For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

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Anonymous User
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For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:25 pm

Ok, so I am creating a thread for those who really screwed by the job market (or lack thereof). I am not talking about those who get 1 offer because I would be very ecstatic to get just one offer. This thread is for those who are as screwed as I am and don't have much of a plan. So, I had 20 interviews, 19 rejections after the screening, so 0 callbacks, and 0 offers. My stats are top 25 school, top 33% of the class, secondary law journal, and interesting work experience. I felt like I had some really great interviews (so great it felt more like a conversation). Searching the NY and NJ market. So I feel pretty down and screwed. Either my personality sucks or my grades suck or both. Government jobs will be just as competitive and I kind of needed to go into the private sector to be able to pay off my law school debt. Am I alone? Anyone else feeling as screwed as I am? Also, what is your plan? After all these rejections, I do not really have the motivation to intern again next summer for zero pay (nor do I have the budget for that).

Anonymous User
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:57 pm

I'm actually impressed you got 20 interviews. I have essentially the same stats: top third, T20 school (think UMinn, BU, Emory), Secondary journal and I only got 4 interviews, no callbacks. You're definitely not alone. Luckily I don't have much debt, but I have no idea how I'm supposed to get a job after school, even if I do manage to get one for this summer.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby BradyToMoss » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:00 pm

First off, I doubt your personality sucks. Simple fact is top 33% at top-25 is very unlikely to result in a SA position for a legit firm this year. The positive thing is that 3L OCI hiring could be pretty good next year. A lot of firms are playing it safe this year, planning for fewer SAs and extending fewer offers. These firms know they are often offering kids with several offers on the table, and their yield could be considerably lower than they are anticipating. They are fine with having a low number of SAs, saving some $ this summer, and giving themselves flexibility to hit a buyer's market at 3L OCI next year.

With that in mind, I would keep two goals in mind. First is to absolutely kill it during your 2L year. You should be aided by those lucky individuals ahead of you who might lack the motivation to work as hard as they did 1L. Showing a marked improvement in your grades (which are good already, don't be down on yourself) will show these firms that you are serious about becoming a professional, and that you understand the law and are progressing in your legal analysis abilities. Second, and perhaps more important, is to find some kind of job (paid/unpaid/credits/whatever) for this summer in which you are developing the skills that will help you in whichever private field you hope to enter. At 3L OCI you will have to sell yourself well, and as we saw during this year's cycle firm's really do value work experience when they have a lot of qualified and capable candidates to choose from.

laborday
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby laborday » Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:16 pm

BradyToMoss wrote:The positive thing is that 3L OCI hiring could be pretty good next year. A lot of firms are playing it safe this year, planning for fewer SAs and extending fewer offers. These firms know they are often offering kids with several offers on the table, and their yield could be considerably lower than they are anticipating. They are fine with having a low number of SAs, saving some $ this summer, and giving themselves flexibility to hit a buyer's market at 3L OCI next year.


I hope that is true, but how possible it is for firms, especially big firms, to hire 3Ls without the 10-week 2L SA interview? Even if the economy is getting better and they start to hire more next year, wouldn't that benefit go to the 2Ls?

r973
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby r973 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:02 pm

Yea, I agree that if next year improves, it will mostly benefit those 2Ls. I know this year, a lot of employers specifically stated that they were not considering any 3Ls at my school's OCI. I doubt that would change next year.

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Matthies
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby Matthies » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:03 pm

Here is some advice I posted on another board a few years ago for those striking out at OCI. The simple truth is most law students won’t find jobs from OCI/. The single best method for finding a good job out of law school is networking and making contacts so that you know enough people by 3L and that you have lots of people recommending you for a job. Here are some ideas to get you started:

Some advice on how to start networking from day one:

•Become a student member of the ABA, your state and local bar associations. This can range from free to $50 for a year. Be sure to sign up for any e-mail newsletters they have. DO THIS. Look to see if they have a job listever so you can track who is hiring for what in your market. This data will be valuable later on.

•Find local CLE (Continuing Legal Education classes) for lawyers in your town. This is usually by practice area, it helps if you have a practice area you like, but if you don’t then go to several it’s a good way to see what lawyers actually do in that practice area. These are usually around noon and include lunch; student rates are often free to $10-25 bucks and includes the food. TALK TO PEOPLE THERE. Some lawyers, just like some posters on TLS, love to give advice - these are the folks you want to search out. Students are welcome at CLEs, and you will likely be the only one there – use it to your advantage. People will want to talk to you if you just talk to them first. Not everyone is going to be your mentor, but you won’t find the ones that will if you DON”T TRY and KEEP TRYING. Going each month is a way to see the same people and keep in contact.

•See if the local bar association has any lawyer functions you like, mine has both a kayaking and dodge ball group, join, students are welcome but never go, you already have something in common with these folks to talk about. Go and meet people, real live lawyers and judges, imagine that.

•Focus some of your little free time on meeting lawyers and judges in the community. Joining every student group under the sun is great, but that’s not networking. Those people are your competition for jobs. Being VP of some group as a line on your resume does not beat knowing a judge so well you have his home phone number in your cell. Being the leader of a student group is impressive; knowing someone who knows the person interviewing you who is willing to call them and put a good word in for you is more impressive. (I’m not saying don’t join groups, just make time for outside the school stuff as well- again avoid putting all your eggs in one basket).

•Understand that the legal community in your city is much smaller and more tight nit then you think now. Everybody knows everyone else, if you have a large enough network somebody you know will know or know of the person you are interviewing with or someone high up at the firm you want a job at. BELIEVE ME. I could write an entire post about how just asking my network of lawyers and judges about a certain firm or judge turned into a phone call that got me an interview. Lawyers know other lawyers and judges. Knowing people is how the law gets done. Understand that now, and start meeting people, as a 1L and you will have a HUGE advantage over your classmates who don’t.

•Check the American Inns of Court for an Inn of Court in your town. Contact its recruiting officer and ask to join. (Some may not take students, or only take 2 or 3L, but if they do respond saying that say you’re very interested and would like to join as a 1L if possible). Inns are GREAT. They meet once a month and have up to 200 lawyers and judges as members, and the whole point of Inns is to mentor young lawyers so the folks that join WANT to help.

•Go to networking functions your school puts on. Don’t be a wallflower, TALK TO PEOPLE. Talk to lawyers not other law students. The lawyers and judges who go to these things have volunteered to be mentors. MEET THEM. Moreover, keep in contact with them. Taking their card is NOT ENOUGH. You need to contact them again and again to build a relationship, build up your relationship credits BEFORE you need them then when you do they will WANT TO HELP YOU. Find reasons to talk to them again. Can you shadow them one day at the office or court? Can you e-mail them about elective courses? Ask them to lunch, offer to pay (most time they will end up picking up the bill, but offer). The point is you need to work to stay in contact, that’s networking. Collecting cards and sitting on them is NOT networking. It will be aqward at first, but after a few meetings if you two click it will becomes second nature and you will becomes friends. I know have more friends who are judges and lawyers than I have friends who are classmates.

•If you’re invited by a judge or lawyer to go to some legal event outside of school GO. Just do it. This is a gesture you should not turn down unless you have an exam the next day.

•Volunteer at local bar association charity events, whatever it is, e-mail the person setting up and offer your help. You will meet tons of lawyers this way, and the people you meet are the types that like to give back to the community so they are often good mentors.

•Get this book: Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams, 2d http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Tactics ... y_b_text_b. I dare say it’s the best prep you can do for law school and the only thing that might actually pay off in the end. I’m not going to say I agree with everything in there, but it’s a great start to understanding how the legal job search works, it would take me 100s of post to explain what is laid out in this book. Just read it and you’ll be far above the majority of your classmates when it come to job searching.

•Put your activities with the local bar association on your resume. Why? Law firms like lawyers who are involved in the community it makes the firm look good and it’s how you meet clients. By year four of your firm career you will be expected to bring clients in, showing you have learned networking and meeting people skills in law school is a bonus.

•Be creative in how you meet lawyers or judges. Always be prepared to strike up a conversation when the opportunity presents its self. On more than one occasion, I have had someone comment on my law school sweatshirt out in public that turned out to be alumni. Don’t be shy, suck it up, it’s better to take the chance you might embarrass yourself for a fleeting second than to give up what might have been an excellent networking contact.

•Ask the lawyers and judges you meet to introduce you to their friends. This seems basic, but people like to introduce people to other people, this is how you build your network.

•Do just some of these and your life in law school will be easier than most, your job search will be easier and you will have better success regardless of your grades, ranking or law school you go to.

•If you have, successes please SHARE. This is the most untapped resource for finding a job, 99% of law students have no clue about what I just said. Or if they do they find out too late. If people just understood the power of networking, we would have far fewer posts by miserable 3Ls who can’t find or took crappy jobs because that is the only option they had.

•Start your job search from day one of 1L, look outside school, do not put it off and you will be far ahead of the curve.

•Do not give up if you’re finding it hard at first to meet people you click with. Do not give up once you have a large network. Always keep expanding your network. Networking takes time and effort, this is why most of your classmates won’t be doing it or will tell you (without having tried it themselves) that you should just mass mail out resumes to strangers. Its easier to just submit your resume for OCI or mail merge and hope for the best then stick your neck out and meet strangers. But because its harder is why it pays such huge dividends, if it was easy everyone would do it and you would not get as much success by trying. Its hard so most people don’t do it, so those that do have the pretty much the entire field open to them. Just trust me on this. This thing alone will make your life in law school and your options for after law school so much better if you do it now and do it right.

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BradyToMoss
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby BradyToMoss » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:29 pm

r973 wrote:Yea, I agree that if next year improves, it will mostly benefit those 2Ls. I know this year, a lot of employers specifically stated that they were not considering any 3Ls at my school's OCI. I doubt that would change next year.


They aren't consider 3Ls this year because they already took too many from that class when they were 2Ls. Firms use 3L OCI when they did not hire enough people as 2L SAs. For 2009 SA programs, firms hired far too many. In response, firms are being cautious, extending a very safe number of offers. Provided the economy shows strong signs by next Fall (a big If), a lot of these firms will find that they do not have enough incoming 1st Years for Fall 2011. If this is the case, 3L OCI may see more hiring than 3L OCI has in a long time, and certainly more than this year.

The logic is not difficult to follow.

FrankReynolds
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby FrankReynolds » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:13 pm

The positive thing is that 3L OCI hiring could be pretty good next year.


BradyToMoss is living in lalaland.

The logic is not difficult to follow.

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underdawg
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby underdawg » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:25 pm

makes sense though, no? if you need more first year associates, class of 2012 isn't gonna cut it. but do they even care about having x first years or just x "junior associates"?

FrankReynolds
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby FrankReynolds » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:29 pm

but do they even care about having x first years or just x "junior associates"?


ITE with all the layoffs? I doubt it. It will be much easier to hand off first year work to more senior associates who 1) have no lateral options 2) are afraid of layoffs 3) need billable hours wherever they can't get em

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underdawg
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby underdawg » Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:33 pm

assuming in a better E of course

hayman
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby hayman » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:01 pm

underdawg wrote:assuming in a better E of course


hows things looking for nyuers?

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underdawg
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby underdawg » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:21 pm

it's rough everywhere, far as i can tell. of course, i'm also not being a dick by asking everyone where they got cbs and stuff

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lawlover829
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby lawlover829 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:29 pm

THIS SHOULD BE STICKED AND MADE INTO ANOTHER THREAD :)

Matthies wrote:Here is some advice I posted on another board a few years ago for those striking out at OCI. The simple truth is most law students won’t find jobs from OCI/. The single best method for finding a good job out of law school is networking and making contacts so that you know enough people by 3L and that you have lots of people recommending you for a job. Here are some ideas to get you started:

Some advice on how to start networking from day one:

•Become a student member of the ABA, your state and local bar associations. This can range from free to $50 for a year. Be sure to sign up for any e-mail newsletters they have. DO THIS. Look to see if they have a job listever so you can track who is hiring for what in your market. This data will be valuable later on.

•Find local CLE (Continuing Legal Education classes) for lawyers in your town. This is usually by practice area, it helps if you have a practice area you like, but if you don’t then go to several it’s a good way to see what lawyers actually do in that practice area. These are usually around noon and include lunch; student rates are often free to $10-25 bucks and includes the food. TALK TO PEOPLE THERE. Some lawyers, just like some posters on TLS, love to give advice - these are the folks you want to search out. Students are welcome at CLEs, and you will likely be the only one there – use it to your advantage. People will want to talk to you if you just talk to them first. Not everyone is going to be your mentor, but you won’t find the ones that will if you DON”T TRY and KEEP TRYING. Going each month is a way to see the same people and keep in contact.

•See if the local bar association has any lawyer functions you like, mine has both a kayaking and dodge ball group, join, students are welcome but never go, you already have something in common with these folks to talk about. Go and meet people, real live lawyers and judges, imagine that.

•Focus some of your little free time on meeting lawyers and judges in the community. Joining every student group under the sun is great, but that’s not networking. Those people are your competition for jobs. Being VP of some group as a line on your resume does not beat knowing a judge so well you have his home phone number in your cell. Being the leader of a student group is impressive; knowing someone who knows the person interviewing you who is willing to call them and put a good word in for you is more impressive. (I’m not saying don’t join groups, just make time for outside the school stuff as well- again avoid putting all your eggs in one basket).

•Understand that the legal community in your city is much smaller and more tight nit then you think now. Everybody knows everyone else, if you have a large enough network somebody you know will know or know of the person you are interviewing with or someone high up at the firm you want a job at. BELIEVE ME. I could write an entire post about how just asking my network of lawyers and judges about a certain firm or judge turned into a phone call that got me an interview. Lawyers know other lawyers and judges. Knowing people is how the law gets done. Understand that now, and start meeting people, as a 1L and you will have a HUGE advantage over your classmates who don’t.

•Check the American Inns of Court for an Inn of Court in your town. Contact its recruiting officer and ask to join. (Some may not take students, or only take 2 or 3L, but if they do respond saying that say you’re very interested and would like to join as a 1L if possible). Inns are GREAT. They meet once a month and have up to 200 lawyers and judges as members, and the whole point of Inns is to mentor young lawyers so the folks that join WANT to help.

•Go to networking functions your school puts on. Don’t be a wallflower, TALK TO PEOPLE. Talk to lawyers not other law students. The lawyers and judges who go to these things have volunteered to be mentors. MEET THEM. Moreover, keep in contact with them. Taking their card is NOT ENOUGH. You need to contact them again and again to build a relationship, build up your relationship credits BEFORE you need them then when you do they will WANT TO HELP YOU. Find reasons to talk to them again. Can you shadow them one day at the office or court? Can you e-mail them about elective courses? Ask them to lunch, offer to pay (most time they will end up picking up the bill, but offer). The point is you need to work to stay in contact, that’s networking. Collecting cards and sitting on them is NOT networking. It will be aqward at first, but after a few meetings if you two click it will becomes second nature and you will becomes friends. I know have more friends who are judges and lawyers than I have friends who are classmates.

•If you’re invited by a judge or lawyer to go to some legal event outside of school GO. Just do it. This is a gesture you should not turn down unless you have an exam the next day.

•Volunteer at local bar association charity events, whatever it is, e-mail the person setting up and offer your help. You will meet tons of lawyers this way, and the people you meet are the types that like to give back to the community so they are often good mentors.

•Get this book: Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams, 2d http://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Tactics ... y_b_text_b. I dare say it’s the best prep you can do for law school and the only thing that might actually pay off in the end. I’m not going to say I agree with everything in there, but it’s a great start to understanding how the legal job search works, it would take me 100s of post to explain what is laid out in this book. Just read it and you’ll be far above the majority of your classmates when it come to job searching.

•Put your activities with the local bar association on your resume. Why? Law firms like lawyers who are involved in the community it makes the firm look good and it’s how you meet clients. By year four of your firm career you will be expected to bring clients in, showing you have learned networking and meeting people skills in law school is a bonus.

•Be creative in how you meet lawyers or judges. Always be prepared to strike up a conversation when the opportunity presents its self. On more than one occasion, I have had someone comment on my law school sweatshirt out in public that turned out to be alumni. Don’t be shy, suck it up, it’s better to take the chance you might embarrass yourself for a fleeting second than to give up what might have been an excellent networking contact.

•Ask the lawyers and judges you meet to introduce you to their friends. This seems basic, but people like to introduce people to other people, this is how you build your network.

•Do just some of these and your life in law school will be easier than most, your job search will be easier and you will have better success regardless of your grades, ranking or law school you go to.

•If you have, successes please SHARE. This is the most untapped resource for finding a job, 99% of law students have no clue about what I just said. Or if they do they find out too late. If people just understood the power of networking, we would have far fewer posts by miserable 3Ls who can’t find or took crappy jobs because that is the only option they had.

•Start your job search from day one of 1L, look outside school, do not put it off and you will be far ahead of the curve.

•Do not give up if you’re finding it hard at first to meet people you click with. Do not give up once you have a large network. Always keep expanding your network. Networking takes time and effort, this is why most of your classmates won’t be doing it or will tell you (without having tried it themselves) that you should just mass mail out resumes to strangers. Its easier to just submit your resume for OCI or mail merge and hope for the best then stick your neck out and meet strangers. But because its harder is why it pays such huge dividends, if it was easy everyone would do it and you would not get as much success by trying. Its hard so most people don’t do it, so those that do have the pretty much the entire field open to them. Just trust me on this. This thing alone will make your life in law school and your options for after law school so much better if you do it now and do it right.

Oblomov
Posts: 241
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby Oblomov » Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:57 pm

Why would the need 3L OCI for their class of 2011? They still have the class of 2010 that they delayed.

gollymolly
Posts: 127
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby gollymolly » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:15 pm

.
Last edited by gollymolly on Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

06072010
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby 06072010 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:19 pm

There is abuse of the anonymous function. Don't +1 stuff anonymously -- it's just annoying to keep track of. Please stop.

USAIRS
Posts: 134
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby USAIRS » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:32 pm

gollymolly wrote:Matthies, that's great advice and I'm not trying to be a debbie downer here. But, the difference in who has jobs this year seems to be good grades/not good grades, not good networkers/bad networkers. And to a certain extent, getting good grades is a function of putting in time. I can't imagine doing all (or even several) of the things you said without hurting the GPA in some way, and in this economy, GPA is clearly king.


edit: just wanted to say my comment is on behalf of 1Ls, certainly 2Ls who have struck out at OCI, the point of this thread, are past the question of grades vs. networking and should follow your advice.


Matthies is right. You are wrong. OCI probably accounts for how 1% of first jobs are obtained across the legal profession. Advertised jobs probably account for less than a third. Leiter had a post recently that reiterated the thoughts of a T4 dean. They aren't doing so bad. They never relied on OCI in the first place. They've been reliant on networking and teaching practical skills from day one. Trudge onward people. If the OCI ship has sailed, try and keep an open mind and find a different route. Make a decision: Are you going to spend all day complaining about how your short-term plan to have someone hand you a job isn't working out or are you going to develop a long-term plan that requires a bit of elbow-grease? I know this is going to sound bad, if I don't sound like a jerk already, but there are T4 students out there networking their way to good jobs while you sit around lamenting your sense of entitlement.

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Matthies
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby Matthies » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:34 pm

gollymolly wrote:Matthies, that's great advice and I'm not trying to be a debbie downer here. But, the difference in who has jobs this year seems to be good grades/not good grades, not good networkers/bad networkers. And to a certain extent, getting good grades is a function of putting in time. I can't imagine doing all (or even several) of the things you said without hurting the GPA in some way, and in this economy, GPA is clearly king.


edit: just wanted to say my comment is on behalf of 1Ls, certainly 2Ls who have struck out at OCI, the point of this thread, are past the question of grades vs. networking and should follow your advice.


It would seem like that would be true, but its not in my experience. I went to law school part time at night and worked PT or FT during the day and did everything I posted and graduated 13th in my class. I’m also not that smart. Its all about knowing what works and what does not and putting your free time into the things that work and avoiding the things that don’t.

Of course those with good grades are getting the jobs because they are competing for jobs based on applications that factor in your grades/school. He with the most on paper gets the interview. But who you know beats where you go and what your grades are to an extent. All my job offers came from people I met, most of them where not even adversitised to anyone else. It was all word of mouth, I heard X is looking for someone and I recommend you. I even, no joke, had a federal agency CALL ME and ask me to interview for a job they had not even advertised yet because of a referral from someone who knew me.

You can do all this and still get good grades. And you don’t have to do everything, pick and choose what works best for you. Inns are one night a month and payback handsomely. You need to look for jobs where the competition is not, then you have no competition.

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Drake014
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Re: For those who struck out at OCI and are screwed

Postby Drake014 » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:38 pm

gollymolly wrote:Matthies, that's great advice and I'm not trying to be a debbie downer here. But, the difference in who has jobs this year seems to be good grades/not good grades, not good networkers/bad networkers. And to a certain extent, getting good grades is a function of putting in time. I can't imagine doing all (or even several) of the things you said without hurting the GPA in some way, and in this economy, GPA is clearly king.


edit: just wanted to say my comment is on behalf of 1Ls, certainly 2Ls who have struck out at OCI, the point of this thread, are past the question of grades vs. networking and should follow your advice.


Depends on who you speak to. I've spoken to a couple of 2L/3Ls that said their call backs and interviews have stemmed from who they met and cultivated relationships with. Your personal "seems to be" may have depended wholly on who you spoke to.




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