to receive my financial aid offer from YLS, and I'm hoping they'll show some pity on my poor soul.

I couldn't agree more! I submitted the FAFSA/NeedAccess almost 3 weeks ago--and we're supposed to find out aid in 3-4 weeks from submitting the forms. *keeping fingers crossed* I haven't heard from Stanford and didn't apply to Harvard--so I have less than nothing in terms of bargaining power!

[dueprocess14]

Thanks for all the info, tinman, kalessebo, and zagababe! I'm pretty anxious to receive my financial aid offer from YLS, and I'm hoping they'll show some pity on my poor soul.

I couldn't agree more! I submitted the FAFSA/NeedAccess almost 3 weeks ago--and we're supposed to find out aid in 3-4 weeks from submitting the forms. *keeping fingers crossed* I haven't heard from Stanford and didn't apply to Harvard--so I have less than nothing in terms of bargaining power!

I'm sure it varies on a case by case basis, but in my experience the woman at YLS was incredibly helpful, really kind, and basically said that YLS wanted to ensure no one would turn it down for financial reasons (with the combination of their assistance with financial aid, summer help, and COAP post-graduation). They also kindly matched my (better) SLS offer which helped make my decision. Good luck!

[aad]

I got a very simple question: how long does it generally take for the acceptance letter and materials to arrive after the initial phone call?

I've been reading the binder materials on my computer as a PDF but it would be great to have a hard copy... but I'm not sure if I want to print 250 pages on my small printer.

[BioEBear2010]

I got a very simple question: how long does it generally take for the acceptance letter and materials to arrive after the initial phone call?

I've been reading the binder materials on my computer as a PDF but it would be great to have a hard copy... but I'm not sure if I want to print 250 pages on my small printer.

I got mine within a week of the phone call. The mug and handwritten note came about a month later (although I was called right before winter break, so the timing for the mug + note may be off).

[lawyering]

I got a very simple question: how long does it generally take for the acceptance letter and materials to arrive after the initial phone call?

I've been reading the binder materials on my computer as a PDF but it would be great to have a hard copy... but I'm not sure if I want to print 250 pages on my small printer.

I got mine within a week of the phone call. The mug and handwritten note came about a month later (although I was called right before winter break, so the timing for the mug + note may be off).

I was accepted Sunday, and got my binder yesterday (Wednesday). Still looking forward to the mug and note!

[clyde_barrow]

accepted today. excited beyond words. i'm sure i'll have a bunch of questions for current students in the coming weeks, but i just wanted to the this post up while the feeling was still raw.

[Ranita]

Rabbit,

You wrote in your blog that:

“We are still, yes, very blessed and relatively insulated from the economic downturn. But there are 2Ls who didn't get jobs through OCI (gasp!).”

As one who is risk averse, I’m kinda surprised to hear about Yalies not getting SA offers for their 2L summer. What would result in someone finding themselves in this scenario: No clinics, no journals, no High Passes, a transcript full of The Book of Job and 17th Century Conceptions of Fairness classes, and a 1L summer of hula-hoop training?

[rabbit9198]

Rabbit,

You wrote in your blog that:

“We are still, yes, very blessed and relatively insulated from the economic downturn. But there are 2Ls who didn't get jobs through OCI (gasp!).”

As one who is risk averse, I’m kinda surprised to hear about Yalies not getting SA offers for their 2L summer. What would result in someone finding themselves in this scenario: No clinics, no journals, no High Passes, a transcript full of The Book of Job and 17th Century Conceptions of Fairness classes, and a 1L summer of hula-hoop training?

To be clear, the number of 2Ls who didn't get any SA offers out of OCI (we call it FIP - the Fall Interview Program) was relatively small - I'd say certainly in the single digits - and almost certainly Yalies were as well or better off than students at any other school. [It should also be noted that lots of students, especially those who are public-interest focused, didn't even participate in FIP, or did so halfheartedly, so they may skew somewhat the official "didn't get jobs through FIP" number.]

I would say the people who didn't get jobs were generally competing in the hardest markets this year (basically, DC and California) and may not have bid for as many firms as, in hindsight, they should have. At least from the handful of cases I know of, there was no clear pattern of grades or activities or lack thereof that caused people not to get job offers. This year was basically an outlier as far as the market for SA hiring goes, and it was hard to predict how many firms (and of what caliber of selectivity) one should bid on. Many of these people eventually did get jobs in the markets they were interested in, through direct contact with firms or interviews that happened later in the year (after our mid-August FIP, when some firms weren't yet prepared to do all of their hiring). The CDO made a big push to help those people who didn't get the "automatic" jobs provided through the ease of the FIP process; nobody who asked for help was left out in the cold.

You're right to be asking tough job-related questions, even at Yale. I guess what I mean to convey is that I'm, personally, very risk-averse, too, and I can't imagine a more risk-cushioning place than YLS. Still, nobody should assume that going to Yale (or, ahem, any other top school: --LinkRemoved--) will lead to an automatic cushy corporate law - or any other - job.

[Pausanias]

I have a question for current students. I was wondering what it usually takes to get an "H" in a given class. I recognize that this is a difficult question to answer, since it is always up to the professor of the class, and every class is probably different. But it would be very helpful if you could either generalize your experiences, or even give an example of a certain class and what it took there to get an "H". Thanks!

[catwoman]

I have a question for current students. I was wondering what it usually takes to get an "H" in a given class. I recognize that this is a difficult question to answer, since it is always up to the professor of the class, and every class is probably different. But it would be very helpful if you could either generalize your experiences, or even give an example of a certain class and what it took there to get an "H". Thanks!

Just going to throw this out there - it's not like there are grades the first semester anyway. There will be plenty of time to figure out what we need to do in law school to get the places we want to go (whether clerkship, firm, public interest, etc.) Why not just enjoy the last few months of life as a 0L and not worry about competing just yet?

[caved]

Just going to throw this out there - it's not like there are grades the first semester anyway. There will be plenty of time to figure out what we need to do in law school to get the places we want to go (whether clerkship, firm, public interest, etc.) Why not just enjoy the last few months of life as a 0L and not worry about competing just yet?

On that note, let's turn (back?) to something worth worrying about right now (or very soon at least): Housing. Have people committed/likely to commit to Yale started thinking about where they wanna live? What are ya'll thinking? Studio/One-bedroom? Try to find a roommate via facebook group? Try to find a roommate over the ASW? Know someone already who you're going to live with?

[duodora]

Just going to throw this out there - it's not like there are grades the first semester anyway. There will be plenty of time to figure out what we need to do in law school to get the places we want to go (whether clerkship, firm, public interest, etc.) Why not just enjoy the last few months of life as a 0L and not worry about competing just yet?

On that note, let's turn (back?) to something worth worrying about right now (or very soon at least): Housing. Have people committed/likely to commit to Yale started thinking about where they wanna live? What are ya'll thinking? Studio/One-bedroom? Try to find a roommate via facebook group? Try to find a roommate over the ASW? Know someone already who you're going to live with?

Here's what I was thinking w/ the fb group--I don't want to commit to Yale until I visit, and I bet other people are in the same boat. I was wondering if through the fb group it might make sense to arrange a "roommates wanted" get together after the ASW (like friday evening or something...I'm not sure when our scheduled activities end). That way people could split up from there into the different housing arrangements they wanted...

What does anyone think of that? I could put it on the fb group (so much for TLS anonymity)

[tomhobbes]

I have a question: how expansive and up to date is the movie collection at the library? Also, I've heard that the free food has been affected by the budget cuts. Is that likely to improve next year? How much of it's pizza? Is the pizza particularly good?

Umm... also, how's the LRAP and stuff?

[thepolynomial]

I have a question: how expansive and up to date is the movie collection at the library? Also, I've heard that the free food has been affected by the budget cuts. Is that likely to improve next year? How much of it's pizza? Is the pizza particularly good?

These are excellent questions! The movie collection is quite good, although according to one friend, someone's had season 3 of The Wire out for the entire year. I'm sitting next to the DVDs right now, so if you have any specific requests in the next half hour or so, I can see if they're there. The free food has indeed been affected by budget cuts, although our fearless student reps have managed to bring back a less extravagant version of the famous Friday happy hours. And student groups don't have quite the freedom with food for meetings that they once did -- food generally has to come from the dining hall now, unless the group has its own funding source (yay, Fed Soc events). When the dining hall supplies pizza, it's not very good...the dining hall does many things very well (hot lunch, wraps, cookies), but pizza isn't one of them.

On the "what does it take to get an H?" question: Depending on the professor, it takes putting more/better stuff on your exam than 50-75% of your classmates. In my experience, this takes 3 - 5 days of studying and a semester of doing the reading and paying reasonably good attention in class. Your mileage may vary.

[tomhobbes]

I have a question: how expansive and up to date is the movie collection at the library? Also, I've heard that the free food has been affected by the budget cuts. Is that likely to improve next year? How much of it's pizza? Is the pizza particularly good?

These are excellent questions! The movie collection is quite good, although according to one friend, someone's had season 3 of The Wire out for the entire year. I'm sitting next to the DVDs right now, so if you have any specific requests in the next half hour or so, I can see if they're there. The free food has indeed been affected by budget cuts, although our fearless student reps have managed to bring back a less extravagant version of the famous Friday happy hours. And student groups don't have quite the freedom with food for meetings that they once did -- food generally has to come from the dining hall now, unless the group has its own funding source (yay, Fed Soc events). When the dining hall supplies pizza, it's not very good...the dining hall does many things very well (hot lunch, wraps, cookies), but pizza isn't one of them.

On the "what does it take to get an H?" question: Depending on the professor, it takes putting more/better stuff on your exam than 50-75% of your classmates. In my experience, this takes 3 - 5 days of studying and a semester of doing the reading and paying reasonably good attention in class. Your mileage may vary.

That's awesome, I was actually going to ask if they had The Wire there. I haven't had any luck finding it anywhere else, so that's one reason to go to Yale. Can you tell me more about the dining hall? What's the quality comparable to? What student organizations are best to join for free food?

[caved]

Just going to throw this out there - it's not like there are grades the first semester anyway. There will be plenty of time to figure out what we need to do in law school to get the places we want to go (whether clerkship, firm, public interest, etc.) Why not just enjoy the last few months of life as a 0L and not worry about competing just yet?

On that note, let's turn (back?) to something worth worrying about right now (or very soon at least): Housing. Have people committed/likely to commit to Yale started thinking about where they wanna live? What are ya'll thinking? Studio/One-bedroom? Try to find a roommate via facebook group? Try to find a roommate over the ASW? Know someone already who you're going to live with?

Here's what I was thinking w/ the fb group--I don't want to commit to Yale until I visit, and I bet other people are in the same boat. I was wondering if through the fb group it might make sense to arrange a "roommates wanted" get together after the ASW (like friday evening or something...I'm not sure when our scheduled activities end). That way people could split up from there into the different housing arrangements they wanted...

What does anyone think of that? I could put it on the fb group (so much for TLS anonymity)

I think I might just end up trying to get a studio haha. But if you did that I'd definitely give it some serious consideration!

On a separate but related note, can anyone in New Haven tell me about some good storage facilities in the area? I'm going overseas for the summer, so going need to move all my stuff up a few months before I can actually move in.

[BioEBear2010]

That's awesome, I was actually going to ask if they had The Wire there. I haven't had any luck finding it anywhere else, so that's one reason to go to Yale. Can you tell me more about the dining hall? What's the quality comparable to? What student organizations are best to join for free food?

I'm currently watching season 4 of The Wire. What an awesome show.

And fwiw I had the best chicken wrap of my life at the dining hall. From what I've heard, though, most people eat off campus. There is so much great food in New Haven (still not as good as Berkeley, though )

[clyde_barrow]

I'm currently watching season 4 of The Wire. What an awesome show.

And fwiw I had the best chicken wrap of my life at the dining hall. From what I've heard, though, most people eat off campus. There is so much great food in New Haven (still not as good as Berkeley, though )

s4 is grrreat (as they all are), but i'm not sure it tops s3, personally. also, excellent to hear new haven has good food options!
can anyone speak to the quality of the gym? do law students use it much?

[kalessebo]

To answer a recent question, you definitely don't have to join student groups to take advantage of the free food. Almost everyday there's some interesting lunchtime talk put on by FedSoc, ACS, one of the journals, etc., they're open to the whole law school community, and there is almost always food. As for the quality of the food, I can't compare to last year since I'm a 1L, but it's been pretty good in my opinion. Sure, pizza gets kind of tiresome, but I actually don't think the dining hall pizza is all that bad. Certainly better than whatever godawful concoction I'd bring if I tried to make lunch for myself. And often events will be sponsored by organizations with outside funding (FedSoc, the Journal, or, say, an academic center that gets support from a firm) and we get the good stuff - burritos, paninis, etc. While I think you're all right not to be thinking too much about the details of next year yet, one piece of information you might want to remember is that that lunchtime events featuring private sector stuff - "careers in consulting," "international law at big firms," etc. - tend to have the best food.

As for LRAP and stuff, suffice to say it is incredible and a good enough reason in and of itself to come here. You could make $100,000, for example, working in a nonlegal, private sector job and they'd still pay off some of your loans!

[caved]

Hey, does anyone know if you are still invited to the ASW, eligible for travel reimbursement, etc., if you've already sent in your deposit?