Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

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Rurik
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Rurik » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:37 pm

rayiner wrote:
I have never heard of a M.D. complain about job security. They do complain if they make less than 150-200K/year.


This. Plus, MD's are a lot smarter than JDs.


I'm planning on an MD+JD, so I can diagnose people badly and then charge exorbitant prices to make up their will.

How smart am I?

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:46 pm

shadowfrost000 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
I have never heard of a M.D. complain about job security. They do complain if they make less than 150-200K/year.


This. Plus, MD's are a lot smarter than JDs.


If by smarter you mean workaholic android, then yes, I agree.


http://www.washington.edu/uaa/gateway/a ... pamcat.pdf
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/mcat/

Nearly every med school, outside ones at historically black colleges, has a 3.65+ median GPA in a hard science and an MCAT in the 80th+ percentile (equivalent to a 160 LSAT). For reference, 3.65/161 are UF's medians, which straddles the top 50 boundary. So the bottom of the med school hierarchy corresponds roughly the top third of the law school hierarchy.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby soullesswonder » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:48 pm

swheat wrote:according to this article, the career outlook for ALL Americans may really be bad:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/11/news/in ... tm?cnn=yes


Bunch of gross speculation without any solid evidence.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Nom Sawyer » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:50 pm

rayiner wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
I have never heard of a M.D. complain about job security. They do complain if they make less than 150-200K/year.


This. Plus, MD's are a lot smarter than JDs.


If by smarter you mean workaholic android, then yes, I agree.


http://www.washington.edu/uaa/gateway/a ... pamcat.pdf
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/mcat/

Nearly every med school, outside ones at historically black colleges, has a 3.65+ median GPA in a hard science and an MCAT in the 80th+ percentile (equivalent to a 160 LSAT). For reference, 3.65/161 are UF's medians, which straddles the top 50 boundary. So the bottom of the med school hierarchy corresponds roughly the top third of the law school hierarchy.


Well the thing is there are way fewer spots for MDs each year than law students... there's no equivalent of T3/T4 schools, so yeah the average MD student has stats much closer to the average say Top35~50 law student.

Tons of people who want to go to med school don't get in each year, not true for law school, if you want to go you almost always can find somewhere to take you.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby MC Southstar » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:52 pm

rayiner wrote:
shadowfrost000 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
I have never heard of a M.D. complain about job security. They do complain if they make less than 150-200K/year.


This. Plus, MD's are a lot smarter than JDs.


If by smarter you mean workaholic android, then yes, I agree.


http://www.washington.edu/uaa/gateway/a ... pamcat.pdf
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/mcat/

Nearly every med school, outside ones at historically black colleges, has a 3.65+ median GPA in a hard science and an MCAT in the 80th+ percentile (equivalent to a 160 LSAT). For reference, 3.65/161 are UF's medians, which straddles the top 50 boundary. So the bottom of the med school hierarchy corresponds roughly the top third of the law school hierarchy.


You're preaching to the choir here. Med schools limit their enrollment enough to pick the top people. Even at "unranked" med schools, the students are really smart and hard working. I would argue, however, that most people that go to med school are the ones who had the romantic dream of going there in the first place (which is a LOT of people). They know that med schools demand top grades, certain academic focus, and all around competency in life and social activities. This is not the case for law school, which might be all the better. Law is an aimless nerd's last resort. Medicine is a science nerd's self-important obsession.

Either way, I do not envy the lifestyle or the field of study of a doctor in the least. It's a really sacrificial way to get money and respect. They also have no other option other than being a doctor for the rest of their life.
Last edited by MC Southstar on Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rocketman11
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Rocketman11 » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:55 pm

If you want job security, get into one of these three fields:

Health
Energy
IT

I keep hearing that engineering is safe, but my dad (electrical eng) and uncle (civil eng) are both really struggling with furloughs and pay cuts... so I don't know where all this talk is coming from.

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby jason8821 » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:08 pm

That article is pretty eye opening. It seems that the struggle is between those who want to believe that a professional degree should allow one to live comfortably in the upper middle class vs. the reality that it is more than possible to be a middle class doctor, and an attorney who can barely afford to pay rent and student loans.

At one point in time, it seems that those deemed intellectually superior were rewarded more. This is because there was a smaller percentage of J.D's, and other doctoral degrees. Now it's as if advanced degrees only play a small role in the overall equation. For instance, I have heard people talk about joining the FBI on this board. I believe the FBI would would be more likely hire someone who was free of drug use/criminal record and had perfect credit who also had a 3.5+ in a degree like economics at an average undergrad over a HYS graduate who was student athlete in college, but had a few underages, and had a loan go into default a few years ago.

This is not just the FBI, but several government agencies, and even some private jobs will look at all of these issues when evaluating a candidate. It does not seem fair because 95% people drink before the age of 21 and could be caught, and plenty of people deal with financial troubles, but it is the case and a lot of people who are pushed to get advanced degrees do not take everything into consideration, and then everything hits them when entering the real world.

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Rocketman11
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Rocketman11 » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:13 pm

Given law salaries are tanking, I had hoped that fewer people would apply to law school, given it is no longer the surefire way to big money. I think the increase in LSAT takers and (likely) applicants is because people are ignorant of the legal market situation right now. Which makes the problem worse.

ownt

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:36 pm

ntzsch wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:
Cupidity wrote:Non T-14 students will have to settle for regional jobs, thats all. If you are going to UCLA, you'll make six figures in LA, but don't even dream about NYC these days.



making 6 figures out of UCLA is unlikely ITE.


so UGA's (class of '08) average (not median) salary of 90,000 is just the product of a few ppl who made 250,000?

edit: because it would seem that quite a few ppl would need 100,000+ salaries to make 200 ppl have an average of 90,000 when a lot (or most) of the ppl make 40,000ish.

Is there a publication with median not average salaries?


It's a function of small reporting percentage.

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:45 pm

ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ntzsch wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:

making 6 figures out of UCLA is unlikely ITE.


so UGA's (class of '08) average (not median) salary of 90,000 is just the product of a few ppl who made 250,000?

edit: because it would seem that quite a few ppl would need 100,000+ salaries to make 200 ppl have an average of 90,000 when a lot (or most) of the ppl make 40,000ish.

Is there a publication with median not average salaries?


It's a function of small reporting percentage.



not sure about that. 203 in '08 class, 193 reported. --LinkRemoved--


That's the total survey response rate. What percentage of those reported salaries?

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98234872348
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby 98234872348 » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:53 pm

ntzsch wrote:not sure about that. 203 in '08 class, 193 reported. --LinkRemoved--

UGA Law>>>Toyko, Japan...

That man, even if he is making 40K, is my hero.

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Mark71121 » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:11 pm

uga is one of those schools that are particularly fucked by ITE. virtually zero prospects outside of atlanta, a city that has a crumbling legal market. plus you have to deal with T14+Emory and Vandy kids with Atlanta ties.

if there are more than 7 or 8 people getting BIGLAW from UGA i'd be shocked.

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:12 pm

ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ntzsch wrote:

not sure about that. 203 in '08 class, 193 reported. --LinkRemoved--


That's the total survey response rate. What percentage of those reported salaries?


if what you are implying is true, then that is some sketchy shit.

i assumed that response rate was commensurate with rate of reporting salaries. i mean, if not, really sketch.


If it sounds too good to be true...

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:17 pm

ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
That's the total survey response rate. What percentage of those reported salaries?


if what you are implying is true, then that is some sketchy shit.

i assumed that response rate was commensurate with rate of reporting salaries. i mean, if not, really sketch.


If it sounds too good to be true...


ehh. 90,000 doesn't seem too far fetched for a T35.

but i am a naive 0L, looking at UGA so...


Well it is. It was before ITE, and it certainly is now. At the lower T14, nearly half the students struck out of 2L OCI entirely. They'd love to get $90k secondary-market big/midlaw jobs.

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:25 pm

ntzsch wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Well it is. It was before ITE, and it certainly is now. At the lower T14, nearly half the students struck out of 2L OCI entirely. They'd love to get $90k secondary-market big/midlaw jobs.


i will accept your claims as factual and still believe in my own reality where i graduate top 30% at a T35 with a 90K job.


You're welcome to be optimistic. The available data suggests that the lower T14 are placing the way the strong regionals used to, while the strong regionals are placing the way the lower-T50 secondary regionals used to.

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James Bond
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby James Bond » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:41 pm

ntzsch, it ain't my birthday but I got my name on the cake

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby SteelReserve » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:10 pm

To start out in the low 30's to do what you really want to do is not THAT bad.


Respect the sentiment and your point, but I was just wondering what factors led you to know being a lawyer is exactly what you would really like to do?

Lawyers, at least at the beginning of their careers (and especially if doing firm work) do two things: 1) Research statutory/case law on an online database and 2) Draft documents/motions based on that research and analyzing tons of paper documents (such as depositions, doctor evaluations, contracts, etc.) If that is what you REALLY want to do and have tried it out in an internship somewhere, very well.

It's not a bad gig if you land a job that pays well, but I would highly recommend to anyone that they do an internship somewhere to get a real sense of the situation. Did you like writing term papers in college?

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Kant » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:16 pm

No. If you are inside the top 30 you are still fine. Hell if you are in the top 100 you are probably still fine. The ppl that tell you otherwise have a security complex.

AKA, they are not smart, but desperately want to feel smart and want others to think that they are smart, so they want T14 very badly.

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:36 pm

Kant wrote:No. If you are inside the top 30 you are still fine. Hell if you are in the top 100 you are probably still fine. The ppl that tell you otherwise have a security complex.

AKA, they are not smart, but desperately want to feel smart and want others to think that they are smart, so they want T14 very badly.


Tell that to the 50% of the people in the T14 who struck out at OCI this year.

Christ, tell that to the ~30-40% of people at Chicago who struck out at OCI this year. Many of these people have ~180k in law school debt, not including interest.

Tell that to people in the top 1-5% at Wisconsin that struck out of OCI (even for Wisconsin firms, and even people who grew up in Wisconsin) this year. Out-of-staters at Wisconsin will have well over $100k in debt if they are paying full-tuition, but even in-staters could have 70k+.

Top 100? You're out of your bloody mind.

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:40 pm

Loyola chicago....graduate in top 10% of class, which isn't that difficult for all these smart kids, and you will have a job.

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby James Bond » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:41 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Kant wrote:No. If you are inside the top 30 you are still fine. Hell if you are in the top 100 you are probably still fine. The ppl that tell you otherwise have a security complex.

AKA, they are not smart, but desperately want to feel smart and want others to think that they are smart, so they want T14 very badly.


Tell that to the 50% of the people in the T14 who struck out at OCI this year.

Christ, tell that to the ~30-40% of people at Chicago who struck out at OCI this year. Many of these people have ~180k in law school debt, not including interest.

Tell that to people in the top 1-5% at Wisconsin that struck out of OCI (even for Wisconsin firms, and even people who grew up in Wisconsin) this year. Out-of-staters at Wisconsin will have well over $100k in debt if they are paying full-tuition, but even in-staters could have 70k+.

Top 100? You're out of your bloody mind.


While I agree with you to a point, it's not all about OCI and OMGBIGLAW. These people who "struck out" at biglaw could probably still get a job at a DA's office or a PD's even if they'd just be willing to work for less money than the uber salaries

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:45 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Loyola chicago....graduate in top 10% of class, which isn't that difficult for all these smart kids, and you will have a job.


1.) lol@anon posting.
2.) Being in the top 10% of any law school isn't "easy," because a huge part of the grading process is pure dumb luck.
3.) I know of people in the top 10% at both Loyola and Kent that will be happy with unpaid gigs for this coming summer, and don't have anticipation of making much after graduation.

bivons--keep in mind, many DA/PD offices are in complete hiring freezes right now, and probably will be for quite some time. Also, there are a fair number of people who really *want* those public interest gigs--and interviewers do push pretty hard on that point. Everything certainly isn't about biglaw, and IBR+debt forgiveness can certainly make public interest gigs worth it (though, I don't know if I would trust the funding for those programs to stay in place... obviously, that is speculation though) but paying off $180k of loans on a $40k salary isn't a particularly wonderful prospect.

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby Kant » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:48 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Loyola chicago....graduate in top 10% of class, which isn't that difficult for all these smart kids, and you will have a job.


1.) lol@anon posting.
2.) Being in the top 10% of any law school isn't "easy," because a huge part of the grading process is pure dumb luck.
3.) I know of people in the top 10% at both Loyola and Kent that will be happy with unpaid gigs for this coming summer, and don't have anticipation of making much after graduation.

bivons--keep in mind, many DA/PD offices are in complete hiring freezes right now, and probably will be for quite some time. Also, there are a fair number of people who really *want* those public interest gigs--and interviewers do push pretty hard on that point. Everything certainly isn't about biglaw, and IBR+debt forgiveness can certainly make public interest gigs worth it (though, I don't know if I would trust the funding for those programs to stay in place... obviously, that is speculation though) but paying off $180k of loans on a $40k salary isn't a particularly wonderful prospect.



Ummmm the median is 60 thousand. Look your school only gets you so far, after that you gotta grow a pair.

2) sounds like someone who didn't do to well

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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby underachiever » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:55 pm

It is hell out there, I'm 1L at a T14 school that did pretty well (based purely on anecdotal evidence) compared to peer schools and its still much more stressful this year that it has been before (so I have been told). The legal market is in shambles and while recovery would be great, getting the economy to stabilize over the next 9 months before our OCI is all I am hoping for. However, with talk of "W" a, or double recession, this stability does not sound to promising.
Now, I'm looking at a 100K in debt for 3yrs at a pretty good school and I'm scared, I could not imagine going to a school outside of the top T14 in this economy, unless your debt is going to be less then 80K for the 3 yrs...unless you have a "guaranteed" job waiting on the other side. Its just insane b/c the legal market is WAY too over saturated and the ABA, like the joke they are, has done everything to cause this problem and the only way they can fix it is to start nailing law school doors shut! But they won't b/c they have nio spines and enjoy money more then they enjoy having employed members or a prestigious profession. B/c the people who take out 100K + loans for Northern Ohio Law and Nova Southeastern Law are never going to be able to pay those loans off and its not a gamble anymore for the 6 figure job, its playing Russian Roulette with a fully loaded revolver.

Sorry for the rant, now back to Property reading

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rayiner
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Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rayiner » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:55 pm

Kant wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:Loyola chicago....graduate in top 10% of class, which isn't that difficult for all these smart kids, and you will have a job.


1.) lol@anon posting.
2.) Being in the top 10% of any law school isn't "easy," because a huge part of the grading process is pure dumb luck.
3.) I know of people in the top 10% at both Loyola and Kent that will be happy with unpaid gigs for this coming summer, and don't have anticipation of making much after graduation.

bivons--keep in mind, many DA/PD offices are in complete hiring freezes right now, and probably will be for quite some time. Also, there are a fair number of people who really *want* those public interest gigs--and interviewers do push pretty hard on that point. Everything certainly isn't about biglaw, and IBR+debt forgiveness can certainly make public interest gigs worth it (though, I don't know if I would trust the funding for those programs to stay in place... obviously, that is speculation though) but paying off $180k of loans on a $40k salary isn't a particularly wonderful prospect.



Ummmm the median is 60 thousand. Look your school only gets you so far, after that you gotta grow a pair.

2) sounds like someone who didn't do to well


Um, ToTransferOrNot destroyed 1L and is now at a T6, IIRC.




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