Attractive females and SA hiring

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joshikousei
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby joshikousei » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:34 pm

.
Last edited by joshikousei on Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:37 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:None of this would be a problem if we just banned women from the workplace. (expect of course for nursing, teaching, and prostitution)


Since you're the ones who lack self control, I think it would be best if y'all were relegated to the home and tasked with cooking, cleaning and other duties that minimize the liklihood of your coming into contact with women and doing something unfortunate. We'd be saving you from yourselves, really.

( :wink: )


Patently awesome. <3

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:38 pm

OperaSoprano wrote: I don't think the onus should be on us to confront the person, though. From what I understand, people who experience harassment of any sort are expected to tell the person to stop, and then do so again if it continues. Only if these measures fail to stop the behavior do they have a claim. I might be mistaken about this, and I hope someone will correct me if I am, but my understanding is that getting unwanted behavior stopped is largely made the responsibility of the party with less power.


This does tend to overlook the fact that, if you don't say something to the person making you uncomfortable, he or she has no reason to believe that his or her behavior is unacceptable. Granted, you'd think in most circumstances it would be clear, but people have screwy ideas about what's attractive to the opposite sex and it's not unreasonable to give the other person an opportunity to change his or her ways.

OperaSoprano wrote: The laws exist, which is awesome, but people can absolutely be intimidated into not taking advantage of them.


Very true. But it's not enough to say, "I thought he might intimidate me if I confronted him."
Last edited by teaadntoast on Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:39 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I don't think the onus should be on us to confront the person, though. From what I understand, people who experience harassment of any sort are expected to tell the person to stop, and then do so again if it continues. Only if these measures fail to stop the behavior do they have a claim. I might be mistaken about this, and I hope someone will correct me if I am, but my understanding is that getting unwanted behavior stopped is largely made the responsibility of the party with less power.



...of course it is. I'm not really sure where you're going with this. Who else can report something besides the person being harrassed? It would be great if someone on equal footing with whoever is messing with you sees the behavior and reports it, but thats hardly something to bank on. Besides, sometimes the harrassment comes from someone on your exact same level.

The person being a dick isn't going to turn themselves in. I mean, I'm a little confused by your logic here. I think its a given that a person being wronged (in any circumstance-harrassment/robbery/whatever) must be the one to take steps to stop/fix the situation.

OperaSoprano wrote:The fact that multiple people on here have walked instead of combating the behavior should illustrate all that is wrong with this model. The laws exist, which is awesome, but people can absolutely be intimidated into not taking advantage of them. My situation was complicated by the fact that my boss was the head of the organization, and he was obviously ill. I viewed it as an act of power to say "screw you" and walk away.


This baffles me.

Yes, people can be intimidated into not taking advantage of them. But thats not an excuse to be intimidated. Often when someone reports behavior, a bunch of other hands become raised. Just because it can be hard and awkward doesn't mean its not the right thing to do.
Last edited by Pearalegal on Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rayiner
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby rayiner » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:43 pm

joshikousei wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Ew.

Ew. ew. ew.


:? yeah, that ^ x 1000000000000000. the guy was more than twice my age and not in a george clooney kind of mid-40s way. i go with my gut, and in this case, it was screaming at me.


So creeping on coworkers is only wrong if you're old/unattractive?

I've adopted a much simpler rule. Your coworkers are there for work, not fun. No dating, creeping, etc, EVER.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Aeroplane » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:44 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I don't think the onus should be on us to confront the person, though. From what I understand, people who experience harassment of any sort are expected to tell the person to stop, and then do so again if it continues. Only if these measures fail to stop the behavior do they have a claim. I might be mistaken about this, and I hope someone will correct me if I am, but my understanding is that getting unwanted behavior stopped is largely made the responsibility of the party with less power.

...of course it is. I'm not really sure where you're going with this. Who else can report something besides the person being harrassed? It would be great if someone on equal footing with whoever is messing with you sees the behavior and reports it, but thats hardly something to bank on. Besides, sometimes the harrassment comes from someone on your exact same level.

The person being a dick isn't going to turn themselves in. I mean, I'm a little confused by your logic here. I think its a given that a person being wronged (in any circumstance-harrassment/robbery/whatever) must be the one to take steps to stop/fix the situation.

OperaSoprano wrote:The fact that multiple people on here have walked instead of combating the behavior should illustrate all that is wrong with this model. The laws exist, which is awesome, but people can absolutely be intimidated into not taking advantage of them. My situation was complicated by the fact that my boss was the head of the organization, and he was obviously ill. I viewed it as an act of power to say "screw you" and walk away.


This baffles me.

Yes, people can be intimidated into not taking advantage of them. But thats not an excuse to be intimidated. Often when someone reports behavior, a bunch of other hands become raised. Just because it can be hard and awkward doesn't mean its not the right thing to do.
I don't see what's so baffling. There are often extremely compelling reasons not to report, much more substantial than "it's hard and awkward". I admire people who do, but I'm certainly not baffled by those who don't.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:47 pm

rayiner wrote:
joshikousei wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Ew.

Ew. ew. ew.


:? yeah, that ^ x 1000000000000000. the guy was more than twice my age and not in a george clooney kind of mid-40s way. i go with my gut, and in this case, it was screaming at me.


So creeping on coworkers is only wrong if you're old/unattractive?


It's always wrong if you're married.

And it's not wrong for older, less attractive men to make overtures, but most of the time it looks pretty pathetic.

rayiner wrote:I've adopted a much simpler rule. Your coworkers are there for work, not fun. No dating, creeping, etc, EVER.


+ elevendy billion

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joshikousei
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby joshikousei » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:50 pm

rayiner wrote: So creeping on coworkers is only wrong if you're old/unattractive?


haha, no, of course not. most of my friends who've gone through similar trials have actually been creeped on by people of similar age/level. it was just this particular case in my circumstance.

I've adopted a much simpler rule. Your coworkers are there for work, not fun. No dating, creeping, etc, EVER.


agreed. or rather, no one nearly compelling enough to make me go all alias on them. though my old workplace was pretty incestuous. horrible.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:57 pm

rayiner wrote:
joshikousei wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:Ew.

Ew. ew. ew.


:? yeah, that ^ x 1000000000000000. the guy was more than twice my age and not in a george clooney kind of mid-40s way. i go with my gut, and in this case, it was screaming at me.


So creeping on coworkers is only wrong if you're old/unattractive?

I've adopted a much simpler rule. Your coworkers are there for work, not fun. No dating, creeping, etc, EVER.


<3 Ray.

I'm not saying that it isn't the right thing to do to make some creep pay through the nose for his creepiness. I'm explaining why, on a practical level, psychological factors often prevent women from doing this. We all think we'll stand up and take someone down, until it happens.

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gahthelaw
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby gahthelaw » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:03 pm

another reason people (of both genders, im sure) don't always report things that make them uncomfortable in the workplace is because there isn't always a clear "HR" department to report to. I know where I currently work, I would have no idea where to complain if something happened. this is especially true if it's during an interview, since HR is not really designed to be very accessible to you until you are hired. without knowing where complaints should be directed, you risk branding yourself a complainer, rumor-monger, or gossip because it may take multiple attempts to be heard by the right people.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Aeroplane » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:08 pm

joshikousei wrote:
rayiner wrote: I've adopted a much simpler rule. Your coworkers are there for work, not fun. No dating, creeping, etc, EVER.


agreed. or rather, no one nearly compelling enough to make me go all alias on them. though my old workplace was pretty incestuous. horrible.
I think this takes it too far. My take on this is affected by my WE with a huge company that hired lots of people straight out of school, many of whom would stick around for 10,20,30,40 years. I knew lots of couples, including married ones, who met their spouse through the company. I think that in a big enough workplace, as long as you keep your fishing outside of your immediate work group and outside your chain of command, it's OK to keep an eye out for attractive guys/chicks at work events, in the cafeteria, etc.

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chadwick218
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:12 pm

According to quite a few posts on ATL, the answer is "yes."

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:13 pm

chadwick218 wrote:According to quite a few posts on ATL, the answer is "yes."


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the folks at ATL might not be hugely, um, objective rightthissecond?

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chadwick218
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:15 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:According to quite a few posts on ATL, the answer is "yes."


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the folks at ATL might not be hugely, um, objective rightthissecond?


Naturally, but it makes for a great read! My personal opinion is that it is just another soft ... taken by itself, it will not make any difference.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:16 pm

chadwick218 wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:According to quite a few posts on ATL, the answer is "yes."


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the folks at ATL might not be hugely, um, objective rightthissecond?


Naturally, but it makes for a great read! My personal opinion is that it is just another soft ... taken by itself, it will not make any difference.


What ATL post are you referencing?

Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:18 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I'm not saying that it isn't the right thing to do to make some creep pay through the nose for his creepiness. I'm explaining why, on a practical level, psychological factors often prevent women from doing this. We all think we'll stand up and take someone down, until it happens.


I just think explaining it away as intimidating contributes to a sense of "oh well, just another thing that sucks about being a woman." Theres no need for that.

In case you're trying to insinuate that I'm just standing on principles and not experience, I did stand up and take someone down, it really isn't all that intimidating.

gahthelaw wrote:another reason people (of both genders, im sure) don't always report things that make them uncomfortable in the workplace is because there isn't always a clear "HR" department to report to. I know where I currently work, I would have no idea where to complain if something happened. this is especially true if it's during an interview, since HR is not really designed to be very accessible to you until you are hired. without knowing where complaints should be directed, you risk branding yourself a complainer, rumor-monger, or gossip because it may take multiple attempts to be heard by the right people.


This is true. I've been luckily enough that all the companies I have spent time at as an intern or full-employee have obvious and large chains of command. Definitely a plus.

But so what if you get branded something negative--is it worse than standing back and allowing someone to get away with repeat behavior without being proactive at all? Regardless, most of the time by law, any and all complaints are kept confidential during investigations.

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chadwick218
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby chadwick218 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:18 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:
chadwick218 wrote:According to quite a few posts on ATL, the answer is "yes."


I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the folks at ATL might not be hugely, um, objective rightthissecond?


Naturally, but it makes for a great read! My personal opinion is that it is just another soft ... taken by itself, it will not make any difference.


What ATL post are you referencing?


Off hand, I don't recall, but it was in reference to Katten.

Kant
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Kant » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:23 pm

It's all the fault of you women for seducing your employers.

The world was a peaceful wonderful place till the fair sex arrived....at least according to all the mythologies that were written by a wise man a very long time ago.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:24 pm

Pearalegal wrote: But so what if you get branded something negative--is it worse than standing back and allowing someone to get away with repeat behavior without being proactive at all? Regardless, most of the time by law, any and all complaints are kept confidential during investigations.


It may not be worse, but it's no picnic, especially when there isn't another job waiting for you elsewhere.
Last edited by teaadntoast on Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aeroplane
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Aeroplane » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:27 pm

Pearalegal wrote:This is true. I've been luckily enough that all the companies I have spent time at as an intern or full-employee have obvious and large chains of command. Definitely a plus.

But so what if you get branded something negative--is it worse than standing back and allowing someone to get away with repeat behavior without being proactive at all? Regardless, most of the time by law, any and all complaints are kept confidential during investigations.
You could lose your job (which might pay much more than any other you could get in your area), give up any chance of advancement, become unemployable in your industry, lose a career that you have invested years in, face ostracism, stepped up harassment, and/or physical retaliation from fellow coworkers. Sometimes none of the dangers I listed are present, sometimes several are.

Edit: and don't expect confidentiality if the other party gets wind of your complaint.

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joshikousei
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby joshikousei » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:36 pm

Aeroplane wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:This is true. I've been luckily enough that all the companies I have spent time at as an intern or full-employee have obvious and large chains of command. Definitely a plus.

But so what if you get branded something negative--is it worse than standing back and allowing someone to get away with repeat behavior without being proactive at all? Regardless, most of the time by law, any and all complaints are kept confidential during investigations.
You could lose your job (which might pay much more than any other you could get in your area), give up any chance of advancement, become unemployable in your industry, lose a career that you have invested years in, face ostracism, stepped up harassment, and/or physical retaliation from fellow coworkers. Sometimes none of the dangers I listed are present, sometimes several are.

Edit: and don't expect confidentiality if the other party gets wind of your complaint.


morgan stanley and allison schieffelin come to mind: http://www.kamalsinha.com/morganstanley/ and http://www.reuters.com/article/bankingf ... 0120070706. ITE, MS got its ass whooped by the courts in a case where the system worked. but i can assure you that that sexual discrimination is pervasive, especially in the finance world.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:41 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I'm not saying that it isn't the right thing to do to make some creep pay through the nose for his creepiness. I'm explaining why, on a practical level, psychological factors often prevent women from doing this. We all think we'll stand up and take someone down, until it happens.


I just think explaining it away as intimidating contributes to a sense of "oh well, just another thing that sucks about being a woman." Theres no need for that.

In case you're trying to insinuate that I'm just standing on principles and not experience, I did stand up and take someone down, it really isn't all that intimidating.

gahthelaw wrote:another reason people (of both genders, im sure) don't always report things that make them uncomfortable in the workplace is because there isn't always a clear "HR" department to report to. I know where I currently work, I would have no idea where to complain if something happened. this is especially true if it's during an interview, since HR is not really designed to be very accessible to you until you are hired. without knowing where complaints should be directed, you risk branding yourself a complainer, rumor-monger, or gossip because it may take multiple attempts to be heard by the right people.


This is true. I've been luckily enough that all the companies I have spent time at as an intern or full-employee have obvious and large chains of command. Definitely a plus.

But so what if you get branded something negative--is it worse than standing back and allowing someone to get away with repeat behavior without being proactive at all? Regardless, most of the time by law, any and all complaints are kept confidential during investigations.


Oh, I wasn't insinuating anything. People have differing experiences. In my case, there was no chain of command to tell. I could have attempted legal action, or I could have walked. It's not one of those things that "sucks about being a woman." It's one of those things that sucks about being exploited, regardless of one's age or gender. I don't regret the choice I made, since my employer was obviously psychologically unable to grasp that his behavior was inappropriate.

It takes serious courage to stand up to someone, and I applaud you for doing it. In a perfect world, there would be no chance of retaliation for doing so.

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Matthies
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Matthies » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:52 pm

Unfortunately I was not born or hot or female, if I was I would have just married a lawyer rather than going through all the work to become one. Well in a state where you get half at least.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:21 pm

Matthies wrote:Unfortunately I was not born or hot or female, if I was I would have just married a lawyer rather than going through all the work to become one. Well in a state where you get half at least.


Too close for comfort... seriously.

Me: Shit, I want to go into public interest, but I have ginormous loans. If IBR goes away, I am screwed.

Well meaning friend: I have the perfect solution for you!

Me: You do?

Well meaning friend: Yes! Plenty of Fordham grads go into biglaw, even ITE. Just marry one of your classmates and prosper!

Me: *(()@$)^&)@)&....

I can assure you that this conversation actually happened. (In fact, I heard this from several people.) I didn't go on a profanity bender, but I definitely let the speaker know that I was not about to spend $225k to become someone's trophy wife. I do have several female friends who would jump at such an opportunity, unfortunately. I'm sure you were joking, but it definitely happens.

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Matthies
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Matthies » Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:28 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Matthies wrote:Unfortunately I was not born or hot or female, if I was I would have just married a lawyer rather than going through all the work to become one. Well in a state where you get half at least.


Too close for comfort... seriously.

Me: Shit, I want to go into public interest, but I have ginormous loans. If IBR goes away, I am screwed.

Well meaning friend: I have the perfect solution for you!

Me: You do?

Well meaning friend: Yes! Plenty of Fordham grads go into biglaw, even ITE. Just marry one of your classmates and prosper!

Me: *(()@$)^&)@)&....

I can assure you that this conversation actually happened. (In fact, I heard this from several people.) I didn't go on a profanity bender, but I definitely let the speaker know that I was not about to spend $225k to become someone's trophy wife. I do have several female friends who would jump at such an opportunity, unfortunately. I'm sure you were joking, but it definitely happens.


Belive me if I could have married into it instead of taking the bar I would have. You need to study at NYU or Columbia law libray and find yourself a graduating SCOTUS clerk, get married, have him pay for school, then dump him when you graduate. Problem solved. Starter marrgies are all the rave these days anyway




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