Serving Time in Ithaca (Cornell 2013) Forum

[Jericwithers]

I called this morning to ask about when the Dean's Scholarship recipients will be notified and the lady on the phone said over the next few weeks was all that she could tell me

Some of those decisions have already been made. If you are visiting I would recommend talking to the financial aid people while you are there.

[Dignan]

I called this morning to ask about when the Dean's Scholarship recipients will be notified and the lady on the phone said over the next few weeks was all that she could tell me

I just learned that I've been awarded a Dean's Scholarship. The letter, dated, March 3, came via snail mail. I'm in California.

[dakatz]

I called this morning to ask about when the Dean's Scholarship recipients will be notified and the lady on the phone said over the next few weeks was all that she could tell me

I just learned that I've been awarded a Dean's Scholarship. The letter, dated, March 3, came via snail mail. I'm in California.

Damn, I'd go for the "take the money and run" approach the second I got the letter. Congrats.

[Jericwithers]

I called this morning to ask about when the Dean's Scholarship recipients will be notified and the lady on the phone said over the next few weeks was all that she could tell me

I just learned that I've been awarded a Dean's Scholarship. The letter, dated, March 3, came via snail mail. I'm in California.

With your other really great acceptances I'm sure that is a hard choice to make. Congrats.

[johndh]

Got the Dean's Scholarship as well. That makes my decision a lot harder. Congrats Dignan! Do you have any idea what you're going to do at this point? 120,000 at a t14 is hard to pass up

[Dignan]

Got the Dean's Scholarship as well. That makes my decision a lot harder. Congrats Dignan! Do you have any idea what you're going to do at this point? 120,000 at a t14 is hard to pass up

I'm not sure what I am going to do. Up until this point, I was thinking that my decision would come down to Columbia versus Berkeley. But, as you say, it's tough to turn down $120K from an excellent school.

If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now, I would probably choose CLS, even at sticker. There's little question in my mind that CLS gives you advantages, in almost all possible careers in the law, over Cornell. Are those advantages worth $120K? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to think so. Anyway, I definitely need to think about this some more.

[dakatz]

Got the Dean's Scholarship as well. That makes my decision a lot harder. Congrats Dignan! Do you have any idea what you're going to do at this point? 120,000 at a t14 is hard to pass up

I'm not sure what I am going to do. Up until this point, I was thinking that my decision would come down to Columbia versus Berkeley. But, as you say, it's tough to turn down $120K from an excellent school.

If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now, I would probably choose CLS, even at sticker. There's little question in my mind that CLS gives you advantages, in almost all possible careers in the law, over Cornell. Are those advantages worth $120K? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to think so. Anyway, I definitely need to think about this some more.

A tutor I once had got into Columbia at sticker price, and went to UVA instead on a 40K scholarship. Yet, he had full scholarship offers from Georgetown and Cornell. He says his biggest regret isn't taking a full tuition scholarship and graduating with no debt. And this is coming from someone who had no prob getting a biglaw job upon graduation. Just sayin.

[como]

Got the Dean's Scholarship as well. That makes my decision a lot harder. Congrats Dignan! Do you have any idea what you're going to do at this point? 120,000 at a t14 is hard to pass up

I'm not sure what I am going to do. Up until this point, I was thinking that my decision would come down to Columbia versus Berkeley. But, as you say, it's tough to turn down $120K from an excellent school.

If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now, I would probably choose CLS, even at sticker. There's little question in my mind that CLS gives you advantages, in almost all possible careers in the law, over Cornell. Are those advantages worth $120K? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to think so. Anyway, I definitely need to think about this some more.

A tutor I once had got into Columbia at sticker price, and went to UVA instead on a 40K scholarship. Yet, he had full scholarship offers from Georgetown and Cornell. He says his biggest regret isn't taking a full tuition scholarship and graduating with no debt. And this is coming from someone who had no prob getting a biglaw job upon graduation. Just sayin.

This is definitely the credited choice. If it were down to a $50K difference or something, it might be worth it to be in the city. Don't underestimate the sheer debt that you will run into. Biglaw is not as big as it used to be, and nothing is a sure shot anymore.

[Dignan]

Got the Dean's Scholarship as well. That makes my decision a lot harder. Congrats Dignan! Do you have any idea what you're going to do at this point? 120,000 at a t14 is hard to pass up

I'm not sure what I am going to do. Up until this point, I was thinking that my decision would come down to Columbia versus Berkeley. But, as you say, it's tough to turn down $120K from an excellent school.

If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now, I would probably choose CLS, even at sticker. There's little question in my mind that CLS gives you advantages, in almost all possible careers in the law, over Cornell. Are those advantages worth $120K? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to think so. Anyway, I definitely need to think about this some more.

A tutor I once had got into Columbia at sticker price, and went to UVA instead on a 40K scholarship. Yet, he had full scholarship offers from Georgetown and Cornell. He says his biggest regret isn't taking a full tuition scholarship and graduating with no debt. And this is coming from someone who had no prob getting a biglaw job upon graduation. Just sayin.

This is definitely the credited choice. If it were down to a $50K difference or something, it might be worth it to be in the city. Don't underestimate the sheer debt that you will run into. Biglaw is not as big as it used to be, and nothing is a sure shot anymore.

Indeed it is not. But isn't that all the more reason to go to the best school you can get into? It sure seems like CLS grads do a lot better--and have more national mobility--than do Cornell grads. When the market is bad, those advantages seem especially important.

I'm not trying to minimize the drag of debt. It's a significant concern for me; it's the main reason that I am even considering Cornell over CLS and Berkeley. On the other hand, I think it's important to avoid a "if you're in the T14, you're good" mentality. With respect to job opportunities for graduates, there are significant differences between the T6 and the lower T14.

[Jericwithers]

Got the Dean's Scholarship as well. That makes my decision a lot harder. Congrats Dignan! Do you have any idea what you're going to do at this point? 120,000 at a t14 is hard to pass up

I'm not sure what I am going to do. Up until this point, I was thinking that my decision would come down to Columbia versus Berkeley. But, as you say, it's tough to turn down $120K from an excellent school.

If you put a gun to my head and made me choose right now, I would probably choose CLS, even at sticker. There's little question in my mind that CLS gives you advantages, in almost all possible careers in the law, over Cornell. Are those advantages worth $120K? I'm not sure, but I'm inclined to think so. Anyway, I definitely need to think about this some more.

A tutor I once had got into Columbia at sticker price, and went to UVA instead on a 40K scholarship. Yet, he had full scholarship offers from Georgetown and Cornell. He says his biggest regret isn't taking a full tuition scholarship and graduating with no debt. And this is coming from someone who had no prob getting a biglaw job upon graduation. Just sayin.

At the ASW there was a guy who went to Cornell with a big scholarship instead of better choices like Columbia, but he regretted that decision. I think you need to check out both schools and see which you would enjoy more, and then see which fits your idea of a good career.

[como]

This is definitely the credited choice. If it were down to a $50K difference or something, it might be worth it to be in the city. Don't underestimate the sheer debt that you will run into. Biglaw is not as big as it used to be, and nothing is a sure shot anymore.

Indeed it is not. But isn't that all the more reason to go to the best school you can get into? It sure seems like CLS grads do a lot better--and have more national mobility--than do Cornell grads. When the market is bad, those advantages seem especially important.

I'm not trying to minimize the drag of debt. It's a significant concern for me; it's the main reason that I am even considering Cornell over CLS and Berkeley. On the other hand, I think it's important to avoid a "if you're in the T14, you're good" mentality. With respect to job opportunities for graduates, there are significant differences between the T6 and the lower T14.

Let's say that top 1/4 (.25) of Cornell is getting market and top 3/4 (.75) at CLS does. These might be fairly conservative, but I just want to be fair.

If you're getting $120K from Cornell, let's say that you have to shell out like $70K yourself. CLS is probably comparable, so let's say it's $190K sticker.

Cornell analysis
$160K * .25 = 40K (represents the expected cashflow)
Less $70K = (30K)

Columbia analysis
$160K *.75 = 120K
Less $190K = (70K)

There are a ton of variables that would yield different results. If the other 1/4 at CLS makes 135K or something whereas the other 3/4 at Cornell are unemployed, that would certainly have a huge impact on a decision. Furthermore, let's say that partnership opportunities are far greater at CLS than at Cornell (they probably are). Future cash-flows after the first-year would be discounted and factored into the net present value.

I'm not trying to skew the results, because I could really care less which school you choose. I just want to put the word out there to 0Ls -- treat this financial decision with great care. This is probably the biggest financial decision you have made, and probably will make in the next 5-10 years. You should apply a real cost-benefit analysis. The problem is: law schools are not super transparent and like to put a rosy patina on their stats. It's really hard to know what kind of numbers you're working with.

Having a dean's scholarship does give you a great resume boost when applying to 1L jobs. Being in NYC does have certain intangible benefits too though. Interviewing becomes much easier and, let's face it, CLS is a great name.

Good luck. You've got a tough decision, but great options.

[Dignan]

Good luck. You've got a tough decision, but great options.

Thank you for the excellent analysis. And thanks to everyone for their opinions. I think there are several different ways to look at this choice, and I appreciate the varying perspectives.

[dudester]

This is definitely the credited choice. If it were down to a $50K difference or something, it might be worth it to be in the city. Don't underestimate the sheer debt that you will run into. Biglaw is not as big as it used to be, and nothing is a sure shot anymore.

Indeed it is not. But isn't that all the more reason to go to the best school you can get into? It sure seems like CLS grads do a lot better--and have more national mobility--than do Cornell grads. When the market is bad, those advantages seem especially important.

I'm not trying to minimize the drag of debt. It's a significant concern for me; it's the main reason that I am even considering Cornell over CLS and Berkeley. On the other hand, I think it's important to avoid a "if you're in the T14, you're good" mentality. With respect to job opportunities for graduates, there are significant differences between the T6 and the lower T14.

Let's say that top 1/4 (.25) of Cornell is getting market and top 3/4 (.75) at CLS does. These might be fairly conservative, but I just want to be fair.

If you're getting $120K from Cornell, let's say that you have to shell out like $70K yourself. CLS is probably comparable, so let's say it's $190K sticker.

Cornell analysis
$160K * .25 = 40K (represents the expected cashflow)
Less $70K = (30K)

Columbia analysis
$160K *.75 = 120K
Less $190K = (70K)

There are a ton of variables that would yield different results. If the other 1/4 at CLS makes 135K or something whereas the other 3/4 at Cornell are unemployed, that would certainly have a huge impact on a decision. Furthermore, let's say that partnership opportunities are far greater at CLS than at Cornell (they probably are). Future cash-flows after the first-year would be discounted and factored into the net present value.

I'm not trying to skew the results, because I could really care less which school you choose. I just want to put the word out there to 0Ls -- treat this financial decision with great care. This is probably the biggest financial decision you have made, and probably will make in the next 5-10 years. You should apply a real cost-benefit analysis. The problem is: law schools are not super transparent and like to put a rosy patina on their stats. It's really hard to know what kind of numbers you're working with.

Having a dean's scholarship does give you a great resume boost when applying to 1L jobs. Being in NYC does have certain intangible benefits too though. Interviewing becomes much easier and, let's face it, CLS is a great name.

Good luck. You've got a tough decision, but great options.

Those assumptions are anything but conservative.

Class of 2009 NLJ 250 hiring:
2. Columbia Law School (54.4)
14. Cornell (41.5)

Class of 2005 NJL 250 hiring:
2. Columbia Law School (60%)
9. Cornell Law School (53%)

Done correctly, that simple analysis should unequivocally point to Cornell as being the right choice.

[Dignan]

Those assumptions are anything but conservative.

Class of 2009 NLJ 250 hiring:
2. Columbia Law School (54.4)
14. Cornell (41.5)

Class of 2005 NJL 250 hiring:
2. Columbia Law School (60%)
9. Cornell Law School (53%)

Done correctly, that simple analysis should unequivocally point to Cornell as being the right choice.

But why is the NLJ250 the "correct" metric? The NLJ250 represents a broad swath of law jobs. There is a significant difference--with respect to salary, prestige, and future job opportunities--between the top of that list and the bottom. I've seen data that suggests that CLS places much better than Cornell into elite firms. The following is from four years ago. Although the absolute numbers would be lower in today's economy, I suspect that the relative differences would remain.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

[dudester]

Those assumptions are anything but conservative.

Class of 2009 NLJ 250 hiring:
2. Columbia Law School (54.4)
14. Cornell (41.5)

Class of 2005 NJL 250 hiring:
2. Columbia Law School (60%)
9. Cornell Law School (53%)

Done correctly, that simple analysis should unequivocally point to Cornell as being the right choice.

But why is the NLJ250 the "correct" metric? The NLJ250 represents a broad swath of law jobs. There is a significant difference--with respect to salary, prestige, and future job opportunities--between the top of that list and the bottom. I've seen data that suggests that CLS places much better than Cornell into elite firms. The following is from four years ago. Although the absolute numbers would be lower in today's economy, I suspect that the relative differences would remain.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/

I didn't say NLJ 250 placement is the correct metric, so I'm not sure why you purport to have quoted me. I'm not one to get involved in debates online, so here goes my final post on this topic.

Again, I believe that saying that the "top 1/4 (.25) of Cornell is getting market and top 3/4 (.75) at CLS does" and that "the other 1/4 at CLS makes 135K or something whereas the other 3/4 at Cornell are unemployed" are neither conservative nor reasonable assumptions. Mind you, going to Cornell would still be the best decision even if you stand a 75% chance of being unemployed after graduation... (EDIT: This is based on the original decision tree, which only seems to consider your position immediately after graduation. Getting paid $135,000 is obviously better than being unemployed...before someone feels the need to point it out.)

There is a significant difference--with respect to salary, prestige, and future job opportunities--between the top of that list and the bottom.

As far as I know, we're comparing Cornell and CLS, not the top and the bottom of that list.

I've seen data that suggests that CLS places much better than Cornell into elite firms.

You can base your decision on the likelihood of getting hired by an "elite" firm -whatever your definition of that is- coming out of Cornell and CLS. If I recall correctly, como made his analysis based on your chances of landing a big law job with market pay not of getting hired by a V5 firm.

[Dignan]

I didn't say NLJ 250 placement is the correct metric, so I'm not sure why you purport to have quoted me. I'm not one to get involved in debates online, so here goes my final post on this topic.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. For the record, my goal is not to get into a flame war or a pointless debate. I am trying to understand the different points that people are making; I appreciate you clarifying your thoughts.

There is a significant difference--with respect to salary, prestige, and future job opportunities--between the top of that list and the bottom.

As far as I know, we're comparing Cornell and CLS, not the top and the bottom of that list.

Right. But the link I quoted seems to suggest that Cornell tends to place more towards the bottom half of the list while CLS tends to place in the top half. If you (or anyone else) has better data on this, it would be cool to see it.

I've seen data that suggests that CLS places much better than Cornell into elite firms.

You can base your decision on the likelihood of getting hired by an "elite" firm -whatever your definition of that is- coming out of Cornell and CLS. If I recall correctly, como made his analysis based on your chances of landing a big law job with market pay not of getting hired by a V5 firm.

But it's not just the V5. In the link I posted (which, to be fair, is just for SA jobs), CLS places twice as well as Cornell all the way down to the V100 level.

Again, I'm not responding just for the sake of debate. If people have data--or even just anecdotes--that suggest that the differences between Cornell and CLS are not as great as some seem to believe, I would like to hear about them.

[como]

I didn't say NLJ 250 placement is the correct metric, so I'm not sure why you purport to have quoted me. I'm not one to get involved in debates online, so here goes my final post on this topic.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. For the record, my goal is not to get into a flame war or a pointless debate. I am trying to understand the different points that people are making; I appreciate you clarifying your thoughts.

There is a significant difference--with respect to salary, prestige, and future job opportunities--between the top of that list and the bottom.

As far as I know, we're comparing Cornell and CLS, not the top and the bottom of that list.

Right. But the link I quoted seems to suggest that Cornell tends to place more towards the bottom half of the list while CLS tends to place in the top half. If you (or anyone else) has better data on this, it would be cool to see it.

I've seen data that suggests that CLS places much better than Cornell into elite firms.

You can base your decision on the likelihood of getting hired by an "elite" firm -whatever your definition of that is- coming out of Cornell and CLS. If I recall correctly, como made his analysis based on your chances of landing a big law job with market pay not of getting hired by a V5 firm.

But it's not just the V5. In the link I posted (which, to be fair, is just for SA jobs), CLS places twice as well as Cornell all the way down to the V100 level.

Again, I'm not responding just for the sake of debate. If people have data--or even just anecdotes--that suggest that the differences between Cornell and CLS are not as great as some seem to believe, I would like to hear about them.

If you're taking anecdotes, here goes:

I can tell you that all the 3Ls I know (maybe 10 or so) have pretty awesome jobs lined up [V10 to CoA clerkships], although, fwiw, probably half of those people are on law review. I haven't heard any 3L woes, but that brings me to the current 2Ls. For the most part, they did not fare so well...

I've heard of dean's list people (top 30%) on journals who had no luck by the new year. I heard that roughly 1/4 got SA gigs (and law review pretty much goes to 1/5 of the class, between grade-ons and write-ons). There may have been considerably more 2Ls that are doing some cool PI work, but I'm not sure. These are just the horror stories that trickled down to my class. I don't know many 2Ls, but the consensus was -- last year sucked. Even firms coming to wine and dine the 1L class admit that the 2Ls got a tough break. They 'say' things look different this year and for their firm, but I am weary of their representations.

So far, almost everyone I know in the 1L class (and I know a large percentage of the class, or at least get their feeds on fb) has been getting some pretty great 1L summer gigs. SA jobs were pretty much out of the picture, but I do know a guy splitting a summer with a well-paying firm in a smaller market and a district judge. I can't really count on two hands the number of people interning in chambers of district judges, one person I know is doing DoJ, a handful working in various US Attorneys offices, some state attorney generals' offices, a few prestigious federal regulation gigs in DC, and a bunch are doing interesting PI stuff or research assistantships with professors. I'm not really sure what peoples' grades were, but the sheer number of people with jobs necessarily implies a large proportion of the class. Things look slightly better, but our class is still scared.

Hope that paints a little bit of a candid picture.

[fsohn]

If you're taking anecdotes, here goes:

I can tell you that all the 3Ls I know (maybe 10 or so) have pretty awesome jobs lined up [V10 to CoA clerkships], although, fwiw, probably half of those people are on law review. I haven't heard any 3L woes, but that brings me to the current 2Ls. For the most part, they did not fare so well...

I've heard of dean's list people (top 30%) on journals who had no luck by the new year. I heard that roughly 1/4 got SA gigs (and law review pretty much goes to 1/5 of the class, between grade-ons and write-ons). There may have been considerably more 2Ls that are doing some cool PI work, but I'm not sure. These are just the horror stories that trickled down to my class. I don't know many 2Ls, but the consensus was -- last year sucked. Even firms coming to wine and dine the 1L class admit that the 2Ls got a tough break. They 'say' things look different this year and for their firm, but I am weary of their representations.

So far, almost everyone I know in the 1L class (and I know a large percentage of the class, or at least get their feeds on fb) has been getting some pretty great 1L summer gigs. SA jobs were pretty much out of the picture, but I do know a guy splitting a summer with a well-paying firm in a smaller market and a district judge. I can't really count on two hands the number of people interning in chambers of district judges, one person I know is doing DoJ, a handful working in various US Attorneys offices, some state attorney generals' offices, a few prestigious federal regulation gigs in DC, and a bunch are doing interesting PI stuff or research assistantships with professors. I'm not really sure what peoples' grades were, but the sheer number of people with jobs necessarily implies a large proportion of the class. Things look slightly better, but our class is still scared.

Hope that paints a little bit of a candid picture.

Frankly, except for the very PI-minded amongst us 2Ls, no amount of "coolness" in PI work makes up for the $25K+ difference between summer PI funding and SA salaries. Not to mention the basically permanent boot from Big Law that we've gotten, significantly reducing the future value of our JDs.

Lesson: law school sucks. Don't come unless you want to spend your time reading bizarre cases about useless crap to have it all stack up to 150K in debt with a functionally useless degree that earns you no more than any undergrad with a BA in economics.

[/bitter rant against law school]

[sheltron5000]

of course, fsohn is the resident cynic.

I've heard a few depressing rants from 2Ls about how awful their hiring experience has been, but mostly that seems to be about how hard it is to get BIGlaw in NYC. But most of the 3Ls seem to have dealt with it OK, or at least accepted the situation.

Our year (2012), should be in a slightly better position as the economy recovers (::fingers crossed::) and 2013 might even be back to normal (note that normal is ~2001 post-dotcom hiring, not 2006 inflated financial market hiring).

At any rate the point is biglaw might or might not be there, no matter where you go to school. I chose Cornell over Chicago partly on the money, but mostly because after coming to visit, I knew that I would be happy here. (and I am). For me at least, personal happiness is the single most important factor for a) doing the work to get good grades and b) not getting depressed about jobs.

[going back to the Ks reading I still have to do, I swear I'll get it done before class... ]

[como]

of course, fsohn is the resident cynic.

I've heard a few depressing rants from 2Ls about how awful their hiring experience has been, but mostly that seems to be about how hard it is to get BIGlaw in NYC. But most of the 3Ls seem to have dealt with it OK, or at least accepted the situation.

Our year (2012), should be in a slightly better position as the economy recovers (::fingers crossed::) and 2013 might even be back to normal (note that normal is ~2001 post-dotcom hiring, not 2006 inflated financial market hiring).

At any rate the point is biglaw might or might not be there, no matter where you go to school. I chose Cornell over Chicago partly on the money, but mostly because after coming to visit, I knew that I would be happy here. (and I am). For me at least, personal happiness is the single most important factor for a) doing the work to get good grades and b) not getting depressed about jobs.

[going back to the Ks reading I still have to do, I swear I'll get it done before class... ]

Lightning rarely strikes the same place twice...right?

[CyLaw]

LOL!

Just want to the Cornell Law School main page and saw the Andy Bernard ad. I love a school with a sense of humor.

[mbw]

of course, fsohn is the resident cynic.

I've heard a few depressing rants from 2Ls about how awful their hiring experience has been, but mostly that seems to be about how hard it is to get BIGlaw in NYC. But most of the 3Ls seem to have dealt with it OK, or at least accepted the situation.

Our year (2012), should be in a slightly better position as the economy recovers (::fingers crossed::) and 2013 might even be back to normal (note that normal is ~2001 post-dotcom hiring, not 2006 inflated financial market hiring).

At any rate the point is biglaw might or might not be there, no matter where you go to school. I chose Cornell over Chicago partly on the money, but mostly because after coming to visit, I knew that I would be happy here. (and I am). For me at least, personal happiness is the single most important factor for a) doing the work to get good grades and b) not getting depressed about jobs.

[going back to the Ks reading I still have to do, I swear I'll get it done before class... ]

Lightning rarely strikes the same place twice...right?

And...... You jinxed him. Although, in Shel's case, I think it's now four or five times...

[pjl35]

LOL!

Just want to the Cornell Law School main page and saw the Andy Bernard ad. I love a school with a sense of humor.

It's actually all over the place: http://www.cornellsun.com/node/41430 Post on the Cornell Daily Sun's website...apparently TMZ, Entertainment Weekly and several other places picked up on it. Idiotic move if you ask me....Andy only went there for undergrad anyway! He's got nothing to do with the law school.

[Jericwithers]

LOL!

Just want to the Cornell Law School main page and saw the Andy Bernard ad. I love a school with a sense of humor.

It's actually all over the place: http://www.cornellsun.com/node/41430 Post on the Cornell Daily Sun's website...apparently TMZ, Entertainment Weekly and several other places picked up on it. Idiotic move if you ask me....Andy only went there for undergrad anyway! He's got nothing to do with the law school.

I heard Duke Law is trying the same strategy with Tucker Max.

[CyLaw]

LOL!

Just want to the Cornell Law School main page and saw the Andy Bernard ad. I love a school with a sense of humor.

It's actually all over the place: http://www.cornellsun.com/node/41430 Post on the Cornell Daily Sun's website...apparently TMZ, Entertainment Weekly and several other places picked up on it. Idiotic move if you ask me....Andy only went there for undergrad anyway! He's got nothing to do with the law school.

I still find it funny. People need to lighten up, and I personally like administrators that can poke fun at something that others are already attributing to them. Andy may not have gone to the law school, but how many times has his avatar been used here in reference to Cornell.