2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:44 pm

Notre Dame: Personally know of at even least 5 people on LAW REVIEW who got shut out absolutely everywhere, some of which even were shooting for IP jobs with an engineering background. It's really, really bad.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby ughOSU » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:45 pm

rondemarino wrote:Apparently a rumor on auto admit had 50% of Duke 2Ls still looking to line up a gig for next summer. Is this really true? How about the rest of the lower T14?

Great thread, although I am a little bit surprised that you're so surprised about this, given how convinced you were for the inelasticity of demand for T14. These employment "statistics" are the reason I feel that people with T14 numbers may be going lower T30 w/ full rides ITE. Anyway, I honestly don't want to derail this thread because I appreciate what it's doing.

I asked about OCI when I toured NU early november, and the tour guide estimated that around 50% hit on OCI this year (so I guess I'm confirming the previous NU #'s cited as far as they can be confirmed, although it was from a student working for the admissions committee, and if I had to guess, I'd guess they told their tour guides to qualify their esitmate with "well we don't know yet and it may be higher, but among my friends _____").

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby rondemarino » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:03 pm

ughOSU wrote:
rondemarino wrote:Apparently a rumor on auto admit had 50% of Duke 2Ls still looking to line up a gig for next summer. Is this really true? How about the rest of the lower T14?

Great thread, although I am a little bit surprised that you're so surprised about this, given how convinced you were for the inelasticity of demand for T14. These employment "statistics" are the reason I feel that people with T14 numbers may be going lower T30 w/ full rides ITE. Anyway, I honestly don't want to derail this thread because I appreciate what it's doing.

I asked about OCI when I toured NU early november, and the tour guide estimated that around 50% hit on OCI this year (so I guess I'm confirming the previous NU #'s cited as far as they can be confirmed, although it was from a student working for the admissions committee, and if I had to guess, I'd guess they told their tour guides to qualify their esitmate with "well we don't know yet and it may be higher, but among my friends _____").


We'll see. This thread, shaky value of of number notwithstanding, has done a job of illustrating the trade-off. (Better chance of employment + $50-100k in additional debt) vs. (Lower chances of employment + less debt). Its a matter of which risk you are more comfortable accepting. I'm going to guess LRAPs and IBR will nudge people to option #1.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby rayiner » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:42 pm

ughOSU wrote:
rondemarino wrote:Apparently a rumor on auto admit had 50% of Duke 2Ls still looking to line up a gig for next summer. Is this really true? How about the rest of the lower T14?

Great thread, although I am a little bit surprised that you're so surprised about this, given how convinced you were for the inelasticity of demand for T14. These employment "statistics" are the reason I feel that people with T14 numbers may be going lower T30 w/ full rides ITE. Anyway, I honestly don't want to derail this thread because I appreciate what it's doing.

I asked about OCI when I toured NU early november, and the tour guide estimated that around 50% hit on OCI this year (so I guess I'm confirming the previous NU #'s cited as far as they can be confirmed, although it was from a student working for the admissions committee, and if I had to guess, I'd guess they told their tour guides to qualify their esitmate with "well we don't know yet and it may be higher, but among my friends _____").


It depends. Remember, there is still an opportunity cost, even if you're going on a full ride. Even if you take on no tuition debt, it's still costing you $135k+ if you're like a lot of T14 people and have decent prospects with your BA/BS.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:48 pm

On UNC law. It is hard to tell. The only grade cut-offs are top 10 numerically, 10%, 33%, and 50%-so top 33% was and is an important mark-most OCI employers require top third here . I have heard that in previous years top 33% was good enough for big law and based upon my years here that seems to be true. However, asking about potential salary v. grades is difficult. Salaries are polarized. If the market improves, 30% might well get you six figures and you would be over your 70k mark...however, arbitrary that salary is. If not, you might well be clerking for a state court, or the DA's office for 40k. Chances are, playing the odds alone, you will end up in the latter rather than the former.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Mark71121 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:43 pm

i only know of two people at GULC who got BIGLAW and were below top 1/3.

top 1/3 seems to be doing pretty well unless they didn't bid intelligently. i do know of some people with great grades who got shut out because they refused to big anywhere outside of v10s in competitive markets.

all in all, i'd say between 25-30% got biglaw here but it might be closer to 35-40% if you take into account people who transferred in.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:30 pm

Anonymous User wrote:all i said is ~100/450 people are still looking for firm jobs. where did the 80% come from? you got to figure maybe 50 ppl were committed to gov't/PI in the first place, some may have given up (but CS was taking resumes, and it would be simple to just send them your resume and end up on that 100) so...

lol also i really only know my closets friends' grades (and then only a general idea) anyway, so can't speculate on gradez

i posted about NYU


80% at nyu wouldn't surprise me at all. i don't know anyone without a job (who was looking for a firm job) and these aren't mostly law review types, though they do skew older.

and there's no way that 100/450 could be looking for firm jobs, since that would assume that no one is doing public interest, as opposed to the 50 or so that seems more likely.

one interesting trend seems to be high achieving public interest students taking prestigious firm jobs to be safe, knowing that they can't be assured of a COA clerkship or being able to pick up a top firm offer without summering there, if they change their mind.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:53 pm

Mark71121 wrote:i only know of two people at GULC who got BIGLAW and were below top 1/3.

top 1/3 seems to be doing pretty well unless they didn't bid intelligently. i do know of some people with great grades who got shut out because they refused to big anywhere outside of v10s in competitive markets.

all in all, i'd say between 25-30% got biglaw here but it might be closer to 35-40% if you take into account people who transferred in.


I'm at GULC too and would agree with this assessment. There were some very smart people who have great grades, but they only focused on the most prestigious firms in DC... and got locked out. I am barely top 1/3 myself and consider it a mistake to have focused only on DC, even though I did manage to snag a V100 gig... I didn't realize what a risk I was taking until afterwards.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby thedogship » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:i only know of two people at GULC who got BIGLAW and were below top 1/3.

top 1/3 seems to be doing pretty well unless they didn't bid intelligently. i do know of some people with great grades who got shut out because they refused to big anywhere outside of v10s in competitive markets.

all in all, i'd say between 25-30% got biglaw here but it might be closer to 35-40% if you take into account people who transferred in.


I'm at GULC too and would agree with this assessment. There were some very smart people who have great grades, but they only focused on the most prestigious firms in DC... and got locked out. I am barely top 1/3 myself and consider it a mistake to have focused only on DC, even though I did manage to snag a V100 gig... I didn't realize what a risk I was taking until afterwards.


I agree with this too. Sounds like the above poster and I are in the same boat at GULC (although I got an NY gig, not DC). Focusing on DC only this year was a big mistake - some kids had it work out for them, but it was a huge gamble. Career Services did not stress that enough before OCI and certainly not over the summer when kids were submitting their bids. They just said that people should have back up options, and submit bids to their hometown. This was not enough. They should have sent out an email every day for a month that said in huge font "DO NOT APPLY ONLY TO DC JOBS!!!! DO NOT DO IT!!! YOU WILL THANK US LATER!! YOU WILL LIKELY GET SHUT OUT IN DC!" Had they done that, I think a lot of qualified kids wouldn't feel as shitty right now, or at least feel like they were warned a little better. The idea of not being able to get a DC job out of Georgetown still seemed a little silly even in July of this year.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby rondemarino » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:39 pm

Anyone got any idea on Michigan 2Ls? Its the only piece missing to the shaky set of data we have so far :D

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Mark71121 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:12 pm

rondemarino wrote:Anyone got any idea on Michigan 2Ls? Its the only piece missing to the shaky set of data we have so far :D


based on what i've heard, michigan did relatively poorly compared to penn and UVA. makes sense considering chicago firms are really hurting.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:27 pm

wesleybs wrote:I think people are giving CSO's too much power in terms of their ability to know how students are doing jobwise. CSOs only get that information if students report the information. Therefore, while CSO could theoretically get this information if all their students participated in a survey (and accurately reported), it's not like when someone accepts an offer the CSO gets notified. I know UVA's CSO has a survey on Symplicity for students to fill out, but students are not forced to fill it out. While I think CSOs have the best idea of how students are doing, I would not treat them as having absolute access to accurate information regarding 2L hiring.


This. I'm a 2L at DNCW and career services doesn't know anything besides what individual students tell them on a case by case basis. They certainly don't know whether I have a job or not. It's not like I have a microchip embedded in my wrist that they track in real time.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby raveler » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:36 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
wesleybs wrote:I think people are giving CSO's too much power in terms of their ability to know how students are doing jobwise. CSOs only get that information if students report the information. Therefore, while CSO could theoretically get this information if all their students participated in a survey (and accurately reported), it's not like when someone accepts an offer the CSO gets notified. I know UVA's CSO has a survey on Symplicity for students to fill out, but students are not forced to fill it out. While I think CSOs have the best idea of how students are doing, I would not treat them as having absolute access to accurate information regarding 2L hiring.


This. I'm a 2L at DNCW and career services doesn't know anything besides what individual students tell them on a case by case basis. They certainly don't know whether I have a job or not. It's not like I have a microchip embedded in my wrist that they track in real time.


They get info from some firm recruiters about who's gotten offers from that particular firm and who's accepted.

It might not be the most accurate source of data but they aren't completely in the dark.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Hitachi » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:37 pm

Mark71121 wrote:
rondemarino wrote:Anyone got any idea on Michigan 2Ls? Its the only piece missing to the shaky set of data we have so far :D


based on what i've heard, michigan did relatively poorly compared to penn and UVA. makes sense considering chicago firms are really hurting.

What you've heard is probably about as reliable as the anecdotal speculation in this thread.
Michigan's main market is New York, and Chicago is a fairly small fraction of total placement. I also don't think there's anything to suggest that Chicago is doing worse than New York, and certainly not worse than Philly.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Mark71121 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:48 pm

Hitachi wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:
rondemarino wrote:Anyone got any idea on Michigan 2Ls? Its the only piece missing to the shaky set of data we have so far :D


based on what i've heard, michigan did relatively poorly compared to penn and UVA. makes sense considering chicago firms are really hurting.

What you've heard is probably about as reliable as the anecdotal speculation in this thread.
Michigan's main market is New York, and Chicago is a fairly small fraction of total placement. I also don't think there's anything to suggest that Chicago is doing worse than New York, and certainly not worse than Philly.


i don't know where you've been but chicago firms have been completely raped by ITE. i'm almost certain that sidley and winston re-deferred in their chicago offices. chicago firms are bringing in a fraction of what NYC firms are (they always have) and are bringing in even less ITE. here's kirkland's SA 2010 class breakdown:

Northwestern: 11

Chicago: 8

Harvard: 5

Duke: 2

Indiana: 2

Michigan: 2

Notre Dame: 1

Virginia: 1

TOTAL: 32

michigan sending 2 kids to kirkland chicago is absolutely horrendous.

fwiw, i had a ton of NYC callbacks and only saw one michigan student there as opposed to the dozens (literally) i saw from Penn.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby rondemarino » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:00 pm

In years past, Michigan grads ended up in NY more often than they did in in Chicago (link (LinkRemoved)).

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Hitachi » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:09 pm

Even if this were true (one firm based on autoadmit hearsay is hardly conclusive proof), as I said, it doesn't prove much. If 15% of Michigan grads end up in Chicago, compared to 5% of Penn grads, and the Chicago market is 20% worse off than New York, that's a relative employment hit of 2%.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Mark71121 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:12 pm

Hitachi wrote:Even if this were true (one firm based on autoadmit hearsay is hardly conclusive proof), as I said, it doesn't prove much. If 15% of Michigan grads end up in Chicago, compared to 5% of Penn grads, and the Chicago market is 20% worse off than New York, that's a relative employment hit of 2%.


i think you're wrongly assuming that michigan students had the same access to the NYC market as they have had in prior years. i think a lot of NYC offices cut back on flying out to michigan. maybe a michigan student who just went through OCI could confirm or deny this.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 24, 2009 3:43 pm

there were lots of NY firms at mich OCI.

no one really knows the numbers because OCS hasn't given us a clue. anecdotally, 2/3 of the people i know seeking firm employment have a job.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:36 pm

GULC Update:

I received word from the GULC career services folks that about a third of the students have received 2L summer positions at this point. It's just a rough estimate, b/c they haven't received all the data, and some kids haven't even finished going on their call back interviews as of this week, but it's probably more reliable than the 'my-friends-are-my-study-sample' estimates we've had so far.

Encouraging, considering the previous posts. Also encouraging, since I didn't even think OCS would want to release preliminary estimates. For all the cynicism, I think OCS (at least at GULC) has been pretty candid and hardworking this year.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:33 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:all i said is ~100/450 people are still looking for firm jobs. where did the 80% come from? you got to figure maybe 50 ppl were committed to gov't/PI in the first place, some may have given up (but CS was taking resumes, and it would be simple to just send them your resume and end up on that 100) so...

lol also i really only know my closets friends' grades (and then only a general idea) anyway, so can't speculate on gradez

i posted about NYU


80% at nyu wouldn't surprise me at all. i don't know anyone without a job (who was looking for a firm job) and these aren't mostly law review types, though they do skew older.

and there's no way that 100/450 could be looking for firm jobs, since that would assume that no one is doing public interest, as opposed to the 50 or so that seems more likely.

one interesting trend seems to be high achieving public interest students taking prestigious firm jobs to be safe, knowing that they can't be assured of a COA clerkship or being able to pick up a top firm offer without summering there, if they change their mind.


the 100 figure is correct, it is of course not 100/450 its 100/something less

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby mr.undroppable » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:49 pm

Mark71121 wrote:
Hitachi wrote:Even if this were true (one firm based on autoadmit hearsay is hardly conclusive proof), as I said, it doesn't prove much. If 15% of Michigan grads end up in Chicago, compared to 5% of Penn grads, and the Chicago market is 20% worse off than New York, that's a relative employment hit of 2%.


i think you're wrongly assuming that michigan students had the same access to the NYC market as they have had in prior years. i think a lot of NYC offices cut back on flying out to michigan. maybe a michigan student who just went through OCI could confirm or deny this.


Everyone I know who wanted a job in New York (and wasn't delusional) seems to have gotten one - I am sure there are exceptions of people who just got a raw deal, but you could find that anywhere. I think you are wrongly assuming that a tax deductible business trip for recruiting purposes would be the deciding factor in whether or not a firm sends someone to Michigan, either they are hiring or they aren't hiring.

Look, it's bad out there, but you're not going to see one of the T14 all of a sudden drop off the face of the earth because it is not based in a major market. They've consistently been ranked this way over the years for a reason and it's not because Michigan grads were going into Big Detroit Law.

Any numbers in this thread, and certainly any filth you read on autoadmit, are anecdotal at best, trolling at worst. Just be patient and you'll get the numbers soon enough. If you would pick a school because 60% of students got Vault firms over another school who only sent 55% of students into Vault I would suggest to you that you are going to be ultimately unfulfilled with the entire law school process. No school is going to guarantee anything for you, you still have to hustle.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:08 pm

i spoke with the Dean informally a couple weeks ago and he said the number was about 60-75% of michigan 2Ls had jobs lined up for the summer. of course, this doesn't really shed light on how many people got biglaw that wanted it.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:09 pm

Mark71121 wrote:
Hitachi wrote:Even if this were true (one firm based on autoadmit hearsay is hardly conclusive proof), as I said, it doesn't prove much. If 15% of Michigan grads end up in Chicago, compared to 5% of Penn grads, and the Chicago market is 20% worse off than New York, that's a relative employment hit of 2%.


i think you're wrongly assuming that michigan students had the same access to the NYC market as they have had in prior years. i think a lot of NYC offices cut back on flying out to michigan. maybe a michigan student who just went through OCI could confirm or deny this.


I saw Michigan's OCI list. If memory serves me right, there were about the same number of Chicago offices at OCI as NYC offices. There actually might have been slightly more NYC offices than Chicago offices....NYC, Chicago, DC, and California have always been the most popular destinations for Michigan grads. Anecdotally, NYC was probably more popular of a route than Chicago but this might be because there are a lot of East Coasters here. There were also a lot of DC offices. Beyond that, there were LA, SF, Houston, ATL, Dallas, and then secondary markets offices. In total there were around 377 or so offices at OCI. I can't remember the precise number, but I know that the number of offices was around 380.

People at Michigan tend to bid for cities from whatever region they are from, and if they don't take this route, NYC seems more popular of a route. 90% of the students work out of the state, which makes sense since 80% of the students are from OOS. The students are from pretty much every state, mainly from the East Coast, rest of the Midwest, and West Coast (mainly California). Anecdotally, I know more East Coasters than anything else, which probably partly explains the slight preference for NYC.

On another note, it makes sense that Georgetown is doing so poorly - DC is the hardest market to break into, pre ITE or not.

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Re: 2Ls and 2010 Summer Offers (% of class w/offers)

Postby Mark71121 » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:
Hitachi wrote:Even if this were true (one firm based on autoadmit hearsay is hardly conclusive proof), as I said, it doesn't prove much. If 15% of Michigan grads end up in Chicago, compared to 5% of Penn grads, and the Chicago market is 20% worse off than New York, that's a relative employment hit of 2%.


i think you're wrongly assuming that michigan students had the same access to the NYC market as they have had in prior years. i think a lot of NYC offices cut back on flying out to michigan. maybe a michigan student who just went through OCI could confirm or deny this.


I saw Michigan's OCI list. If memory serves me right, there were about the same number of Chicago offices at OCI as NYC offices. There actually might have been slightly more NYC offices than Chicago offices....NYC, Chicago, DC, and California have always been the most popular destinations for Michigan grads. Anecdotally, NYC was probably more popular of a route than Chicago but this might be because there are a lot of East Coasters here. There were also a lot of DC offices. Beyond that, there were LA, SF, Houston, ATL, Dallas, and then secondary markets offices. In total there were around 377 or so offices at OCI. I can't remember the precise number, but I know that the number of offices was around 380.

People at Michigan tend to bid for cities from whatever region they are from, and if they don't take this route, NYC seems more popular of a route. 90% of the students work out of the state, which makes sense since 80% of the students are from OOS. The students are from pretty much every state, mainly from the East Coast, rest of the Midwest, and West Coast (mainly California). Anecdotally, I know more East Coasters than anything else, which probably partly explains the slight preference for NYC.

On another note, it makes sense that Georgetown is doing so poorly - DC is the hardest market to break into, pre ITE or not.



yeah gulc has been thoroughly pwnt by ite.




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