Salary Reporting?

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OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:17 pm

nealric wrote:If you are wondering why doc review jobs are no good, read some stories from the following:
http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/

The big problems are:
You learn no skills
You get no benefits
You have no job security
You get no respect
You work in awful conditions


Oh, I believe absolutely that doc review is awful. Of course, that is my view of biglaw in general. Just let me have a decent job at a nonprofit doing something worthwhile, even if it pays $40k a year. Fordham won't be happy with me for having to report a salary like that, but they'll be able to note that I was not in private practice.

I often wonder whether schools actively encourage their top students (I have no idea, at present, where I will place in my class) who could get biglaw jobs to take them, for the sake of career stats. For example, if someone who graded onto Law Review at a school like mine elected to go work as a public defender, would the school attempt to make him or her reconsider? The standard view among Fordham students seems to be that getting biglaw from our school (especially now) is an honor, and like Law Review itself, it's an honor you don't turn down.

Just some musing of mine, I suppose, related to the concept of "you'll change your mind about that T14 transfer if you have the grades to get in."

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rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby rondemarino » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:22 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
nealric wrote:If you are wondering why doc review jobs are no good, read some stories from the following:
http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/

The big problems are:
You learn no skills
You get no benefits
You have no job security
You get no respect
You work in awful conditions


Oh, I believe absolutely that doc review is awful. Of course, that is my view of biglaw in general. Just let me have a decent job at a nonprofit doing something worthwhile, even if it pays $40k a year. Fordham won't be happy with me for having to report a salary like that, but they'll be able to note that I was not in private practice.

I often wonder whether schools actively encourage their top students (I have no idea, at present, where I will place in my class) who could get biglaw jobs to take them, for the sake of career stats. For example, if someone who graded onto Law Review at a school like mine elected to go work as a public defender, would the school attempt to make him or her reconsider? The standard view among Fordham students seems to be that getting biglaw from our school (especially now) is an honor, and like Law Review itself, it's an honor you don't turn down.

Just some musing of mine, I suppose, related to the concept of "you'll change your mind about that T14 transfer if you have the grades to get in."


They do. Its called debt. :D

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby Nom Sawyer » Mon Nov 30, 2009 3:23 pm

They do it by leading their top students into something like this:

Image

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:04 pm

SolarWind wrote:They do it by leading their top students into something like this:

Image


OK, I LOL'd, but not everyone (even those people like me, who will be in horrendous debt) is willing to take a biglaw job to pay it off, now that IBR and loan forgiveness exist. This goes double for people at schools with decent LRAPs. In the past, you guys would have been spot on, and many PI hopefuls still follow this line of thinking.

If I ever have a shot at a market paying job, and I decline to pursue it for any reason, will people think I've gone off the deep end? (Answer with the knowledge that I will owe well north of $200k by graduation.)

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rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby rondemarino » Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:13 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:OK, I LOL'd, but not everyone (even those people like me, who will be in horrendous debt) is willing to take a biglaw job to pay it off, now that IBR and loan forgiveness exist. This goes double for people at schools with decent LRAPs. In the past, you guys would have been spot on, and many PI hopefuls still follow this line of thinking.

If I ever have a shot at a market paying job, and I decline to pursue it for any reason, will people think I've gone off the deep end? (Answer with the knowledge that I will owe well north of $200k by graduation.)


We're assuming LRAPs aren't going be massacred by the employment situation? A tad wishful.

Also, I don't understand why you have to be well north of $200k by graduation. You are a PT student and presumably, a lot of PT students work during the school year to minimize their debt load. No?

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observationalist
Posts: 472
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby observationalist » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:58 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
As there have already been firms that have sent these 'deferred' associates packing, i think its hardly fair to call them 'employed.' That said, there will be no official rule on this and I'm sure the law schools will use this to their advantage and report them as employed, despite the fact that their jobs are far from certain to be there when the deferral period is over.


There actually is an official rule. NALP, the organization that compiles the 9-month graduate employment data, has instructed law schools to include deferred associate jobs, even if they haven't started as of the 9-month deadline.


*runs over to the Vandy website* Goodness me- 99% at graduation employment? I've seen enough research to be pretty well convinced that if Vandy says this, it is probably so, especially if the above mentioned NALP rule is in effect. I'm not making a judgment call about the morality here; I think it well might be fair to count deferred associates with $5k/month stipends as employed, as they are no worse off in the short term than their classmates making similar money at small firms (and there are probably a few, even at a school like Vandy). True, they seem to be a lot more vulnerable (though the small firm people could still be laid off quickly), so it would seem fairest to students to designate the percentage deferred.

Unexpected things can happen to the deferred, though. I met a member of the BLS class of 2009 (I told the rest of this story elsewhere, but it was one I won't soon forget.) This kid had accepted a full ride over a seat at Fordham or BU. Of course I thought he was out of his mind to gamble like that, but he won the gamble, came out top 5%, and was deferred from a V50 job. I asked what he was doing during his deferral (I also asked what his classmates were doing, and he answered, but I refuse to make this thread even more depressing.) Anyway, he was working for a well known environmental nonprofit (one of the coolest people on TLS once spent a summer there), and he loved it. I mean, would not stop raving about it, to the point where I questioned why in the hell he wanted the V50 job in the the first place, especially since he had no loans to repay (apart from CoL, I presume). I wished him well, and I hope his option to start there next year will remain, even if he does seem pretty happily deferred. If he did owe $220k, as I will, he could still take advantage of IBR/LRAP, but the picture would look a bit different, and it was unclear whether the firm was paying for his time at the nonprofit (I thought such things were the norm among the V100, but I could be wrong.) This would certainly have some bearing on his ability to stay there if his offer evaporated.

These are just my own recent observations. I will never have an offer from a V100 firm, so I don't suppose I will ever face this situation.


I'm glad NALP has at least set a standard to help guide keep the playing field level, though I do agree the game is still rigged insofar as prospectives don't have access to current, meaningful employment information (and NALP is not going to require public disclosure anytime soon). As JNSL has pointed out before, even the underlying Class of '08 and '09 data behind the median salary stats aren't helpful in measuring the amount of debt you should be comfortable taking on this year. As a slight improvement, Vanderbilt published the Class of 2010 2L summer employment info last year and will be coming out with the Class of 2011 2L list when it publishes the Recruitment Handbook sometime in late spring/early summer. All schools theoretically could publish, in a few months, preliminary information on percent of 2L and 3L classes with something lined up for summer/after graduation... this could help but I don't think it's likely to happen on its own except in a few rare instances. In a perfect world you could examine trends over the last few years up through right now and see how some schools have performed better than others during the retraction. But that assumes you could obtain full employment lists from a school for the Class of 2009 2L summer and then look at changes in 2010 and 2011 2L summer from the same school, none of which is available from any law school. You can't make solid comparisons based on the available (and outdated) information, which is why you should ask for more information.

All I can say so far is the usual:
1. large schools are likely hurting worse than smaller schools.
2. schools with limited geographic diversity in placement are likely hurting worse than schools with more spread out classes.
3. no schools are going to release any information unless you make it clear you are going to make your decision to attend their school based on whether or not they are forthcoming with the information. Neither the ABA nor the law schools (for the most part) have seen the importance of getting you current, reliable information, and until that changes it's up to accepted students to contact admissions offices saying "Hey, I'd like to accept your offer to attend but first I need to see full, current employment lists like what Vandy/Duke publishes, except even more current." At the same time, most schools monitor TLS posts and my guess is a number of them are preparing answers should some of you approach them. Leverage those acceptances and good luck convincing schools about the importance of being earnest.

OS, you mentioned Brooklyn Class of '09 working at RvK? Initials AR perchance? If so that's sweet, very cool guy. I was hanging out with a bunch of the WkA folks last week while I was in NY (Westchester, not the city, otherwise I would have notified you). Will be back over winter break... until then g'luck with finals and sorry I've been MIA this semester.

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OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:59 pm

rondemarino wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:OK, I LOL'd, but not everyone (even those people like me, who will be in horrendous debt) is willing to take a biglaw job to pay it off, now that IBR and loan forgiveness exist. This goes double for people at schools with decent LRAPs. In the past, you guys would have been spot on, and many PI hopefuls still follow this line of thinking.

If I ever have a shot at a market paying job, and I decline to pursue it for any reason, will people think I've gone off the deep end? (Answer with the knowledge that I will owe well north of $200k by graduation.)


We're assuming LRAPs aren't going be massacred by the employment situation? A tad wishful.

Also, I don't understand why you have to be well north of $200k by graduation. You are a PT student and presumably, a lot of PT students work during the school year to minimize their debt load. No?


Fordham's LRAP, like many others, is fairly restrictive as to the type of employment it will cover. It was designed specifically to aid people taking legal aid jobs, and those jobs won't become any easier to find. I imagine that more people will seek out qualifying employment, but I don't know that they're going to get it, unless nonprofits suddenly go on a hiring binge. At present, our LRAP doesn't cover government work, though the school is trying to raise the funds to do so.

Net result: More people trying to get the job I want. However, if I succeed in getting it, probably not much less LRAP money for me, all things held equal, and assuming our endowment doesn't shrink. (It's actually growing, even now, I believe. It is still insanely small for a school of Fordham's merit. Many schools further down the rankings have much, much more money than we do. People think Fordham is being stingy with financial aid: it really isn't. This is all we have, and people come for love of the school. Full time cross-admits nearly always get more money from BU and Emory.)

I will remain PT through the end of the summer, at which point I will be a day student. It is impossible for me to earn enough money to cover my COL without blasting a gigantic hole through my GPA. Many of my classmates discovered this and quit their jobs, though some are still working, and I salute them. I'm not ashamed to admit that I could not work full time and still pass my classes, and I'm frankly amazed by those who can. We're only taking one class under a full course load, so this is a pretty robust part time program. I'm not sitting around, though. I have an internship at a wonderful nonprofit within walking distance of my school. As you can probably imagine, it's unpaid.

I'll manage somehow. I swore when I began this process that I would choose a school for love and not for money (remarkably similar to the way I choose boys, actually, lol. Wealth does not impress me. Someone with a classical education who is into literature and the arts [strike]might[/strike] did so once. Things don't always end perfectly, but there is still so much of life left to come.)

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SteelReserve
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:46 pm

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby SteelReserve » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:08 pm

The big problems are:
You learn no skills
You get no benefits
You have no job security
You get no respect
You work in awful conditions


That blog definitely highlights the dark side of temping. But, from an acquaintance that temped, she actually enjoyed it so I'll list reasons why, just for the purposes of a counter-point:

Low/no-stress
Good pay (used to be at least, not sure of now)
Interact with interesting people (apparently there is a doc review camaraderie you don't get as a group of 'real' lawyers)
Good for people that realized during law school/during firm work that they don't want to practice law
Good for holding over till a non-law/quasi-law position opens up (eg in gov't).

All in all, it seems temping was a good option for people w/lower law school debt and little interest in actually being a lawyer. It's a shame it seems to pay so little these days?

User avatar
OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:18 pm

observationalist wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
As there have already been firms that have sent these 'deferred' associates packing, i think its hardly fair to call them 'employed.' That said, there will be no official rule on this and I'm sure the law schools will use this to their advantage and report them as employed, despite the fact that their jobs are far from certain to be there when the deferral period is over.


There actually is an official rule. NALP, the organization that compiles the 9-month graduate employment data, has instructed law schools to include deferred associate jobs, even if they haven't started as of the 9-month deadline.


*runs over to the Vandy website* Goodness me- 99% at graduation employment? I've seen enough research to be pretty well convinced that if Vandy says this, it is probably so, especially if the above mentioned NALP rule is in effect. I'm not making a judgment call about the morality here; I think it well might be fair to count deferred associates with $5k/month stipends as employed, as they are no worse off in the short term than their classmates making similar money at small firms (and there are probably a few, even at a school like Vandy). True, they seem to be a lot more vulnerable (though the small firm people could still be laid off quickly), so it would seem fairest to students to designate the percentage deferred.

Unexpected things can happen to the deferred, though. I met a member of the BLS class of 2009 (I told the rest of this story elsewhere, but it was one I won't soon forget.) This kid had accepted a full ride over a seat at Fordham or BU. Of course I thought he was out of his mind to gamble like that, but he won the gamble, came out top 5%, and was deferred from a V50 job. I asked what he was doing during his deferral (I also asked what his classmates were doing, and he answered, but I refuse to make this thread even more depressing.) Anyway, he was working for a well known environmental nonprofit (one of the coolest people on TLS once spent a summer there), and he loved it. I mean, would not stop raving about it, to the point where I questioned why in the hell he wanted the V50 job in the the first place, especially since he had no loans to repay (apart from CoL, I presume). I wished him well, and I hope his option to start there next year will remain, even if he does seem pretty happily deferred. If he did owe $220k, as I will, he could still take advantage of IBR/LRAP, but the picture would look a bit different, and it was unclear whether the firm was paying for his time at the nonprofit (I thought such things were the norm among the V100, but I could be wrong.) This would certainly have some bearing on his ability to stay there if his offer evaporated.

These are just my own recent observations. I will never have an offer from a V100 firm, so I don't suppose I will ever face this situation.


I'm glad NALP has at least set a standard to help guide keep the playing field level, though I do agree the game is still rigged insofar as prospectives don't have access to current, meaningful employment information (and NALP is not going to require public disclosure anytime soon). As JNSL has pointed out before, even the underlying Class of '08 and '09 data behind the median salary stats aren't helpful in measuring the amount of debt you should be comfortable taking on this year. As a slight improvement, Vanderbilt published the Class of 2010 2L summer employment info last year and will be coming out with the Class of 2011 2L list when it publishes the Recruitment Handbook sometime in late spring/early summer. All schools theoretically could publish, in a few months, preliminary information on percent of 2L and 3L classes with something lined up for summer/after graduation... this could help but I don't think it's likely to happen on its own except in a few rare instances. In a perfect world you could examine trends over the last few years up through right now and see how some schools have performed better than others during the retraction. But that assumes you could obtain full employment lists from a school for the Class of 2009 2L summer and then look at changes in 2010 and 2011 2L summer from the same school, none of which is available from any law school. You can't make solid comparisons based on the available (and outdated) information, which is why you should ask for more information.

All I can say so far is the usual:
1. large schools are likely hurting worse than smaller schools.
2. schools with limited geographic diversity in placement are likely hurting worse than schools with more spread out classes.
3. no schools are going to release any information unless you make it clear you are going to make your decision to attend their school based on whether or not they are forthcoming with the information. Neither the ABA nor the law schools (for the most part) have seen the importance of getting you current, reliable information, and until that changes it's up to accepted students to contact admissions offices saying "Hey, I'd like to accept your offer to attend but first I need to see full, current employment lists like what Vandy/Duke publishes, except even more current." At the same time, most schools monitor TLS posts and my guess is a number of them are preparing answers should some of you approach them. Leverage those acceptances and good luck convincing schools about the importance of being earnest.

OS, you mentioned Brooklyn Class of '09 working at RvK? Initials AR perchance? If so that's sweet, very cool guy. I was hanging out with a bunch of the WkA folks last week while I was in NY (Westchester, not the city, otherwise I would have notified you). Will be back over winter break... until then g'luck with finals and sorry I've been MIA this semester.


Oh, Observationalist, how you shrink the world! He was very nice, but I was voluntarily intoxicated at the time and wish I could remember much more about him. He was certainly more interesting than some of the T6 kids I met that night. Biglaw, and all the ways one can pursue it, is not the most stimulating topic of conversation ever invented.

As usual, I would wager all I have (which admittedly is a large negative net worth, lol) that you are right. I don't know how bad it really was here, but we are a large school serving one major market. (Big self selection factor, though-- you could not pay me to leave my beloved city). I doubt that anyone at my school would tell me anything official, though my loyalty is unquestioned. Knowing the painful facts would not make me appreciate Fordham any less.

Come and visit! I will probably be here from my last final (Dec 17th) through New Year's Eve, at least. I also want to meet your gf at NYU.

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OperaSoprano
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Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:24 pm

SteelReserve wrote:
The big problems are:
You learn no skills
You get no benefits
You have no job security
You get no respect
You work in awful conditions


That blog definitely highlights the dark side of temping. But, from an acquaintance that temped, she actually enjoyed it so I'll list reasons why, just for the purposes of a counter-point:

Low/no-stress
Good pay (used to be at least, not sure of now)
Interact with interesting people (apparently there is a doc review camaraderie you don't get as a group of 'real' lawyers)
Good for people that realized during law school/during firm work that they don't want to practice law
Good for holding over till a non-law/quasi-law position opens up (eg in gov't).

All in all, it seems temping was a good option for people w/lower law school debt and little interest in actually being a lawyer. It's a shame it seems to pay so little these days?


I guess the only real question is whether you would be hosed if you did want to practice law (private practice, that is), and temping was all you could find. I mean, temp work outside the legal field is not the kiss of death, and has actually led some of my friends into cool jobs. It kind of is a shame the stigma is so strong in law.

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reasonable_man
Posts: 2200
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby reasonable_man » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:31 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
SteelReserve wrote:
The big problems are:
You learn no skills
You get no benefits
You have no job security
You get no respect
You work in awful conditions


That blog definitely highlights the dark side of temping. But, from an acquaintance that temped, she actually enjoyed it so I'll list reasons why, just for the purposes of a counter-point:

Low/no-stress
Good pay (used to be at least, not sure of now)
Interact with interesting people (apparently there is a doc review camaraderie you don't get as a group of 'real' lawyers)
Good for people that realized during law school/during firm work that they don't want to practice law
Good for holding over till a non-law/quasi-law position opens up (eg in gov't).

All in all, it seems temping was a good option for people w/lower law school debt and little interest in actually being a lawyer. It's a shame it seems to pay so little these days?


I guess the only real question is whether you would be hosed if you did want to practice law (private practice, that is), and temping was all you could find. I mean, temp work outside the legal field is not the kiss of death, and has actually led some of my friends into cool jobs. It kind of is a shame the stigma is so strong in law.



Even ITE, my firm generally will not hire someone with temp experience and we tend to be pretty un-snootey. Its a really nasty red-X to deal with.

User avatar
OperaSoprano
Posts: 4410
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:54 am

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:51 pm

reasonable_man wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
SteelReserve wrote:
The big problems are:
You learn no skills
You get no benefits
You have no job security
You get no respect
You work in awful conditions


That blog definitely highlights the dark side of temping. But, from an acquaintance that temped, she actually enjoyed it so I'll list reasons why, just for the purposes of a counter-point:

Low/no-stress
Good pay (used to be at least, not sure of now)
Interact with interesting people (apparently there is a doc review camaraderie you don't get as a group of 'real' lawyers)
Good for people that realized during law school/during firm work that they don't want to practice law
Good for holding over till a non-law/quasi-law position opens up (eg in gov't).

All in all, it seems temping was a good option for people w/lower law school debt and little interest in actually being a lawyer. It's a shame it seems to pay so little these days?


I guess the only real question is whether you would be hosed if you did want to practice law (private practice, that is), and temping was all you could find. I mean, temp work outside the legal field is not the kiss of death, and has actually led some of my friends into cool jobs. It kind of is a shame the stigma is so strong in law.



Even ITE, my firm generally will not hire someone with temp experience and we tend to be pretty un-snootey. Its a really nasty red-X to deal with.


My god, RM, that sounds like an awful situation to be in.

(Please, no one tell me anything else disturbing until after December 17th.)

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observationalist
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:55 pm

Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby observationalist » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:55 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
observationalist wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:
There actually is an official rule. NALP, the organization that compiles the 9-month graduate employment data, has instructed law schools to include deferred associate jobs, even if they haven't started as of the 9-month deadline.


*runs over to the Vandy website* Goodness me- 99% at graduation employment? I've seen enough research to be pretty well convinced that if Vandy says this, it is probably so, especially if the above mentioned NALP rule is in effect. I'm not making a judgment call about the morality here; I think it well might be fair to count deferred associates with $5k/month stipends as employed, as they are no worse off in the short term than their classmates making similar money at small firms (and there are probably a few, even at a school like Vandy). True, they seem to be a lot more vulnerable (though the small firm people could still be laid off quickly), so it would seem fairest to students to designate the percentage deferred.

Unexpected things can happen to the deferred, though. I met a member of the BLS class of 2009 (I told the rest of this story elsewhere, but it was one I won't soon forget.) This kid had accepted a full ride over a seat at Fordham or BU. Of course I thought he was out of his mind to gamble like that, but he won the gamble, came out top 5%, and was deferred from a V50 job. I asked what he was doing during his deferral (I also asked what his classmates were doing, and he answered, but I refuse to make this thread even more depressing.) Anyway, he was working for a well known environmental nonprofit (one of the coolest people on TLS once spent a summer there), and he loved it. I mean, would not stop raving about it, to the point where I questioned why in the hell he wanted the V50 job in the the first place, especially since he had no loans to repay (apart from CoL, I presume). I wished him well, and I hope his option to start there next year will remain, even if he does seem pretty happily deferred. If he did owe $220k, as I will, he could still take advantage of IBR/LRAP, but the picture would look a bit different, and it was unclear whether the firm was paying for his time at the nonprofit (I thought such things were the norm among the V100, but I could be wrong.) This would certainly have some bearing on his ability to stay there if his offer evaporated.

These are just my own recent observations. I will never have an offer from a V100 firm, so I don't suppose I will ever face this situation.


I'm glad NALP has at least set a standard to help guide keep the playing field level, though I do agree the game is still rigged insofar as prospectives don't have access to current, meaningful employment information (and NALP is not going to require public disclosure anytime soon). As JNSL has pointed out before, even the underlying Class of '08 and '09 data behind the median salary stats aren't helpful in measuring the amount of debt you should be comfortable taking on this year. As a slight improvement, Vanderbilt published the Class of 2010 2L summer employment info last year and will be coming out with the Class of 2011 2L list when it publishes the Recruitment Handbook sometime in late spring/early summer. All schools theoretically could publish, in a few months, preliminary information on percent of 2L and 3L classes with something lined up for summer/after graduation... this could help but I don't think it's likely to happen on its own except in a few rare instances. In a perfect world you could examine trends over the last few years up through right now and see how some schools have performed better than others during the retraction. But that assumes you could obtain full employment lists from a school for the Class of 2009 2L summer and then look at changes in 2010 and 2011 2L summer from the same school, none of which is available from any law school. You can't make solid comparisons based on the available (and outdated) information, which is why you should ask for more information.

All I can say so far is the usual:
1. large schools are likely hurting worse than smaller schools.
2. schools with limited geographic diversity in placement are likely hurting worse than schools with more spread out classes.
3. no schools are going to release any information unless you make it clear you are going to make your decision to attend their school based on whether or not they are forthcoming with the information. Neither the ABA nor the law schools (for the most part) have seen the importance of getting you current, reliable information, and until that changes it's up to accepted students to contact admissions offices saying "Hey, I'd like to accept your offer to attend but first I need to see full, current employment lists like what Vandy/Duke publishes, except even more current." At the same time, most schools monitor TLS posts and my guess is a number of them are preparing answers should some of you approach them. Leverage those acceptances and good luck convincing schools about the importance of being earnest.

OS, you mentioned Brooklyn Class of '09 working at RvK? Initials AR perchance? If so that's sweet, very cool guy. I was hanging out with a bunch of the WkA folks last week while I was in NY (Westchester, not the city, otherwise I would have notified you). Will be back over winter break... until then g'luck with finals and sorry I've been MIA this semester.


Oh, Observationalist, how you shrink the world! He was very nice, but I was voluntarily intoxicated at the time and wish I could remember much more about him. He was certainly more interesting than some of the T6 kids I met that night. Biglaw, and all the ways one can pursue it, is not the most stimulating topic of conversation ever invented.

As usual, I would wager all I have (which admittedly is a large negative net worth, lol) that you are right. I don't know how bad it really was here, but we are a large school serving one major market. (Big self selection factor, though-- you could not pay me to leave my beloved city). I doubt that anyone at my school would tell me anything official, though my loyalty is unquestioned. Knowing the painful facts would not make me appreciate Fordham any less.

Come and visit! I will probably be here from my last final (Dec 17th) through New Year's Eve, at least. I also want to meet your gf at NYU.


I will let you know when we are around. As far as getting info from Fordham, I'm sure you can convince them (after finals) that it will help their cause to continue being more transparent than most ABA-approved law schools. New York is still the largest legal market and Fordham is potentially doing better than similarly-ranked schools targeting smaller markets. I would really like to see some prospectives ask for the information and then post the responses they get from Fordham/everywhere else.

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nealric
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby nealric » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:40 pm

Low/no-stress
Good pay (used to be at least, not sure of now)
Interact with interesting people (apparently there is a doc review camaraderie you don't get as a group of 'real' lawyers)
Good for people that realized during law school/during firm work that they don't want to practice law
Good for holding over till a non-law/quasi-law position opens up (eg in gov't).


Yeah, I think most of those don't happen much anymore.

Good pay. I've seen $20/hr with no overtime listed in NYC. I'm pretty sure construction workers make more than that.
Interaction. I suppose it can depend on the project, but people I've talked to who do doc review don't seem to agree with that. Projects these days are pretty fleeting so you don't really build any relationships.
People who don't want to practice law. I say if you don't want to practice law, stop practicing law.
Good for holding people over: I guess that's all it's good for these days. But then only when there are no other options.


BTW: temping in law is not like temping in other fields because of the type of work it is. If you are temping, you are not developing any useful skills. Any skills you may have acquired are languishing.

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Doritos
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby Doritos » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:50 pm

nealric wrote:
Low/no-stress
Good pay (used to be at least, not sure of now)
Interact with interesting people (apparently there is a doc review camaraderie you don't get as a group of 'real' lawyers)
Good for people that realized during law school/during firm work that they don't want to practice law
Good for holding over till a non-law/quasi-law position opens up (eg in gov't).


Yeah, I think most of those don't happen much anymore.

Good pay. I've seen $20/hr with no overtime listed in NYC. I'm pretty sure construction workers make more than that.
Interaction. I suppose it can depend on the project, but people I've talked to who do doc review don't seem to agree with that. Projects these days are pretty fleeting so you don't really build any relationships.
People who don't want to practice law. I say if you don't want to practice law, stop practicing law.
Good for holding people over: I guess that's all it's good for these days. But then only when there are no other options.


BTW: temping in law is not like temping in other fields because of the type of work it is. If you are temping, you are not developing any useful skills. Any skills you may have acquired are languishing.


Would you suggest turning down temp work and being unemployed/work in retail or something? If temping is that bad and makes people unemployable it seems it would be better to just say no to temping and frap lattes or something while you look for real legal work. Am I correct in this assessment? (Hopefully I won't ever have to make that decision!)

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nealric
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby nealric » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:15 pm

If temping is that bad and makes people unemployable it seems it would be better to just say no to temping and frap lattes or something while you look for real legal work. Am I correct in this assessment? (Hopefully I won't ever have to make that decision!)



I would start a low-end solo practice in a low COL area if it got that bad. Litigating over fender-bender induced sore necks is better than flipping burgers.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:59 am

observationalist wrote:I will let you know when we are around. As far as getting info from Fordham, I'm sure you can convince them (after finals) that it will help their cause to continue being more transparent than most ABA-approved law schools. New York is still the largest legal market and Fordham is potentially doing better than similarly-ranked schools targeting smaller markets. I would really like to see some prospectives ask for the information and then post the responses they get from Fordham/everywhere else.


When I have built the capital do so, I intend to try. I know we have everything to be proud of, and nothing to hide. If we are in trouble, I can be consoled by the fact that we did nothing misleading or wrong regarding our employment reporting, and we never attempted, as some schools did, to hide PT stats, or just cut the class, in order to increase our ranking. My school won't even yield protect. We admitted a 180 a few days ago. I sent my congratulations.

I hope things are better than I oft times fear, and I hear we are outplacing peers outside NYC in similar situations, especially those in small cities or rural areas. There is no way we had 99% employment at graduation (we never have), but I just want to know the number was not something awful. I just want to know.

One final thought-- do you think adcomms know this information? I've been leading official tours (in all my spare time, lol), and people ask, but I have to tell them I don't know a damn thing for certain. Our admissions office has said I am allowed to tell prospectives anything, and presumably that might include the latest employment information, if they know, and if they'll share those numbers with me. Everything else I know back to front, like the statute of frauds or the battle of the forms under the UCC. :lol:

Because I love my school, my city, and my classmates, I worry. Nothing else to be done, yet.

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observationalist
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby observationalist » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:52 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
observationalist wrote:I will let you know when we are around. As far as getting info from Fordham, I'm sure you can convince them (after finals) that it will help their cause to continue being more transparent than most ABA-approved law schools. New York is still the largest legal market and Fordham is potentially doing better than similarly-ranked schools targeting smaller markets. I would really like to see some prospectives ask for the information and then post the responses they get from Fordham/everywhere else.


When I have built the capital do so, I intend to try. I know we have everything to be proud of, and nothing to hide. If we are in trouble, I can be consoled by the fact that we did nothing misleading or wrong regarding our employment reporting, and we never attempted, as some schools did, to hide PT stats, or just cut the class, in order to increase our ranking. My school won't even yield protect. We admitted a 180 a few days ago. I sent my congratulations.

I hope things are better than I oft times fear, and I hear we are outplacing peers outside NYC in similar situations, especially those in small cities or rural areas. There is no way we had 99% employment at graduation (we never have), but I just want to know the number was not something awful. I just want to know.

One final thought-- do you think adcomms know this information? I've been leading official tours (in all my spare time, lol), and people ask, but I have to tell them I don't know a damn thing for certain. Our admissions office has said I am allowed to tell prospectives anything, and presumably that might include the latest employment information, if they know, and if they'll share those numbers with me. Everything else I know back to front, like the statute of frauds or the battle of the forms under the UCC. :lol:

Because I love my school, my city, and my classmates, I worry. Nothing else to be done, yet.


Yes let's discuss after finals are over. I only have two unscheduled exams once I get this final paper in tomorrow... 3L. And we just got our Drug Law & Policy exams back and I am happy to report that I do, indeed, know something about the arguments for and against legalizing marijuana. Now I need to go send job applications to NORML, or at least Barney Frank http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2835ih.txt.pdf

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AlanShore
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby AlanShore » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:15 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
observationalist wrote:I will let you know when we are around. As far as getting info from Fordham, I'm sure you can convince them (after finals) that it will help their cause to continue being more transparent than most ABA-approved law schools. New York is still the largest legal market and Fordham is potentially doing better than similarly-ranked schools targeting smaller markets. I would really like to see some prospectives ask for the information and then post the responses they get from Fordham/everywhere else.


When I have built the capital do so, I intend to try. I know we have everything to be proud of, and nothing to hide. If we are in trouble, I can be consoled by the fact that we did nothing misleading or wrong regarding our employment reporting, and we never attempted, as some schools did, to hide PT stats, or just cut the class, in order to increase our ranking. My school won't even yield protect. We admitted a 180 a few days ago. I sent my congratulations.

I hope things are better than I oft times fear, and I hear we are outplacing peers outside NYC in similar situations, especially those in small cities or rural areas. There is no way we had 99% employment at graduation (we never have), but I just want to know the number was not something awful. I just want to know.

One final thought-- do you think adcomms know this information? I've been leading official tours (in all my spare time, lol), and people ask, but I have to tell them I don't know a damn thing for certain. Our admissions office has said I am allowed to tell prospectives anything, and presumably that might include the latest employment information, if they know, and if they'll share those numbers with me. Everything else I know back to front, like the statute of frauds or the battle of the forms under the UCC. :lol:

Because I love my school, my city, and my classmates, I worry. Nothing else to be done, yet.


I have never met anyone who loves their school as much as you Opera!!!

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:46 pm

observationalist wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
observationalist wrote:I will let you know when we are around. As far as getting info from Fordham, I'm sure you can convince them (after finals) that it will help their cause to continue being more transparent than most ABA-approved law schools. New York is still the largest legal market and Fordham is potentially doing better than similarly-ranked schools targeting smaller markets. I would really like to see some prospectives ask for the information and then post the responses they get from Fordham/everywhere else.


When I have built the capital do so, I intend to try. I know we have everything to be proud of, and nothing to hide. If we are in trouble, I can be consoled by the fact that we did nothing misleading or wrong regarding our employment reporting, and we never attempted, as some schools did, to hide PT stats, or just cut the class, in order to increase our ranking. My school won't even yield protect. We admitted a 180 a few days ago. I sent my congratulations.

I hope things are better than I oft times fear, and I hear we are outplacing peers outside NYC in similar situations, especially those in small cities or rural areas. There is no way we had 99% employment at graduation (we never have), but I just want to know the number was not something awful. I just want to know.

One final thought-- do you think adcomms know this information? I've been leading official tours (in all my spare time, lol), and people ask, but I have to tell them I don't know a damn thing for certain. Our admissions office has said I am allowed to tell prospectives anything, and presumably that might include the latest employment information, if they know, and if they'll share those numbers with me. Everything else I know back to front, like the statute of frauds or the battle of the forms under the UCC. :lol:

Because I love my school, my city, and my classmates, I worry. Nothing else to be done, yet.


Yes let's discuss after finals are over. I only have two unscheduled exams once I get this final paper in tomorrow... 3L. And we just got our Drug Law & Policy exams back and I am happy to report that I do, indeed, know something about the arguments for and against legalizing marijuana. Now I need to go send job applications to NORML, or at least Barney Frank http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h2835ih.txt.pdf


Good luck! I know you can get one of these, or whatever else you might decide to explore. People criticize me for some of my beliefs, but I do feel that people tend to get back what they give, and you've given a lot, to your school and your community in general. Go kill those finals!

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:48 pm

AlanShore wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
observationalist wrote:I will let you know when we are around. As far as getting info from Fordham, I'm sure you can convince them (after finals) that it will help their cause to continue being more transparent than most ABA-approved law schools. New York is still the largest legal market and Fordham is potentially doing better than similarly-ranked schools targeting smaller markets. I would really like to see some prospectives ask for the information and then post the responses they get from Fordham/everywhere else.


When I have built the capital do so, I intend to try. I know we have everything to be proud of, and nothing to hide. If we are in trouble, I can be consoled by the fact that we did nothing misleading or wrong regarding our employment reporting, and we never attempted, as some schools did, to hide PT stats, or just cut the class, in order to increase our ranking. My school won't even yield protect. We admitted a 180 a few days ago. I sent my congratulations.

I hope things are better than I oft times fear, and I hear we are outplacing peers outside NYC in similar situations, especially those in small cities or rural areas. There is no way we had 99% employment at graduation (we never have), but I just want to know the number was not something awful. I just want to know.

One final thought-- do you think adcomms know this information? I've been leading official tours (in all my spare time, lol), and people ask, but I have to tell them I don't know a damn thing for certain. Our admissions office has said I am allowed to tell prospectives anything, and presumably that might include the latest employment information, if they know, and if they'll share those numbers with me. Everything else I know back to front, like the statute of frauds or the battle of the forms under the UCC. :lol:

Because I love my school, my city, and my classmates, I worry. Nothing else to be done, yet.


I have never met anyone who loves their school as much as you Opera!!!


Fordham saw something in me at a time when I saw nothing in myself. I'm hardly unusual, though. Many people love their schools without being as ridiculously effusive about it as I am. :lol:

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rondemarino
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby rondemarino » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:50 pm

Don't let love blind you. :wink:

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:58 pm

rondemarino wrote:Don't let love blind you. :wink:


Can't.

My mom: See that structure up there on 116th St? Wouldn't you love to go there? You know you would! (Proceeds on with a list of ways in which CLS pwns the school I am now attending).

My dad: Georgetown has loads of connections to government jobs, you know, and DC is such a livable city. Don't listen to your mother.

My little sister: I'll support you if it comes to war with the above two parties, provided you stop trying to make me transfer out of Oberlin. Kthnxbai.

Me: What makes any of you think I'm even going to break median at Fordham? Talk about counting chickens before they've even reached embryonic stage...

articulably suspect
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby articulably suspect » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:23 pm

rondemarino wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:OK, I LOL'd, but not everyone (even those people like me, who will be in horrendous debt) is willing to take a biglaw job to pay it off, now that IBR and loan forgiveness exist. This goes double for people at schools with decent LRAPs. In the past, you guys would have been spot on, and many PI hopefuls still follow this line of thinking.

If I ever have a shot at a market paying job, and I decline to pursue it for any reason, will people think I've gone off the deep end? (Answer with the knowledge that I will owe well north of $200k by graduation.)


We're assuming LRAPs aren't going be massacred by the employment situation? A tad wishful.

Also, I don't understand why you have to be well north of $200k by graduation. You are a PT student and presumably, a lot of PT students work during the school year to minimize their debt load. No?


I've been hearing this and I'm not sure where this is coming from. I think at certain schools this could happen(the classic scam artists), but I don't think schools and the federal govt are going to slaughter LRAP because of a dramatic increase of jd's moving to the public sector. If you look at last years employment statistics, at least the schools I looked into, very few people were working in a position that would qualify for LRAP, more did for IBR(salary cap is higher.) Davis, which is suppose is considered to be more pi minded, had about 20% of their 2008 class in pi, military, govt work(many federal positions won't qualify for ls LRAPs.) UCLA at 15%. Are we expecting an increase of 10, 15, 20% in pi/govt work that qualifies for LRAP? As far as I know there hasn't been a mass increase in the number of pi jobs, or enough of one to make cutting back LRAP a necessity. If all of a sudden there were a shit load of govt and pi jobs created right now, I could maybe see this LRAP scenario people on TLS describe happening.

If Davis is any indication of what's to come of LRAP, they just beefed up their LRAP a couple months ago.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Salary Reporting?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:45 pm

ejjones wrote:
rondemarino wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:OK, I LOL'd, but not everyone (even those people like me, who will be in horrendous debt) is willing to take a biglaw job to pay it off, now that IBR and loan forgiveness exist. This goes double for people at schools with decent LRAPs. In the past, you guys would have been spot on, and many PI hopefuls still follow this line of thinking.

If I ever have a shot at a market paying job, and I decline to pursue it for any reason, will people think I've gone off the deep end? (Answer with the knowledge that I will owe well north of $200k by graduation.)


We're assuming LRAPs aren't going be massacred by the employment situation? A tad wishful.

Also, I don't understand why you have to be well north of $200k by graduation. You are a PT student and presumably, a lot of PT students work during the school year to minimize their debt load. No?


I've been hearing this and I'm not sure where this is coming from. I think at certain schools this could happen(the classic scam artists), but I don't think schools and the federal govt are going to slaughter LRAP because of a dramatic increase of jd's moving to the public sector. If you look at last years employment statistics, at least the schools I looked into, very few people were working in a position that would qualify for LRAP, more did for IBR(salary cap is higher.) Davis, which is suppose is considered to be more pi minded, had about 20% of their 2008 class in pi, military, govt work(many federal positions won't qualify for ls LRAPs.) UCLA at 15%. Are we expecting an increase of 10, 15, 20% in pi/govt work that qualifies for LRAP? As far as I know there hasn't been a mass increase in the number of pi jobs, or enough of one to make cutting back LRAP a necessity. If all of a sudden there were a shit load of govt and pi jobs created right now, I could maybe see this LRAP scenario people on TLS describe happening.

If Davis is any indication of what's to come of LRAP, they just beefed up their LRAP a couple months ago.


This is pretty much what I noted. The number of government jobs does seem to be increasing, but since our LRAP doesn't cover them yet, people headed for nonprofits which do qualify should be in decent shape here. It's those jobs themselves that will be damn near impossible to get.




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