OCI- Post mortem results?

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edcrane
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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby edcrane » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:09 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:Dude, there was never a GPA theshold that guaranteed that you would get biglaw (except maybe at the way top, e.g. top 1%, and that was only with the firms on the top of the vault chart that only care about grades). I mean as students we all like to quantify odds and everything else but I think almost all firms look more qualititatively then we like to think. Point being if you are douchebag and have a terrible personality you didn't get a offers ITE, and wouldn't have in a good economy.

People at and above the median might have struck out, but I think close to half the class at CCN got offers anyway.


What I'm saying is that there's a significant difference between this and prior years in terms of the importance of interviews. In prior years, if you were in the top 1/3 - 1/4 at CCN, being a douchebag was a necessary condition for striking out. This year, however, a fair number of good/non-douchebag people struck out simply because they didn't quite 'fit' whatever their interviewers expected.

I think you're probably right about the percentage of the class with offers, but it's important to realize that there are lots of people in the top half who struck out.

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rayiner
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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby rayiner » Mon Oct 26, 2009 10:42 am

Anonymous User wrote:
hiro86 wrote:Wanted to update and say in the U of Chicago questions thread a current student said he estimates around half of the class has offers... which is scary considering the school's small class size and that it is the top school for the Chicago market.


Numbers are about the same at NU.


Explain.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby Mark71121 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:19 am

edcrane wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Dude, there was never a GPA theshold that guaranteed that you would get biglaw (except maybe at the way top, e.g. top 1%, and that was only with the firms on the top of the vault chart that only care about grades). I mean as students we all like to quantify odds and everything else but I think almost all firms look more qualititatively then we like to think. Point being if you are douchebag and have a terrible personality you didn't get a offers ITE, and wouldn't have in a good economy.

People at and above the median might have struck out, but I think close to half the class at CCN got offers anyway.


What I'm saying is that there's a significant difference between this and prior years in terms of the importance of interviews. In prior years, if you were in the top 1/3 - 1/4 at CCN, being a douchebag was a necessary condition for striking out. This year, however, a fair number of good/non-douchebag people struck out simply because they didn't quite 'fit' whatever their interviewers expected.

I think you're probably right about the percentage of the class with offers, but it's important to realize that there are lots of people in the top half who struck out.



yes but that's balanced by the heightened GPA threshold needed for the interview to even matter.

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edcrane
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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby edcrane » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:31 pm

Mark71121 wrote:
edcrane wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:Dude, there was never a GPA theshold that guaranteed that you would get biglaw (except maybe at the way top, e.g. top 1%, and that was only with the firms on the top of the vault chart that only care about grades). I mean as students we all like to quantify odds and everything else but I think almost all firms look more qualititatively then we like to think. Point being if you are douchebag and have a terrible personality you didn't get a offers ITE, and wouldn't have in a good economy.

People at and above the median might have struck out, but I think close to half the class at CCN got offers anyway.


What I'm saying is that there's a significant difference between this and prior years in terms of the importance of interviews. In prior years, if you were in the top 1/3 - 1/4 at CCN, being a douchebag was a necessary condition for striking out. This year, however, a fair number of good/non-douchebag people struck out simply because they didn't quite 'fit' whatever their interviewers expected.

I think you're probably right about the percentage of the class with offers, but it's important to realize that there are lots of people in the top half who struck out.



yes but that's balanced by the heightened GPA threshold needed for the interview to even matter.


Not sure that there was a heightened "threshold" this year, at least in terms of class rank. Indeed, I know a number of non-URM students below the median who received V20-V50 offers from CCN. I'm not saying grades were unimportant this year; rather, I'm observing that the relative importance of interviewing well increased noticeably from prior years.

I should also note that this effect was not limited to the bottom 3/4 of the class. Most LR students I know had a far worse screening interview to CB ratio than was reported in previous years. Their CB to offer ratios were similarly unimpressive when compared to previous years.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby adamlippes » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:46 pm

I'll have to go with edcrane here. The firms from whom I received offers traditionally hired people way above my GPA.

From what I've been told, cut-offs have been raised, but they weren't too high to begin with, and they didn't go that much higher.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby hiro86 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:34 pm

Anyone from Harvard or Stanford?

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:17 am

edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year

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edcrane
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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby edcrane » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:20 pm

Anonymous User wrote:edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year


We won't know with any degree of certainty until next year, when CS publishes stats, but a significant minority of people in the median to top 1/4 bucket with whom I've discussed summer plans have indicated that they're still looking (i.e., nada from EIW/OCI). None of these people seem especially socially inept or prone to douchebaggery.

It may be that such people only account for 10%-15% of students in that grade range, but that would still be a pretty significant departure from past years.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby adamlippes » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:46 pm

edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year


We won't know with any degree of certainty until next year, when CS publishes stats, but a significant minority of people in the median to top 1/4 bucket with whom I've discussed summer plans have indicated that they're still looking (i.e., nada from EIW/OCI). None of these people seem especially socially inept or prone to douchebaggery.

It may be that such people only account for 10%-15% of students in that grade range, but that would still be a pretty significant departure from past years.


And with this observation, isn't it pretty sick the way people around us keep talking about jobs they have so loudly? Some kids during break in tax were yapping loudly, and I couldn't help but wonder how crass they were being.

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edcrane
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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby edcrane » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:35 pm

adamlippes wrote:
edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year


We won't know with any degree of certainty until next year, when CS publishes stats, but a significant minority of people in the median to top 1/4 bucket with whom I've discussed summer plans have indicated that they're still looking (i.e., nada from EIW/OCI). None of these people seem especially socially inept or prone to douchebaggery.

It may be that such people only account for 10%-15% of students in that grade range, but that would still be a pretty significant departure from past years.


And with this observation, isn't it pretty sick the way people around us keep talking about jobs they have so loudly? Some kids during break in tax were yapping loudly, and I couldn't help but wonder how crass they were being.


If it's loud, it's pretty douchey. On the other hand, I don't think decorum requires people to completely avoid the subject, provided it's not being broadcast to the room.

Of course I also find the "I went to school in Cambridge/New Haven/New York (columbia)/Ithica/Hanover" thing absurd, so maybe I'm a little off-kilter.
Last edited by edcrane on Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby hiro86 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:31 pm

adamlippes wrote:
edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year


We won't know with any degree of certainty until next year, when CS publishes stats, but a significant minority of people in the median to top 1/4 bucket with whom I've discussed summer plans have indicated that they're still looking (i.e., nada from EIW/OCI). None of these people seem especially socially inept or prone to douchebaggery.

It may be that such people only account for 10%-15% of students in that grade range, but that would still be a pretty significant departure from past years.


And with this observation, isn't it pretty sick the way people around us keep talking about jobs they have so loudly? Some kids during break in tax were yapping loudly, and I couldn't help but wonder how crass they were being.

Personally, I'm surprised by the fact that in law school the discussion of jobs is so taboo. In UG everyone was very open about it and I don't think any one was offended. I just graduated, and the job market was as bad for us UG kids as it is for the current 2Ls. I don't know, maybe it was just my UG...

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:05 pm

hiro86 wrote:
adamlippes wrote:
edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year


We won't know with any degree of certainty until next year, when CS publishes stats, but a significant minority of people in the median to top 1/4 bucket with whom I've discussed summer plans have indicated that they're still looking (i.e., nada from EIW/OCI). None of these people seem especially socially inept or prone to douchebaggery.

It may be that such people only account for 10%-15% of students in that grade range, but that would still be a pretty significant departure from past years.


And with this observation, isn't it pretty sick the way people around us keep talking about jobs they have so loudly? Some kids during break in tax were yapping loudly, and I couldn't help but wonder how crass they were being.

Personally, I'm surprised by the fact that in law school the discussion of jobs is so taboo. In UG everyone was very open about it and I don't think any one was offended. I just graduated, and the job market was as bad for us UG kids as it is for the current 2Ls. I don't know, maybe it was just my UG...


It's kinda that same as talking about grades.. People who do well after their 1st semester make it a point to talk about grades, whereas people who do poorly make it a point to avoid discussion about grades. I'd imagine talking about jobs wasn't so taboo a couple years ago when vast majority people did well (obviously depending on school and definition of "well" based on that).

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:36 pm

T14 transfer student. Came from a low T2. I received 2 callbacks and have not heard from either of them yet.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:58 pm

hiro86 wrote:
adamlippes wrote:
edcrane wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:edcrane: Do you really think there are many above median people at NYU who got no offers? I haven't talked to many people, but my perception was that median or higher + reasonable interview strategy = offer at NYU this year


We won't know with any degree of certainty until next year, when CS publishes stats, but a significant minority of people in the median to top 1/4 bucket with whom I've discussed summer plans have indicated that they're still looking (i.e., nada from EIW/OCI). None of these people seem especially socially inept or prone to douchebaggery.

It may be that such people only account for 10%-15% of students in that grade range, but that would still be a pretty significant departure from past years.


And with this observation, isn't it pretty sick the way people around us keep talking about jobs they have so loudly? Some kids during break in tax were yapping loudly, and I couldn't help but wonder how crass they were being.

Personally, I'm surprised by the fact that in law school the discussion of jobs is so taboo. In UG everyone was very open about it and I don't think any one was offended. I just graduated, and the job market was as bad for us UG kids as it is for the current 2Ls. I don't know, maybe it was just my UG...


The 2L summer job search is considered, by many, to be a defining moment of a person's legal career. Few UG people (though certainly some) are in that position. The emphasis that people put on 2L OCI is not without merit, because moving vertically after you're practicing is extremely difficult. The ability to knock out the $150k+ of law school debt in 3-4 years as compared to 20-30 has a defining impact on peoples' lives, not to mention the doors that the biglaw pedigree opens--either through partnership, or with firms/agencies that largely only hire biglaw "grads."

2L OCI this year dashed a lot of expectations that people had coming in to law school. The Class of 2012 was put on notice everywhere but HYS, the Class of 2011 was on notice about the risks associated with schools lower on the totem poll. However, the folks in the Class of 2011 who took out massive loans on the expectation that a majority of their class was going to get some kind of employment in biglaw post-graduation--an expectation that really wasn't outlandish for people in and around the T14--have been hit very hard. It is likely to have a permanent impact on their lives; contrary to the feel-good crap that Career Services Offices are putting out, the people who missed the Biglaw boat because of the economy could very well have missed it permanently.

$180k is hell of a debt to pay off without a very high salary--hell, isn't the standard recommendation "don't take out more debt than you'll make in the first year"? I'm not surprised at all that the topic is taboo under these circumstances.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby M51 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:16 am

edcrane wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:
edcrane wrote:What I'm saying is that there's a significant difference between this and prior years in terms of the importance of interviews. In prior years, if you were in the top 1/3 - 1/4 at CCN, being a douchebag was a necessary condition for striking out. This year, however, a fair number of good/non-douchebag people struck out simply because they didn't quite 'fit' whatever their interviewers expected.

I think you're probably right about the percentage of the class with offers, but it's important to realize that there are lots of people in the top half who struck out.



yes but that's balanced by the heightened GPA threshold needed for the interview to even matter.


Not sure that there was a heightened "threshold" this year, at least in terms of class rank. Indeed, I know a number of non-URM students below the median who received V20-V50 offers from CCN. I'm not saying grades were unimportant this year; rather, I'm observing that the relative importance of interviewing well increased noticeably from prior years.

I should also note that this effect was not limited to the bottom 3/4 of the class. Most LR students I know had a far worse screening interview to CB ratio than was reported in previous years. Their CB to offer ratios were similarly unimpressive when compared to previous years.


Everything said here by edcrane fits with what I've seen as well. The slight tightening of the grades cutoff is less than half the story in terms of where firms chose to be selective about.

I was at at thing w/ the dean earlier today and the numbers thus far at CLS look encouraging, better than I thought they'd be at least. When the final numbers are released to the public (and presumably more people get offers/jobs), it should look even better.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:46 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:The 2L summer job search is considered, by many, to be a defining moment of a person's legal career. Few UG people (though certainly some) are in that position. The emphasis that people put on 2L OCI is not without merit, because moving vertically after you're practicing is extremely difficult. The ability to knock out the $150k+ of law school debt in 3-4 years as compared to 20-30 has a defining impact on peoples' lives, not to mention the doors that the biglaw pedigree opens--either through partnership, or with firms/agencies that largely only hire biglaw "grads."

2L OCI this year dashed a lot of expectations that people had coming in to law school. The Class of 2012 was put on notice everywhere but HYS, the Class of 2011 was on notice about the risks associated with schools lower on the totem poll. However, the folks in the Class of 2011 who took out massive loans on the expectation that a majority of their class was going to get some kind of employment in biglaw post-graduation--an expectation that really wasn't outlandish for people in and around the T14--have been hit very hard. It is likely to have a permanent impact on their lives; contrary to the feel-good crap that Career Services Offices are putting out, the people who missed the Biglaw boat because of the economy could very well have missed it permanently.

$180k is hell of a debt to pay off without a very high salary--hell, isn't the standard recommendation "don't take out more debt than you'll make in the first year"? I'm not surprised at all that the topic is taboo under these circumstances.


You should be a career services counselor. Just imagine this guy telling students that didn't get offers this to there faces :lol:

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:47 am

M51 wrote:
edcrane wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:
edcrane wrote:What I'm saying is that there's a significant difference between this and prior years in terms of the importance of interviews. In prior years, if you were in the top 1/3 - 1/4 at CCN, being a douchebag was a necessary condition for striking out. This year, however, a fair number of good/non-douchebag people struck out simply because they didn't quite 'fit' whatever their interviewers expected.

I think you're probably right about the percentage of the class with offers, but it's important to realize that there are lots of people in the top half who struck out.



yes but that's balanced by the heightened GPA threshold needed for the interview to even matter.


Not sure that there was a heightened "threshold" this year, at least in terms of class rank. Indeed, I know a number of non-URM students below the median who received V20-V50 offers from CCN. I'm not saying grades were unimportant this year; rather, I'm observing that the relative importance of interviewing well increased noticeably from prior years.

I should also note that this effect was not limited to the bottom 3/4 of the class. Most LR students I know had a far worse screening interview to CB ratio than was reported in previous years. Their CB to offer ratios were similarly unimpressive when compared to previous years.


Everything said here by edcrane fits with what I've seen as well. The slight tightening of the grades cutoff is less than half the story in terms of where firms chose to be selective about.

I was at at thing w/ the dean earlier today and the numbers thus far at CLS look encouraging, better than I thought they'd be at least. When the final numbers are released to the public (and presumably more people get offers/jobs), it should look even better.


What % got offers at CLS so far?

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby M51 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:02 am

XxSpyKEx wrote:
M51 wrote:I was at at thing w/ the dean earlier today and the numbers thus far at CLS look encouraging, better than I thought they'd be at least. When the final numbers are released to the public (and presumably more people get offers/jobs), it should look even better.


What % got offers at CLS so far?


I was intentionally vague (I don't leak info, ever), and either way, that was not the particular number I was talking about. I don't think career services actually has that #. In fact, I can't see any way they can actually get that # at this point without sending out a large school-wide survey inquiring about offers, which they have not yet done.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby mr.undroppable » Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:27 am

edcrane wrote:Of course I also find the "I went to school in Cambridge/New Haven/New York (columbia)/Ithica/Hanover" thing absurd, so maybe I'm a little off-kilter.


Disgusting Cornell trolling. I went to school in Andover is tcr, by the way.

Nobody has any idea how their classmates truly did at this point. Do any of you really think someone in the top 5% on law review is going to advertise the fact they struck out or are going to some midlaw firm when their entire 1L year was spent feeling superior to everyone else?

Conversely, the douchebags who would have struck out any year, but normally would have been too proud to be open about it, suddenly have license because of the economy to broadcast their failure and bemoan the awful hiring season. So on both ends there will be inaccuracy. More people from the bottom will admit failure than normal and people at the top will still be evasive. The result is we have no idea and most of the T14's careers services are too lazy to ever figure out the numbers, much less publish them for fear of being outed like CU was on above the law.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:53 pm

At my HYS, the one thing that really stuck out in my mind this OCI was that people who had previous private-sector work experience had a major boost in callback rates & offer rates over those who a) came straight through from UG or b) had demonstrated significant interest in public interest. Even a year or two in ibanking/consulting was something lots of recruiting lawyers latched onto during interviews.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby CE2JD » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:35 pm

Anonymous User wrote:At my HYS, the one thing that really stuck out in my mind this OCI was that people who had previous private-sector work experience had a major boost in callback rates & offer rates over those who a) came straight through from UG or b) had demonstrated significant interest in public interest. Even a year or two in ibanking/consulting was something lots of recruiting lawyers latched onto during interviews.


At get the same impression from my school.

If you don't have meaningful work experience, you better have unbelievable grades or be an URM because otherwise you're SOL ITE.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby adamlippes » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:51 pm

...
Last edited by adamlippes on Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby M51 » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:50 pm

adamlippes wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:At my HYS, the one thing that really stuck out in my mind this OCI was that people who had previous private-sector work experience had a major boost in callback rates & offer rates over those who a) came straight through from UG or b) had demonstrated significant interest in public interest. Even a year or two in ibanking/consulting was something lots of recruiting lawyers latched onto during interviews.


At get the same impression from my school.

If you don't have meaningful work experience, you better have unbelievable grades or be an URM because otherwise you're SOL ITE.


Went straight from undergrad, had so-so grades, am not a URM (and am not on a journal), and I'll be at a V10 this summer...


Yeah, I'm sure work exp is a good soft, but there're plenty of people with stories like that that I know it's not workexp/grades/URM. The "they like you" factor, or "fit", plays a much bigger role than people give it credit for.

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby CE2JD » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:54 pm

M51 wrote:
adamlippes wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:At my HYS, the one thing that really stuck out in my mind this OCI was that people who had previous private-sector work experience had a major boost in callback rates & offer rates over those who a) came straight through from UG or b) had demonstrated significant interest in public interest. Even a year or two in ibanking/consulting was something lots of recruiting lawyers latched onto during interviews.


I get the same impression from my school.

If you don't have meaningful work experience, you better have unbelievable grades or be an URM because otherwise you're SOL ITE.


Went straight from undergrad, had so-so grades, am not a URM (and am not on a journal), and I'll be at a V10 this summer...


Yeah, I'm sure work exp is a good soft, but there're plenty of people with stories like that that I know it's not workexp/grades/URM. The "they like you" factor, or "fit", plays a much bigger role than people give it credit for.


Credited.

Also, my typing has been horrible today because I'm burnt out from my last midterm.

:(

I think you have to distinguish yourself in some way in order to avoid relying totally on stellar grades. You can't be devoid of all interesting life experiences, interests, etc. and expect to get whatever job you want.

Of course work experience is not the only way to distinguish yourself. Of course some people get lucky and get great jobs using their awesome networking and interviewing skills (although I haven't heard many anecdotes about this type of "talent" helping many people with "so-so" grades get jobs). I just think work experience is one of the easiest and OBVIOUS ways people distinguish themselves (considering great grades might be hard to come by and simply trying to convince people of your interest in one topic or area of law might not work if you can't back it up with some tangible past experience).

Example:

-I know a 1L who recently got an award from a federal agency she worked for before law school. I consider this a much more valuable talking point when interviewing for a job than some peppy ass-kisser emphatically claiming: "zOMG I WILL BE SO GOOD AT [fill in random type of law job] LOL."

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Re: OCI- Post mortem results?

Postby Anonymous User » Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:58 pm

Lower T-2 NY.

Top 5% Law Review

26 Screening Interviews with V100
3 Callbacks
2 Rejections
1 Offer from a V20

I feel tremendously blessed




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