Firms without billable hours?

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JD'izzle
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Firms without billable hours?

Postby JD'izzle » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:21 pm

Are there any private firms that don't require billable hours? Personally, I don't feel like dealing with 6 minute billing and 2200 yearly minimums (this translates to at least 3,000 real working hours).

06072010
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby 06072010 » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:23 pm

Not really dude. Almost all firms make you track your time regardless of the billing system eventually passed on to the client. 60 hours a week with four weeks off is 2880. That's what professionals work.

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Vincent Vega
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Vincent Vega » Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:27 pm

None that I've ever heard of.

Also, billable hours are frequently INflated, not DEflated.

tengorazon
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby tengorazon » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:00 am

There are some firms that don't have minimum billables (e.g., W&C), but everyone bills.

06072010
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby 06072010 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:53 am

tengorazon wrote:There are some firms that don't have minimum billables (e.g., W&C), but everyone bills.


There is still a minimum, dude.

Renzo
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Renzo » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:13 pm

PKSebben wrote:
tengorazon wrote:There are some firms that don't have minimum billables (e.g., W&C), but everyone bills.


There is still a minimum, dude.

Yeah, they just don't tell you what it is until you're below it and they're showing you the door.

tengorazon
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby tengorazon » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:53 pm

Renzo wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
tengorazon wrote:There are some firms that don't have minimum billables (e.g., W&C), but everyone bills.


There is still a minimum, dude.

Yeah, they just don't tell you what it is until you're below it and they're showing you the door.


No, it's more like anyone who doesn't bill like 2300 hours knows the place isn't for them.

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SteelReserve
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby SteelReserve » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:32 pm

I don't know if you had only biglaw in mind with your question, but I believe one of the pros of working in a personal injury firm is no billable hour system--just result/contingency based compensation.

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williambrianlondon
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby williambrianlondon » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:49 pm

some immigration firms, as well, do not use billable hours.

Anonymous User
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:52 pm

PKSebben wrote:
tengorazon wrote:There are some firms that don't have minimum billables (e.g., W&C), but everyone bills.


There is still a minimum, dude.


I can confirm that this is true. There is definitely a minimum.

yabbadabbado
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby yabbadabbado » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:57 pm

Even many public sector positions require you to track time and/or work or be at the office a minimum number of hours...

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TTT-LS
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:04 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:19 pm

JD'izzle wrote:2200 yearly minimums (this translates to at least 3,000 real working hours).

You have never worked at a firm.

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TTT-LS
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby TTT-LS » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:12 pm

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:15 pm

TTT-LS wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
JD'izzle wrote:2200 yearly minimums (this translates to at least 3,000 real working hours).

You have never worked at a firm.

I don't think a 2200/3000 ratio is all that out of line, based on what I have seen myself as a SA and on what I've heard from junior associates. Yes, you will get more efficient with time, but there's no question that one cannot bill all of one's time, particularly early on.
There's a difference between not billing all of one's time and suggesting that you will only be billing 2 of every 3 hours.

06072010
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby 06072010 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:17 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
TTT-LS wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
JD'izzle wrote:2200 yearly minimums (this translates to at least 3,000 real working hours).

You have never worked at a firm.

I don't think a 2200/3000 ratio is all that out of line, based on what I have seen myself as a SA and on what I've heard from junior associates. Yes, you will get more efficient with time, but there's no question that one cannot bill all of one's time, particularly early on.
There's a difference between not billing all of one's time and suggesting that you will only be billing 2 of every 3 hours.


That's very much in line with what I saw at my firm. 66-75% efficiency. There is a metric fuckload of shit you can't bill for, but has to get done. And god help you if you get a task-based billing client. Efficiency drops like crazy.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:19 pm

PKSebben wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:There's a difference between not billing all of one's time and suggesting that you will only be billing 2 of every 3 hours.


That's very much in line with what I saw at my firm. 66-75% efficiency. There is a metric fuckload of shit you can't bill for, but has to get done. And god help you if you get a task-based billing client. Efficiency drops like crazy.

What you saw at your firm for yourself as a SA? For first years? For senior associates?

06072010
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby 06072010 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:25 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:There's a difference between not billing all of one's time and suggesting that you will only be billing 2 of every 3 hours.


That's very much in line with what I saw at my firm. 66-75% efficiency. There is a metric fuckload of shit you can't bill for, but has to get done. And god help you if you get a task-based billing client. Efficiency drops like crazy.

What you saw at your firm for yourself as a SA? For first years? For senior associates?


I understand you're being a patronizing fuckstick, but I'll dignify you with a response so that other people in here can get a real sense of the world.

I had nowhere near that because summers are a whole other world. I was paired with a 3rd year officemate and a senior associate mentor who were required to send in their time sheets to for the summer so I could see what they worked, what they billed, and what was eventually billed to the client. You eventually get a report on what percentage they collected, but our billing cycle was shorter than my time at the firm. I paid very close attention to these numbers. The senior associate was certainly more efficient, but I don't know if that's a function of him having more work, being better at his job, his billing strategy (billing in chunks vs. small time increments), clients, or a combination of any/all of those factors.

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Kohinoor
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby Kohinoor » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:53 pm

PKSebben wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
Kohinoor wrote:There's a difference between not billing all of one's time and suggesting that you will only be billing 2 of every 3 hours.


That's very much in line with what I saw at my firm. 66-75% efficiency. There is a metric fuckload of shit you can't bill for, but has to get done. And god help you if you get a task-based billing client. Efficiency drops like crazy.

What you saw at your firm for yourself as a SA? For first years? For senior associates?


I understand you're being a patronizing fuckstick, but I'll dignify you with a response so that other people in here can get a real sense of the world.

I had nowhere near that because summers are a whole other world. I was paired with a 3rd year officemate and a senior associate mentor who were required to send in their time sheets to for the summer so I could see what they worked, what they billed, and what was eventually billed to the client. You eventually get a report on what percentage they collected, but our billing cycle was shorter than my time at the firm. I paid very close attention to these numbers. The senior associate was certainly more efficient, but I don't know if that's a function of him having more work, being better at his job, his billing strategy (billing in chunks vs. small time increments), clients, or a combination of any/all of those factors.

I didn't realize that asking for clarification makes one a patronizing fuckstick, but ok! It's even harder to be patronizing when I literally had no idea whether you had, as you actually did, seen timesheets for other attorneys.

06072010
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby 06072010 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:12 pm

Allow me to summarize why I thought, and still think, you're being an effstick.

JD'izzle: I don't want to work 3000 hours. His targets (2200 billable and >3000 worked backed up by Yale Study) http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/C ... e_hour.pdf

You: You have never worked at a firm (translation: you don't know what you're talking about)(fuckstick comment #1)

TTT-TLS: Actually that's accurate and I worked at a firm

PKSebben: Me too -- that's what I saw at my firm

You: Nuh-uh -- were you talking about you or other associates? -- but what about the seniors? (fuckstick comment number #2 -- taken in context of comment #1) (Aside: why would I give you information about a summer associate's hours? How is that relevant? Give me some credit)

PK: You are a fuckstick.

Hope that clears up your confusion.

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underdawg
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby underdawg » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:24 am

TTT-LS wrote:
tengorazon wrote:No, it's more like anyone who doesn't bill like 2300 hours knows the place isn't for them.

Which is why I turned them down.

which is why i turned down wlrk :roll:

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TTT-LS
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby TTT-LS » Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:36 am

.
Last edited by TTT-LS on Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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underdawg
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby underdawg » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:06 am

latter

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neskerdoo
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby neskerdoo » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:42 am

I think he meant both

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CE2JD
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Re: Firms without billable hours?

Postby CE2JD » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:55 pm

Renzo wrote:
PKSebben wrote:
tengorazon wrote:There are some firms that don't have minimum billables (e.g., W&C), but everyone bills.


There is still a minimum, dude.

Yeah, they just don't tell you what it is until you're below it and they're showing you the door.


Do they even hire people at W&C who wouldn't naturally, and without any coercion or encouragement, work at least 1800 hours?

I find such a proposition highly unlikely.




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