Attractive females and SA hiring

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Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:59 am

joshikousei wrote:
i avoided him for the rest of the summer, still got a job offer after graduation, declined offer, and totally ignored his email requesting for drinks when i got back to school. :D


I realize I might be sounding like a douche in this thread, but I don't get what the heck is going on. First off, I hope you didn't decline the offer because of this.

Second, if behavior makes you feel very uncomfortable, do something about it! Don't just avoid the situation and sit back.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:01 am

Dead Ringer wrote:I see OS is adding some more posts to her all time most moronic. You better be prepared to take what you can get ITE, and I doubt you are subtle enough to even know whether you are being hired for your looks or not.


Your implication being that, ITE, individuals ought to be prepared to tolerate sexual harassment in order to get or keep a job?

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gahthelaw
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby gahthelaw » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:04 am

Pearalegal wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:i may have overstated. i definitely agree with looking classy, and would never advocate looking disheveled or frumpy, because that's obviously got its negatives too. i think it's really important to look appropriate, whatever appropriate looks like on a specific person. it might just be a different experience living in different bodies - if i wore the same amount of makeup and dressed the way other some other people can, I'd get a lot of attention I wouldn't be happy about. Some of the girls I work with can look classy and elegant and entirely office appropriate in things that would make me look like Jessica Rabbit. The important thing is to strike a balance between the degree to which you inherently look feminine and how much you emphasize it in your style.


I shouldn't have jumped all over your post like that.

But I sort of think looking appropriate for the office is a very obvious given...and you can look appropriate and absolutely stunning. I think you're using the word "feminine" as a substitute for "voluptuous."

I don't know whats "downplaying" about that though. Thats just getting dressed for work.

I've run into these problems several times as well, but I know it doesn't have anything to do with me and its 100% about the other person. I report anything that needs to be reported and shrug off and make it clear where my line is for anything that doesn't warrant any real action. I don't worry about what I'll wear to work the next day, though.


fair enough. being assertive enough to report things when necessary is definitely a behavior more people should adopt. if you don't it just continues to piss you off.

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joshikousei
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby joshikousei » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:04 am

.
Last edited by joshikousei on Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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gahthelaw
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby gahthelaw » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:07 am

joshikousei wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:
joshikousei wrote:or semi-bosses at workplaces who invite you to drinks at bars. i still have the awkward exchange of emails soliciting advice from friends on how to deal.


oof. what about totally ignoring the e-mail and avoiding eye contact at all costs?


Fixt?


i avoided him for the rest of the summer, still got a job offer after graduation, declined offer, and totally ignored his email requesting for drinks when i got back to school. :D

NB: unlike OS or pear or gah, i look like an underage, un-voluptuous school girl, so i think this semi-boss may have had a thing for that. so here's proof that it's really all about the other dude - slimeballs will go after anything.


ugh. good call ignoring the email but i second pear's note that i really hope you didn't decline the offer because of it.

edit: woops - didnt see your response. which indicates that it might be time for me to pass out... glad you didn't decline on his account.

Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:10 am

joshikousei wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:I realize I might be sounding like a douche in this thread, but I don't get what the heck is going on. First off, I hope you didn't decline the offer because of this.

Second, if behavior makes you feel very uncomfortable, do something about it! Don't just avoid the situation and sit back.


yeah, i get what you're saying. i was 19 or 20 at the time, it was my first time in the corporate sphere, and i was naive and very ill-prepared for the situation. initially i didn't feel that the behavior was atypical ("this is just networking and mentorship, right?"), but in retrospect, he was definitely gunning for more. now, at my ripe old age of 2X, i would have called him out.

and no, i didn't decline the offer because of that. i got a better one. 8)


Awesome. Apologies if I came off sounding like I was on a soapbox.

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gahthelaw
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby gahthelaw » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:12 am

Pearalegal wrote:
joshikousei wrote:
Pearalegal wrote:I realize I might be sounding like a douche in this thread, but I don't get what the heck is going on. First off, I hope you didn't decline the offer because of this.

Second, if behavior makes you feel very uncomfortable, do something about it! Don't just avoid the situation and sit back.


yeah, i get what you're saying. i was 19 or 20 at the time, it was my first time in the corporate sphere, and i was naive and very ill-prepared for the situation. initially i didn't feel that the behavior was atypical ("this is just networking and mentorship, right?"), but in retrospect, he was definitely gunning for more. now, at my ripe old age of 2X, i would have called him out.

and no, i didn't decline the offer because of that. i got a better one. 8)


Awesome. Apologies if I came off sounding like I was on a soapbox.


i'm always glad when someone kicks me in the ass and tells me to go be a grown up and stand up for myself.

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joshikousei
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby joshikousei » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:12 am

Pearalegal wrote:
Awesome. Apologies if I came off sounding like I was on a soapbox.


not at all. i regret not having the balls when i was 20. obviously not enough experience in saying no to college jerks.

good night gah :p

Anonymous User
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Anonymous User » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:01 am

FWIW it's not just females anymore. I'd say about half the initial interviewers on our campus are female, and let's not pretend they aren't partially motivated by sex.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:47 pm

joshikousei wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I feel like even toning it down (but in an elegant way) doesn't prevent unwanted attention. I absolutely feel for you, because I have similar problems.


OS could wear a brown paper bag and it wouldn't prevent unwanted attention. :mrgreen:

the female role models in firms are often not that encouraging. but there are examples out there... i'm sure.


Darling, you are gorgeous, and TLS already knows of your brilliance. It is a problem, though, for many of us. We all have sense enough to dress professionally in professional settings, and it just pisses me off that some people think low level sexual harassment is par for the course in this economy, or in any other. People tend not to take us as seriously, for the plain reasons that we are young and female. (There are a few upsides, though. Chivalry isn't dead, even in midtown Manhattan. I think of it as mere politeness, though, and it's the same courtesy I would show to an elderly or physically handicapped person. If it veers into creepiness, at least outside the workplace we can walk away.)

Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:54 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:it just pisses me off that some people think low level sexual harassment is par for the course in this economy, or in any other. People tend not to take us as seriously, for the plain reasons that we are young and female.


I don't think anyone really said that. The rather rude comment directed at you earlier was more in reference to the fact they seemed to assume you wouldn't really be able to tell what factor your appearance played into the hiring process and shouldn't base accepting an offer on something that may or may not be there.

I don't like the victim mentality though. "At least outside of the workplace we can walk away." I'd argue you can be far more effective to combat it in the workplace, with all the ways to report offenses/laws.

katieg
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby katieg » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:10 pm

joshikousei wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:
joshikousei wrote:or semi-bosses at workplaces who invite you to drinks at bars. i still have the awkward exchange of emails soliciting advice from friends on how to deal.


oof. what about replying with an upbeat 'sounds great, i told [blank], [blank], and [blank] about it as well. they said it sounds like a great idea for team bonding and they're in.'


that would have been a great idea, except he actually didn't mentor any of my other intern friends. :| my SO at the time just laughed at me for getting into the mess. very unhelpful.

last email the semi-boss sent went something like this: "Wanted to let you know am going to spending a few days ...... an hour north of [where i lived]. if you are [where i lived] at the time, maybe we can get together for some drinks"

awkward.



What is so wrong about this? He merely asked you out on a date. I don't what your relationship to this guy is, so he may very well be a creep, but you make it sound like he asked to have sex with you by the water cooler.

It also depends on how old he is. I mean are we talking about someone who's 25 or someone who's in their mid 40s.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:13 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:it just pisses me off that some people think low level sexual harassment is par for the course in this economy, or in any other. People tend not to take us as seriously, for the plain reasons that we are young and female.


I don't think anyone really said that.


Dead Ringer wrote:I see OS is adding some more posts to her all time most moronic. You better be prepared to take what you can get ITE, and I doubt you are subtle enough to even know whether you are being hired for your looks or not.


I believe the bolded portion is what OS is referencing and I have to say that, yeah, absent any additional clarification it looks a lot like somone saying "put up and shut up because there isn't anything better out there right now."

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joshikousei
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby joshikousei » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:14 pm

.
Last edited by joshikousei on Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:17 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
Dead Ringer wrote:I see OS is adding some more posts to her all time most moronic. You better be prepared to take what you can get ITE, and I doubt you are subtle enough to even know whether you are being hired for your looks or not.


I believe the bolded portion is what OS is referencing and I have to say that, yeah, absent any additional clarification it looks a lot like somone saying "put up and shut up because there isn't anything better out there right now."


I sort of found the clarification when he explained what about OS' opinion he was objecting to. She was talking about being hired in part because of her looks, not because the interviewer asked for the blow job and she went with it.

I still think it was an asshole post, and not worth the time I just took to type that out.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:17 pm

katieg wrote: What is so wrong about this? He merely asked you out on a date. I don't what your relationship to this guy is, so he may very well be a creep, but you make it sound like he asked to have sex with you by the water cooler.

It also depends on how old he is. I mean are we talking about someone who's 25 or someone who's in their mid 40s.


No one said it was wrong. Lots of people go on dates with folks they meet in a professional capacity. There's a reason, though, that most business strongly discourage fraternization between co-workers, particularly when one of them holds a superior position.

It's awkward enough rejecting someone's advances. When that person has the ability to either make your life miserable or exert continued pressure because he's your boss things are much dicier. And there's no way to know how a person will react.

And I fail to see where it was implied that her response was out of proportion.

Edited to add: In light of the additional detail below, I think we can all agree that the request was hugely creepy. And wrong. And ew.
Last edited by teaadntoast on Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby dresden doll » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:18 pm

I am on the iPhone and therefore limited w/r/t to posting so I am glad to see that tea is taking care of business, as per usual really.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:20 pm

joshikousei wrote:
katieg wrote:What is so wrong about this? He merely asked you out on a date. I don't what your relationship to this guy is, so he may very well be a creep, but you make it sound like he asked to have sex with you by the water cooler.

It also depends on how old he is. I mean are we talking about someone who's 25 or someone who's in their mid 40s.


for anonymity's sake, i left out a lot of details (e.g. the number of emails, the number of requests, etc.). re: your question, mid-40s, married, senior managing director level.


Ew.

Ew. ew. ew.

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JordynAsh
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby JordynAsh » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:21 pm

[edited for memory fail]
Last edited by JordynAsh on Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:22 pm

None of this would be a problem if we just banned women from the workplace. (expect of course for nursing, teaching, and prostitution)

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teaadntoast
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby teaadntoast » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:23 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:None of this would be a problem if we just banned women from the workplace. (expect of course for nursing, teaching, and prostitution)


Since you're the ones who lack self control, I think it would be best if y'all were relegated to the home and tasked with cooking, cleaning and other duties that minimize the liklihood of your coming into contact with women and doing something unfortunate. We'd be saving you from yourselves, really.

( :wink: )

katieg
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby katieg » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:25 pm

joshikousei wrote:
katieg wrote:What is so wrong about this? He merely asked you out on a date. I don't what your relationship to this guy is, so he may very well be a creep, but you make it sound like he asked to have sex with you by the water cooler.

It also depends on how old he is. I mean are we talking about someone who's 25 or someone who's in their mid 40s.


for anonymity's sake, i left out a lot of details (e.g. the number of emails, the number of requests, etc.). re: your question, mid-40s, [strike]married[/strike] single/potentially divorced, senior managing director level.


Ya that is not right.

Pearalegal
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Pearalegal » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:25 pm

JordynAsh wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
prospect14 wrote:I'm being curious here, but is there any credence to the notion that physically attractive females that have unremarkable credentials from a lower T1, T2, T3, T4 school get hired in biglaw because of their looks?


If men or lesbians are doing the hiring, then probably. I'm pretty sure it's like that in every profession and good looking people generally have it easier in life, e.g. Jon Hamm in 30 Rock.


Sorry, this is a little nit picky and definitely off topic, but as 30 Rock and Mad Men are my favorite shows, I am compelled to point out that JON HAMM IS ON MAD MEN, NOT 30 ROCK.

/anal retentive rant


He was referring to Jon Hamm's guest appearance. It was about how life is easy for him because hes attractive. Duh.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:32 pm

JordynAsh wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
prospect14 wrote:I'm being curious here, but is there any credence to the notion that physically attractive females that have unremarkable credentials from a lower T1, T2, T3, T4 school get hired in biglaw because of their looks?


If men or lesbians are doing the hiring, then probably. I'm pretty sure it's like that in every profession and good looking people generally have it easier in life, e.g. Jon Hamm in 30 Rock.


Sorry, this is a little nit picky and definitely off topic, but as 30 Rock and Mad Men are my favorite shows, I am compelled to point out that JON HAMM IS ON MAD MEN, NOT 30 ROCK.

/anal retentive rant


wtf :lol:

For them being your favorite shows, you certainly don't keep up on them. And they're two of my favorites as well.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Attractive females and SA hiring

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:32 pm

Pearalegal wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:it just pisses me off that some people think low level sexual harassment is par for the course in this economy, or in any other. People tend not to take us as seriously, for the plain reasons that we are young and female.


I don't think anyone really said that. The rather rude comment directed at you earlier was more in reference to the fact they seemed to assume you wouldn't really be able to tell what factor your appearance played into the hiring process and shouldn't base accepting an offer on something that may or may not be there.

I don't like the victim mentality though. "At least outside of the workplace we can walk away." I'd argue you can be far more effective to combat it in the workplace, with all the ways to report offenses/laws.


Looks based hiring is often not obvious until after employment has started. As I said earlier, it's not really an issue if higher ups behave respectfully after the fact.

I don't think the onus should be on us to confront the person, though. From what I understand, people who experience harassment of any sort are expected to tell the person to stop, and then do so again if it continues. Only if these measures fail to stop the behavior do they have a claim. I might be mistaken about this, and I hope someone will correct me if I am, but my understanding is that getting unwanted behavior stopped is largely made the responsibility of the party with less power.

The fact that multiple people on here have walked instead of combating the behavior should illustrate all that is wrong with this model. The laws exist, which is awesome, but people can absolutely be intimidated into not taking advantage of them. My situation was complicated by the fact that my boss was the head of the organization, and he was obviously ill. I viewed it as an act of power to say "screw you" and walk away.




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