Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

(On Campus Interviews, Summer Associate positions, Firm Reviews, Tips, ...)
Forum rules
Anonymous Posting

Anonymous posting is only appropriate when you are revealing sensitive employment related information about a firm, job, etc. You may anonymously respond on topic to these threads. Unacceptable uses include: harassing another user, joking around, testing the feature, or other things that are more appropriate in the lounge.

Failure to follow these rules will get you outed, warned, or banned.
articulably suspect
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:01 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:19 am

irishman86 wrote:
nealric wrote:
You can pay rent + utilities + food + transportation + taxes for $2K/month? (Anywhere, let alone NY?)


I'm unsure of whether this was sarcastic or not, but the budget went something like this:

Rent + Utilities: $450 (it was a hostel)
Food: $300/mo
Transportation: $80/mo (subway pass)
$130 left to spare for all other things

I wasn't counting taxes- $1k was the budget. But taxes are pretty darn low when you make $25k/yr.

What are these $70K jobs? I seriously do not know.


Mostly federal government.


Most people don't count living in a hostel "living."

Also, people should stop throwing around "LRAP" so much, as if it is an easy solution. If there are no jobs available, you aren't going to get LRAP. Last I heard it's hard to get a qualifying PI job for LRAP.


What is a qualifying PI job?

articulably suspect
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:01 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:46 am

rayiner wrote:
These areas kind of have the view of "You can believe and do whatever you want--just be polite and don't expect us to [strike]agree with it[/strike] make you feel welcome around these parts."


Yup. People in the south rarely talk politics, etc, and will be courteous to you even if inside they think you're going to burn for all eternity. I find this preferable places where people hold and publicly share opinions that go beyond which American Idol should win.


fixed
Last edited by articulably suspect on Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:47 am

rayiner wrote:
The bottom half of the class at Northwestern or Georgetown can find a $70k job (or a job that qualifies for LRAP) if they don't let their high expectations bite them in the butt, even ITE


You say this based on what?

1/3 of C/O 2009 got deferred, and a lot of those folks will never get offers. Those folks went to schools ranging through the whole T14. They'll be rushing for those $70k jobs...


So those folks deferred by biglaw couldn't pass their resumes about in secondary markets and find something at least $70k with a T14 degree if they really wanted a job for sure? I just pulled the 70k figure out of thin air. My guess is that the number is probably higher than that. There's a difference between holding out for/only looking for biglaw jobs and not having the option of getting any other job. Furthermore, it's not like all those people that are deferred and end up actually working are going to the poorhouse.

User avatar
rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:53 am

JCougar wrote:
rayiner wrote:
The bottom half of the class at Northwestern or Georgetown can find a $70k job (or a job that qualifies for LRAP) if they don't let their high expectations bite them in the butt, even ITE


You say this based on what?

1/3 of C/O 2009 got deferred, and a lot of those folks will never get offers. Those folks went to schools ranging through the whole T14. They'll be rushing for those $70k jobs...


So those folks deferred by biglaw couldn't pass their resumes about in secondary markets and find something at least $70k with a T14 degree if they really wanted a job for sure? I just pulled the 70k figure out of thin air. My guess is that the number is probably higher than that. There's a difference between holding out for/only looking for biglaw jobs and not having the option of getting any other job. Furthermore, it's not like all those people that are deferred and end up actually working are going to the poorhouse.


Can you post this in the OCI Callbacks thread?

EDIT: I work at a small IP boutique in SoCal. In normal years, we were able to only hire a couple of UCLA/USC grads, but a ton of USD grads. Now we have a lot of T14 resumes that we don't bother with because no one thinks its worth the time training people who will end up leaving in a 1-2 years when the economy picks. It would not surprise me one bit if a lot of firms in secondary markets did this too.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:57 am

rondemarino wrote:- You should watch the MLB baseball draft.


Yes, because this is a really typical career scenario.

rondemarino wrote:- By your logic, we should all be happy for making what the average person after three years of graduate study makes or the average person in the "rest of the world" makes? This is hilarious.


I was inferring the former, but people's happiness is up to them. I just don't have a ton of sympathy for people who whine about how horrible of a scenario it would be if they ended up only making $55k to start out their career. It's not optimal when you factor in school debt, but it's not like you have to suffer, either. I live pretty comfortably making just under $40k right now. I don't have a family for now, but I'm able to put about 15% of my income into savings, I travel a lot, and I go out a lot on weekends. This includes paying off my graduate school loans. If I made an extra $15k per year, my school debt would have nearly vanished by now. If you know how to manage money, $55k is a fine starting salary.

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:00 am

JCougar wrote:
rayiner wrote:
The bottom half of the class at Northwestern or Georgetown can find a $70k job (or a job that qualifies for LRAP) if they don't let their high expectations bite them in the butt, even ITE


You say this based on what?

1/3 of C/O 2009 got deferred, and a lot of those folks will never get offers. Those folks went to schools ranging through the whole T14. They'll be rushing for those $70k jobs...


So those folks deferred by biglaw couldn't pass their resumes about in secondary markets and find something at least $70k with a T14 degree if they really wanted a job for sure? I just pulled the 70k figure out of thin air. My guess is that the number is probably higher than that. There's a difference between holding out for/only looking for biglaw jobs and not having the option of getting any other job. Furthermore, it's not like all those people that are deferred and end up actually working are going to the poorhouse.


You're so incredibly off-base with this.

There are piles of people that are flat-out unemployed right now. To find a job in a secondary market, you need to have some plausible connection to that market to evidence the fact that you're not going to bolt the first chance you get.

You're also assuming that firms in true "secondary markets" (what do you mean by this? Milwaukee as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job in Milwaukee right now. Rockford (2nd largest city in Illinois) as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job there. Waukesha, a little town in Wisconsin that the largest firms don't even start people at 70k? Impossible to find a job there, too. That's for people who were deferred out of UW-Wisconsin, by the way--folks who, considering they got biglaw through OCI at Wisconsin were toward, at least, the top 20% of the class.

Your T14 degree isn't going to make you more marketable to a Waukesha firm than a Wisconsin degree will, unless you're a Waukesha kid. Deferred associates are absolute damaged goods, because it is generally assumed that you're going to bolt ASAP. PI jobs are hard to find because biglaw is paying their deferred associates stipends to work those PI jobs--they aren't doing the same for small firm gigs.

You vastly overestimate the number of jobs that are out there between market and the $40ish-k range.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:03 am

rondemarino wrote:Can you post this in the OCI Callbacks thread?

EDIT: I work at a small IP boutique in SoCal. In normal years, we were able to only hire a couple of UCLA/USC grads, but a ton of USD grads. Now we have a lot of T14 resumes that we don't bother with because no one thinks its worth the time training people who will end up leaving in a 1-2 years when the economy picks. It would not surprise me one bit if a lot of firms in secondary markets did this too.


If you really were committed to staying at these firms, and you either had family in the area or convinced them that you intended to stay for sure, I'm sure you'd find some takers. Like I said, there's a difference between wanting to hold out until you get a biglaw job while complaining that you have no options and actually finding a job somewhere else that might not pay as much initially, but could leave you in a decent position down the road.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:06 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:You're so incredibly off-base with this.

There are piles of people that are flat-out unemployed right now. To find a job in a secondary market, you need to have some plausible connection to that market to evidence the fact that you're not going to bolt the first chance you get.

You're also assuming that firms in true "secondary markets" (what do you mean by this? Milwaukee as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job in Milwaukee right now. Rockford (2nd largest city in Illinois) as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job there. Waukesha, a little town in Wisconsin that the largest firms don't even start people at 70k? Impossible to find a job there, too. That's for people who were deferred out of UW-Wisconsin, by the way--folks who, considering they got biglaw through OCI at Wisconsin were toward, at least, the top 20% of the class.

Your T14 degree isn't going to make you more marketable to a Waukesha firm than a Wisconsin degree will, unless you're a Waukesha kid. Deferred associates are absolute damaged goods, because it is generally assumed that you're going to bolt ASAP. PI jobs are hard to find because biglaw is paying their deferred associates stipends to work those PI jobs--they aren't doing the same for small firm gigs.

You vastly overestimate the number of jobs that are out there between market and the $40ish-k range.


I just don't believe this. I can't believe that firms wouldn't hire you if you actually were serious about staying and you showed it. Maybe a few wouldn't, but if you tried hard enough, you'd eventually get some hits.

User avatar
rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:08 am

JCougar wrote:
rondemarino wrote:- You should watch the MLB baseball draft.


Yes, because this is a really typical career scenario.


The analogy, as it relates to the pricing of unproven talent, is quite apt. Today's first year associates are tomorrow's senior associates who can bill out at rates sufficient to pad a partner's paycheck. They wouldn't be paying these ridiculous sums if the return wasn't justified.

rondemarino wrote:- By your logic, we should all be happy for making what the average person after three years of graduate study makes or the average person in the "rest of the world" makes? This is hilarious.


JCougar wrote:I was inferring the former, but people's happiness is up to them. I just don't have a ton of sympathy for people who whine about how horrible of a scenario it would be if they ended up only making $55k to start out their career. It's not optimal when you factor in school debt, but it's not like you have to suffer, either. I live pretty comfortably making just under $40k right now. I don't have a family for now, but I'm able to put about 15% of my income into savings, I travel a lot, and I go out a lot on weekends. This includes paying off my graduate school loans. If I made an extra $15k per year, my school debt would have nearly vanished by now. If you know how to manage money, $55k is a fine starting salary.


I don't understand why you expect everyone to conform to your expectations. Believe it or not, I'm not a Big Law-or-killself type. I ED'ed to a school I'd be happy at (not T14) even though my numbers were good enough at more than a couple of T14s. If firms had a lifestyle track - $90k and 1600 billable hours - I'd take it. But I don't presume that people want what I want. Moreover, if you came up in a system where "prestige" was key to opportunities, you can see why people would be wary about accepting a less than prestigious $55k job, right?

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:10 am

dresden doll wrote:FTW. Seven years of higher education and thousands of dollars in debt bloody well justify desire for a decent paycheck.


You should get a decent paycheck. $55k is a decent paycheck, especially in the first year of your career.

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:12 am

JCougar wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You're so incredibly off-base with this.

There are piles of people that are flat-out unemployed right now. To find a job in a secondary market, you need to have some plausible connection to that market to evidence the fact that you're not going to bolt the first chance you get.

You're also assuming that firms in true "secondary markets" (what do you mean by this? Milwaukee as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job in Milwaukee right now. Rockford (2nd largest city in Illinois) as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job there. Waukesha, a little town in Wisconsin that the largest firms don't even start people at 70k? Impossible to find a job there, too. That's for people who were deferred out of UW-Wisconsin, by the way--folks who, considering they got biglaw through OCI at Wisconsin were toward, at least, the top 20% of the class.

Your T14 degree isn't going to make you more marketable to a Waukesha firm than a Wisconsin degree will, unless you're a Waukesha kid. Deferred associates are absolute damaged goods, because it is generally assumed that you're going to bolt ASAP. PI jobs are hard to find because biglaw is paying their deferred associates stipends to work those PI jobs--they aren't doing the same for small firm gigs.

You vastly overestimate the number of jobs that are out there between market and the $40ish-k range.


I just don't believe this. I can't believe that firms wouldn't hire you if you actually were serious about staying and you showed it. Maybe a few wouldn't, but if you tried hard enough, you'd eventually get some hits.


I'm sorry? You "just don't believe this"? How much experience do you have dealing with hiring in the current legal environment? How many hiring partners do you know? How many deferred biglaw people do you know? If the answer to any of those questions is "less than a lot," then you know less about the environment than me, and a lot of the other people in this thread that are telling you that you're wrong.

Don't believe it if you don't want to, but you're flat-out wrong, and you're going to be in for one hell of a rude awakening. Those 55k jobs you keep prattling about? They exist, but they're not just out there for the pickings.

articulably suspect
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:01 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:14 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
JCougar wrote:
rayiner wrote:
The bottom half of the class at Northwestern or Georgetown can find a $70k job (or a job that qualifies for LRAP) if they don't let their high expectations bite them in the butt, even ITE


You say this based on what?

1/3 of C/O 2009 got deferred, and a lot of those folks will never get offers. Those folks went to schools ranging through the whole T14. They'll be rushing for those $70k jobs...


So those folks deferred by biglaw couldn't pass their resumes about in secondary markets and find something at least $70k with a T14 degree if they really wanted a job for sure? I just pulled the 70k figure out of thin air. My guess is that the number is probably higher than that. There's a difference between holding out for/only looking for biglaw jobs and not having the option of getting any other job. Furthermore, it's not like all those people that are deferred and end up actually working are going to the poorhouse.


You're so incredibly off-base with this.

There are piles of people that are flat-out unemployed right now. To find a job in a secondary market, you need to have some plausible connection to that market to evidence the fact that you're not going to bolt the first chance you get.

You're also assuming that firms in true "secondary markets" (what do you mean by this? Milwaukee as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job in Milwaukee right now. Rockford (2nd largest city in Illinois) as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job there. Waukesha, a little town in Wisconsin that the largest firms don't even start people at 70k? Impossible to find a job there, too. That's for people who were deferred out of UW-Wisconsin, by the way--folks who, considering they got biglaw through OCI at Wisconsin were toward, at least, the top 20% of the class.

Your T14 degree isn't going to make you more marketable to a Waukesha firm than a Wisconsin degree will, unless you're a Waukesha kid. Deferred associates are absolute damaged goods, because it is generally assumed that you're going to bolt ASAP. PI jobs are hard to find because biglaw is paying their deferred associates stipends to work those PI jobs--they aren't doing the same for small firm gigs.

You vastly overestimate the number of jobs that are out there between market and the $40ish-k range.


Interesting, I doubt that PI employers, like the firms in these secondary markets, are going to take someone they suspect may bolt in a couple years. More importantly, they generally seek out students that have a documented interest in PI work or a specific area of law(pd, elder abuse, rural legal assistance), not a T14 that struck out at OCI or is deferred, who has no clear interest in pi work(based on their resume, courses taken, clinics, internships.)
Last edited by articulably suspect on Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:16 am

JCougar wrote:
rondemarino wrote:Can you post this in the OCI Callbacks thread?

EDIT: I work at a small IP boutique in SoCal. In normal years, we were able to only hire a couple of UCLA/USC grads, but a ton of USD grads. Now we have a lot of T14 resumes that we don't bother with because no one thinks its worth the time training people who will end up leaving in a 1-2 years when the economy picks. It would not surprise me one bit if a lot of firms in secondary markets did this too.


If you really were committed to staying at these firms, and you either had family in the area or convinced them that you intended to stay for sure, I'm sure you'd find some takers. Like I said, there's a difference between wanting to hold out until you get a biglaw job while complaining that you have no options and actually finding a job somewhere else that might not pay as much initially, but could leave you in a decent position down the road.


I think people who have been in the field for 20-40 years have a better knack for judging who will stay and who won't (the kid who summered at a V100 is probably not the best fit for a small firm in a secondary market). This isn't their first recession. They're used to convincing stories by now.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:16 am

rondemarino wrote:The analogy, as it relates to the pricing of unproven talent, is quite apt. Today's first year associates are tomorrow's senior associates who can bill out at rates sufficient to pad a partner's paycheck. They wouldn't be paying these ridiculous sums if the return wasn't justified.


My point was that this isn't typical of any career. Even in baseball, only a tiny fraction go right from High School to the Major leagues. 99% of prospects have to prove themselves in college ball and the minor leagues first, and 95% of them don't get decent signing bonuses.

rondemarino wrote:I don't understand why you expect everyone to conform to your expectations. Believe it or not, I'm not a Big Law-or-killself type. I ED'ed to a school I'd be happy at (not T14) even though my numbers were good enough at more than a couple of T14s. If firms had a lifestyle track - $90k and 1600 billable hours - I'd take it. But I don't presume that people want what I want. Moreover, if you came up in a system where "prestige" was key to opportunities, you can see why people would be wary about accepting a less than prestigious $55k job, right?


I don't expect anyone to do anything. I'm just commenting on the doomsday scenarios people seem to be spelling out about any law career where you make less than $100k to start out. I know everyone on here is highly motivated, and that's good, but I think sometimes people take themselves waaaaay too seriously on here.

User avatar
rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:18 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
JCougar wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:You're so incredibly off-base with this.

There are piles of people that are flat-out unemployed right now. To find a job in a secondary market, you need to have some plausible connection to that market to evidence the fact that you're not going to bolt the first chance you get.

You're also assuming that firms in true "secondary markets" (what do you mean by this? Milwaukee as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job in Milwaukee right now. Rockford (2nd largest city in Illinois) as a secondary to Chicago? It's impossible to find a legal job there. Waukesha, a little town in Wisconsin that the largest firms don't even start people at 70k? Impossible to find a job there, too. That's for people who were deferred out of UW-Wisconsin, by the way--folks who, considering they got biglaw through OCI at Wisconsin were toward, at least, the top 20% of the class.

Your T14 degree isn't going to make you more marketable to a Waukesha firm than a Wisconsin degree will, unless you're a Waukesha kid. Deferred associates are absolute damaged goods, because it is generally assumed that you're going to bolt ASAP. PI jobs are hard to find because biglaw is paying their deferred associates stipends to work those PI jobs--they aren't doing the same for small firm gigs.

You vastly overestimate the number of jobs that are out there between market and the $40ish-k range.


I just don't believe this. I can't believe that firms wouldn't hire you if you actually were serious about staying and you showed it. Maybe a few wouldn't, but if you tried hard enough, you'd eventually get some hits.


I'm sorry? You "just don't believe this"? How much experience do you have dealing with hiring in the current legal environment? How many hiring partners do you know? How many deferred biglaw people do you know? If the answer to any of those questions is "less than a lot," then you know less about the environment than me, and a lot of the other people in this thread that are telling you that you're wrong.

Don't believe it if you don't want to, but you're flat-out wrong, and you're going to be in for one hell of a rude awakening. Those 55k jobs you keep prattling about? They exist, but they're not just out there for the pickings.


But you just have to try. If you try, the jobs will come. All those unemployed Big Law associates out there just aren't trying

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:19 am

ejj--the PI firms know that they're getting people who are probably only going to be there for one year. In regards to many of the biglaw deferrals, the PI firms are literally getting free labor out of it; to the extent it isn't free, it is extremely cheap.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:24 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'm sorry? You "just don't believe this"? How much experience do you have dealing with hiring in the current legal environment? How many hiring partners do you know? How many deferred biglaw people do you know? If the answer to any of those questions is "less than a lot," then you know less about the environment than me, and a lot of the other people in this thread that are telling you that you're wrong.

Don't believe it if you don't want to, but you're flat-out wrong, and you're going to be in for one hell of a rude awakening. Those 55k jobs you keep prattling about? They exist, but they're not just out there for the pickings.


This is ridiculous. First all I hear about is how almost half of law jobs pay in the 55k range. Then I hear about how they don't exist. On one hand, I hear about how being deferred makes you dead meat and impossible to employ, and on the other hand, mid-law firms won't take you because you're such a hot commodity that you'll have the opportunity to bolt after two years. It's a tough market out there, but some people are still getting jobs. There's about 200 law schools out there now, so if you have a degree from one in the top 10%, you should be able to find some job somewhere.

articulably suspect
Posts: 304
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:01 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:25 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:ejj--the PI firms know that they're getting people who are probably only going to be there for one year. In regards to many of the biglaw deferrals, the PI firms are literally getting free labor out of it; to the extent it isn't free, it is extremely cheap.


really, well that makes sense for them. i haven't heard this before. I also haven't heard of this happening where i'm at though(i guess you would call it a secondary market.) are you in a major city?

edit: how cheap, 20, 30, 40K?
Last edited by articulably suspect on Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:26 am

rondemarino wrote:But you just have to try. If you try, the jobs will come. All those unemployed Big Law associates out there just aren't trying


Exactly. Either that, or they haven't been trying long enough. Welcome to the real world, where you deal with layoffs by trying as hard as you can to get another job -- and perhaps having to lower your standards a bit. When they eventually find one, they'll make a more than decent living.

User avatar
rondemarino
Posts: 529
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:29 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby rondemarino » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:31 am

JCougar wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:I'm sorry? You "just don't believe this"? How much experience do you have dealing with hiring in the current legal environment? How many hiring partners do you know? How many deferred biglaw people do you know? If the answer to any of those questions is "less than a lot," then you know less about the environment than me, and a lot of the other people in this thread that are telling you that you're wrong.

Don't believe it if you don't want to, but you're flat-out wrong, and you're going to be in for one hell of a rude awakening. Those 55k jobs you keep prattling about? They exist, but they're not just out there for the pickings.


This is ridiculous. First all I hear about is how almost half of law jobs pay in the 55k range. Then I hear about how they don't exist. On one hand, I hear about how being deferred makes you dead meat and impossible to employ, and on the other hand, mid-law firms won't take you because you're such a hot commodity that you'll have the opportunity to bolt after two years. It's a tough market out there, but some people are still getting jobs. There's about 200 law schools out there now, so if you have a degree from one in the top 10%, you should be able to find some job somewhere.


Wow. I like how you twist what people say to fit your point. I never said they're a "hot commodity," just that they are, justly or unjustly, viewed as a flight risk.

I'm done here. Enjoy yelling at whatever the hell you are yelling at.

EDIT: If you're in a mood because of the test this Saturday, relax some.

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:36 am

JCougar wrote:
rondemarino wrote:But you just have to try. If you try, the jobs will come. All those unemployed Big Law associates out there just aren't trying


Exactly. Either that, or they haven't been trying long enough. Welcome to the real world, where you deal with layoffs by trying as hard as you can to get another job -- and perhaps having to lower your standards a bit. When they eventually find one, they'll make a more than decent living.


You apparently can't read or something.

Even in a good economy, a lot of law students were having to accept jobs that paid considerably less than 55k. Now, admittedly, those students were generally toward the bottom or the class, or from lower-ranked schools. However, guess what? The band of people having to accept those lower-paying jobs has expanded a huge amount.

However, your assertion that "ok, well, someone shouldn't pay $150k for their legal education then" is terribly flawed when you presume, in your discussion, that we're talking about T14 students. The vast majority of people who go to the T14 don't get merit aid--hell, Harvard flat out doesn't give ANY merit aid period-- and yes, there are deferred Harvard grads out there right now who may not end up ever getting un-deferred, and I know one Harvard student who wasn't able to find anything paying more than $40k, despite hundreds of mailings. He was a little below the median, but we're talking Harvard, and we're talking $180k+ iin debt.

You're incredibly naive, you clearly know absolutely nothing about which you speak. JDUnderground exagerates things on the overly-negative side, but you're the precise mirror image of that problem. People with your "the world is full of roses and everyone who tries can find a respectable job" kind of viewpoint is one of the problems that has fed the glut of lawyers in the first instance.

Anyway, back to outlining.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:38 am

rondemarino wrote:Wow. I like how you twist what people say to fit your point. I never said they're a "hot commodity," just that they are, justly or unjustly, viewed as a flight risk.

I'm done here. Enjoy yelling at whatever the hell you are yelling at.

EDIT: If you're in a mood because of the test this Saturday, relax some.


Hey, I'm not the one who started out by calling someone's post "stupid." I'm just trying to defend my viewpoint on here. I probably should be studying some, though, so I can get those scholarships that I want. :)

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:45 am

JCougar wrote:
rondemarino wrote:Wow. I like how you twist what people say to fit your point. I never said they're a "hot commodity," just that they are, justly or unjustly, viewed as a flight risk.

I'm done here. Enjoy yelling at whatever the hell you are yelling at.

EDIT: If you're in a mood because of the test this Saturday, relax some.


Hey, I'm not the one who started out by calling someone's post "stupid." I'm just trying to defend my viewpoint on here. I probably should be studying some, though, so I can get those scholarships that I want. :)


Oh FFS, you're a 0L? There's nothing wrong with being a 0L. There's something wrong with being a 0L and pretending that you have any bloody idea what you're talking about regarding the current state of legal hiring.

Dear lord, I feel like I just tried to explain a Beethoven concerto to a 2-year-old who just learned how to shake its rattle to a certain rhythm.

Seriously, how do you think that you're even remotely qualified to opine on the current state of the legal market? Ugh. :?

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:46 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:You apparently can't read or something.

Even in a good economy, a lot of law students were having to accept jobs that paid considerably less than 55k. Now, admittedly, those students were generally toward the bottom or the class, or from lower-ranked schools. However, guess what? The band of people having to accept those lower-paying jobs has expanded a huge amount.

However, your assertion that "ok, well, someone shouldn't pay $150k for their legal education then" is terribly flawed when you presume, in your discussion, that we're talking about T14 students. The vast majority of people who go to the T14 don't get merit aid--hell, Harvard flat out doesn't give ANY merit aid period-- and yes, there are deferred Harvard grads out there right now who may not end up ever getting un-deferred, and I know one Harvard student who wasn't able to find anything paying more than $40k, despite hundreds of mailings. He was a little below the median, but we're talking Harvard, and we're talking $180k+ iin debt.

You're incredibly naive, you clearly know absolutely nothing about which you speak. JDUnderground exagerates things on the overly-negative side, but you're the precise mirror image of that problem. People with your "the world is full of roses and everyone who tries can find a respectable job" kind of viewpoint is one of the problems that has fed the glut of lawyers in the first instance.

Anyway, back to outlining.


I think I specifically said that going to T14 was worth paying sticker. I'm perfectly happy with your characterization of me as the reverse JDUnderground, though. Those people, for the most part, need to grow up and get a life, and either take responsibility for what they've done or be happy for what they have. No degree is either a license to be employed or a license to automatically start out your career in the top 95% of income earners in this country before you have done any work. Those people with Harvard law degrees will eventually get a good job -- either when the economy recovers or they decide to expand their horizons a bit -- as long as they don't have a defeatist mindset like you do and dwell in the misery of all being doomed because they don't have their $160k job right this fucking moment.

User avatar
JCougar
Posts: 3175
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:47 pm

Re: Is the career outlook for a non t-14 lawyer really that bad?

Postby JCougar » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:48 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Oh FFS, you're a 0L? There's nothing wrong with being a 0L. There's something wrong with being a 0L and pretending that you have any bloody idea what you're talking about regarding the current state of legal hiring.

Dear lord, I feel like I just tried to explain a Beethoven concerto to a 2-year-old who just learned how to shake its rattle to a certain rhythm.

Seriously, how do you think that you're even remotely qualified to opine on the current state of the legal market? Ugh. :?


It takes nothing more than common sense.




Return to “Legal Employment”

Who is online

The online users are hidden on this forum.