Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

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yeahyeah2121
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby yeahyeah2121 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:25 am

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Last edited by yeahyeah2121 on Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:01 am

yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)



Tell that to the legions of unemployed lawyers from the T50 that couldn't find reasonable employment in 2006 when the economy was good. I'm sure they will be thrilled to hear your brilliant analysis.

Have you also heard that: 'law school opens many doors, well beyond the law-firm career path!!!'

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dresden doll
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:08 am

reasonable_man wrote:
yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)



Tell that to the legions of unemployed lawyers from the T50 that couldn't find reasonable employment in 2006 when the economy was good. I'm sure they will be thrilled to hear your brilliant analysis.

Have you also heard that: 'law school opens many doors, well beyond the law-firm career path!!!'


You clearly haven't heard that everyone is a special and unique flower that will clearly beat probabilities, no matter how skewed against them those probabilities happen to be.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:11 am

dresden doll wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)



Tell that to the legions of unemployed lawyers from the T50 that couldn't find reasonable employment in 2006 when the economy was good. I'm sure they will be thrilled to hear your brilliant analysis.

Have you also heard that: 'law school opens many doors, well beyond the law-firm career path!!!'


You clearly haven't heard that everyone is a special and unique flower that will clearly beat probabilities, no matter how skewed against them those probabilities happen to be.


Ah yes. I do tend to forget that when I post.

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dresden doll
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:13 am

reasonable_man wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)



Tell that to the legions of unemployed lawyers from the T50 that couldn't find reasonable employment in 2006 when the economy was good. I'm sure they will be thrilled to hear your brilliant analysis.

Have you also heard that: 'law school opens many doors, well beyond the law-firm career path!!!'


You clearly haven't heard that everyone is a special and unique flower that will clearly beat probabilities, no matter how skewed against them those probabilities happen to be.


Ah yes. I do tend to forget that when I post.


I tend to forget it's elitist to assert that past a certain point going to LS = epic fail.

Shit, I go to U of C, and I'm not convinced that that won't wind up turning into an epic fail - and I actually really like my classes, too.

articulably suspect
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:55 am

yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)


Although I agree that TLS can be a bit elitist, those examples you gave are the exception and not the rule. Sure a T4 can become very successful(ie making six figures) upon graduation or years down the road, but employment statistics suggest otherwise. If a law school applicant wants to land a six figure job, going to a lower ranked T1 or T2+ isn't advisable. To suggest otherwise would be misleading. I have plenty of stories similar to the ones you mentioned, but I think these individuals are in a small minority of lawyers from T3/4s that landed high paying jobs upon graduation or became extremely successful in their careers(ie making 200, 300, 400, 500K etc). That is assuming that we're associating income or fame with success.

Yes, networking helps a lot. Unfortunately, a lot of Biglaw jobs are obtained through OCI and those firms limit their interviews to certain schools. I think a lot of people relied solely on OCI and got burned. Networking, regardless of ones job interest is priceless, especially ITE. I've found networking in the public sector to be extremely helpful, opening up many doors in the field I'm interested in.

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rondemarino
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:59 am

ejjones wrote:
yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)


Although I agree that TLS can be a bit elitist, those examples you gave are the exception and not the rule. Sure a T4 can become very successful(ie making six figures) upon graduation or years down the road, but employment statistics suggest otherwise. If a law school applicant wants to land a six figure job, going to a lower ranked T1 or T2+ isn't advisable. To suggest otherwise would be misleading. I have plenty of stories similar to the ones you mentioned, but I think these individuals are in a small minority of lawyers from T3/4s that landed high paying jobs upon graduation or became extremely successful in their careers(ie making 200, 300, 400, 500K etc). That is assuming that we're associating income or fame with success.

Yes, networking helps a lot. Unfortunately, a lot of Biglaw jobs are obtained through OCI and those firms limit their interviews to certain schools. I think a lot of people relied solely on OCI and got burned. Networking, regardless of ones job interest is priceless, especially ITE. I've found networking in the public sector to be extremely helpful, opening up many doors in the field I'm interested in.


Gigi weighs in (link).

articulably suspect
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:04 am

rondemarino wrote:
ejjones wrote:
yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)


Although I agree that TLS can be a bit elitist, those examples you gave are the exception and not the rule. Sure a T4 can become very successful(ie making six figures) upon graduation or years down the road, but employment statistics suggest otherwise. If a law school applicant wants to land a six figure job, going to a lower ranked T1 or T2+ isn't advisable. To suggest otherwise would be misleading. I have plenty of stories similar to the ones you mentioned, but I think these individuals are in a small minority of lawyers from T3/4s that landed high paying jobs upon graduation or became extremely successful in their careers(ie making 200, 300, 400, 500K etc). That is assuming that we're associating income or fame with success.

Yes, networking helps a lot. Unfortunately, a lot of Biglaw jobs are obtained through OCI and those firms limit their interviews to certain schools. I think a lot of people relied solely on OCI and got burned. Networking, regardless of ones job interest is priceless, especially ITE. I've found networking in the public sector to be extremely helpful, opening up many doors in the field I'm interested in.


Gigi weighs in (link).


:lol:

06072010
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby 06072010 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:28 am

Kant wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Um, ToTransferOrNot destroyed 1L and is now at a T6, IIRC.



So he says......


You are a grade A dipshit.

kdawg666
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby kdawg666 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:38 am

If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).

nycparalegal
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby nycparalegal » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:40 am

yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)


I'm guessing that close family friend has been out of school for awhile and your buddy who graduated 2 years ago, good for him. He beat the odds. For every $200k 26 yr old, there are maybe 100 who don't make it.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby MC Southstar » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:46 am

kdawg666 wrote:If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).


I hear this a lot but clarify please.

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AlanShore
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby AlanShore » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:50 am

I'm luckily not going to graduate with any debt (or at worst, <20k). So when TLS says that going to a non t-14 is really awful because of the lack of good jobs.. does that also apply if you don't have much debt to pay off? I'd be happy with a 60k job. I'm tooking at t40 schools so I know my chances at biglaw are obviously lower.. but I just want to practice law. Is this naive?

wildcats2008
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby wildcats2008 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:52 am

I think someone mentioned earlier that healthcare was a good field to get into due to job security plus income. I would argue that academia is quite appealing, depending on your field. The income is not all that great, but the perks are unbeatable.

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AlanShore
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby AlanShore » Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:52 am

wildcats2008 wrote:I think someone mentioned earlier that healthcare was a good field to get into due to job security plus income. I would argue that academia is quite appealing, depending on your field. The income is not all that great, but the perks are unbeatable.

academia is the worst! finding a job is IMPOSSIBLE and it may require you to relocate to some undesirable place.

nycparalegal
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby nycparalegal » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:01 pm

AlanShore wrote:I'm luckily not going to graduate with any debt (or at worst, <20k). So when TLS says that going to a non t-14 is really awful because of the lack of good jobs.. does that also apply if you don't have much debt to pay off? I'd be happy with a 60k job. I'm tooking at t40 schools so I know my chances at biglaw are obviously lower.. but I just want to practice law. Is this naive?


No Alan, this wouldn't apply to you. If you can get out of a non t14 law school with less than 20,000 debt that you are fine.

Most people wouldn't go to a non-t14 for the obvious reason that your paying t-14 rates for an education where you will only be making as much as some undergraduates. The debt is the problem not the schooling.

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nealric
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby nealric » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:03 pm

This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old.


And I heard about someone in the ghetto winning the lottery. Everyone go buy lottery tickets now!

kdawg666
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby kdawg666 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:18 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).


I hear this a lot but clarify please.



I have an EE background and am getting a law degree part time at a top 30 law school. Already work for a law firm as a patent agent making over 6 figures.

And it would be fairly easy to go somewhere else.

threeonefour
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby threeonefour » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:30 pm

ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
im hoping that the Economy is like Birdman, who bought a pound of blow and bounced back.



best TLS post i've seen.

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rondemarino
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:31 pm

kdawg666 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).


I hear this a lot but clarify please.



I have an EE background and am getting a law degree part time at a top 30 law school. Already work for a law firm as a patent agent making over 6 figures.

And it would be fairly easy to go somewhere else.


Out of curiosity, do a lot of firms in DC hire patent agents who work part-time, but go to school full time? If yes, do you know what the hourly rate is?

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MC Southstar
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby MC Southstar » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:35 pm

kdawg666 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).


I hear this a lot but clarify please.



I have an EE background and am getting a law degree part time at a top 30 law school. Already work for a law firm as a patent agent making over 6 figures.

And it would be fairly easy to go somewhere else.


EE is supposedly the most desired of the patent majors, so your experience might be specific. Anyway, I'm taking the patent bar in the near future.

kdawg666
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby kdawg666 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:40 pm

rondemarino wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).


I hear this a lot but clarify please.



I have an EE background and am getting a law degree part time at a top 30 law school. Already work for a law firm as a patent agent making over 6 figures.

And it would be fairly easy to go somewhere else.


Out of curiosity, do a lot of firms in DC hire patent agents who work part-time, but go to school full time? If yes, do you know what the hourly rate is?


rather not say hourly rate. But from what I have seen it is pretty common to hire someone part-time and pay for there law school at the same time.

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CE2JD
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby CE2JD » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:32 pm

rondemarino wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:If you have an engineering background and somewhat decent grades, both in undergrad and in law school, you will easily get a job for 100k+ starting (EASILY).


I hear this a lot but clarify please.



I have an EE background and am getting a law degree part time at a top 30 law school. Already work for a law firm as a patent agent making over 6 figures.

And it would be fairly easy to go somewhere else.


Out of curiosity, do a lot of firms in DC hire patent agents who work part-time, but go to school full time? If yes, do you know what the hourly rate is?


Outside of OCIs, firms aren't hiring anyone who doesn't have at least 2 years of prior patent prosecution experience, whether they be an agent, attorney, part-time, or full-time applicant.

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rondemarino
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:52 pm

CE2JD wrote:
rondemarino wrote:
kdawg666 wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:

I have an EE background and am getting a law degree part time at a top 30 law school. Already work for a law firm as a patent agent making over 6 figures.

And it would be fairly easy to go somewhere else.


Out of curiosity, do a lot of firms in DC hire patent agents who work part-time, but go to school full time? If yes, do you know what the hourly rate is?


Outside of OCIs, firms aren't hiring anyone who doesn't have at least 2 years of prior patent prosecution experience, whether they be an agent, attorney, part-time, or full-time applicant.


I kind of figured. Hopefully the 2 years of experience I will accumulate by start of law school will still be good enough.

Kant
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Kant » Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:20 pm

dresden doll wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
yeahyeah2121 wrote:This site is so skewed. Someone in my close family went to a T4 school in the ghetto and now makes over $300K. I also know someone who graduate from Rutgers Camden 2 years ago and now makes over $200K as a 26 year old. Yes, a degree from a highly ranked school may start you off in a better situation than someone coming from a lesser ranked school, but by no means are you limited to what your starting salary or position (to an extent). From what I understand being personable, making connections, and working the system to your advantage will carry you a long when in the field of law. I may just be naive but I don't think its doomsday for everyone applying outside the T14. We can't all go to Harvard :)



Tell that to the legions of unemployed lawyers from the T50 that couldn't find reasonable employment in 2006 when the economy was good. I'm sure they will be thrilled to hear your brilliant analysis.

Have you also heard that: 'law school opens many doors, well beyond the law-firm career path!!!'


You clearly haven't heard that everyone is a special and unique flower that will clearly beat probabilities, no matter how skewed against them those probabilities happen to be.



Cream always rises to the crop. Being unique does not mean a damn. But being the best does. From what I have seen on this board, either this site is full of liars or T14 acceptance and intelligence does not correlate.




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