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prospect14 wrote:

ejjones wrote: Um maybe. All I can say, is I've been on several firm pages where there were a lot of attractive females, disproportionately so it seemed. I think most of them went to good schools or strong regional T2s. I don' tknow if they passed up more qualified candidates, who knows? Basically, this post is kinda ridiculous. I don't think the sexiest females from Cooley has a shot at Biglaw or any T4.

Ridiculous? I posed an honest question I was curious about. Cooley? Seriously, I post here, I'm not stretching it that far about hypotheticals.

Yeah, a little. Seemed like more of a joke. Obviously you post here, that doesn't mean this thread should be taken seriously or that you have any credence because you have x number of posts. Cooley is a T4, so you did stretch that far by including T4s in your initial post. If I had thrown in non-ABA schools, than you could suggest that I took what your post stated and went beyond what was written.

Also, I said any T4, but what I should've said is any T2/3/4. Even before the economic shit storm, T3/4 grads didn't have a shot and a very small percentage of T2s placed into Biglaw, so posing the question as to whether one's attractiveness could put a T2/3/4 JD in a Biglaw job is a bit ridiculous. Has it happened, probably.

rayiner wrote:

Dead Ringer wrote:I see OS is adding some more posts to her all time most moronic. You better be prepared to take what you can get ITE, and I doubt you are subtle enough to even know whether you are being hired for your looks or not.

Tagging this thread so I can watch the carnage when Dresden and Tea get a hold of this post.

ditts

OperaSoprano wrote: Haha, you say that, but it might not lead anywhere good. My (female) friends and I have been subjected to plenty of creepy male behavior in the workplace, though most of it didn't rise to the level of harassment. It was just, well, creepy. Older and wiser (I'm 24, lol), I definitely would not want to get in any door that was opened due to my appearance. It's just a bad idea.

Its possible you wouldn't actually know.

Almost every woman has been the victim of creepy behavior at some point in the workplace--even the less fortunate ones. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean if you're attractive you need to question any hiring decisions. Who the hell cares if one of the reasons someone thinks positively about your interview is because you know how to pull yourself together.

Don't walk in with your tits hanging out, and don't sleep your way into a position. Just rock your job once you get there.

Lxw wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Dead Ringer wrote:I see OS is adding some more posts to her all time most moronic. You better be prepared to take what you can get ITE, and I doubt you are subtle enough to even know whether you are being hired for your looks or not.

Tagging this thread so I can watch the carnage when Dresden and Tea get a hold of this post.

ditts

I agree that I came off like a jerk here, but os comes off like a complete ingenue more or less all the time. If pointing that out makes me totally friendless on a message board so be it.

Gravity gets to us all.

Dead Ringer wrote:I agree that I came off like a jerk here, but os comes off like a complete ingenue more or less all the time. If pointing that out makes me totally friendless on a message board so be it.

At first I was like typo? Then I said no, it could be a word. So I looked it up and hey it means naive girl. Learn something new everyday.

Dead Ringer wrote:

Lxw wrote:

rayiner wrote:

Dead Ringer wrote:I see OS is adding some more posts to her all time most moronic. You better be prepared to take what you can get ITE, and I doubt you are subtle enough to even know whether you are being hired for your looks or not.

Tagging this thread so I can watch the carnage when Dresden and Tea get a hold of this post.

ditts

I agree that I came off like a jerk here, but os comes off like a complete ingenue more or less all the time. If pointing that out makes me totally friendless on a message board so be it.

From Wikipedia:

"In opera and musical theatre, the ingenue is usually sung by a lyric soprano. The ingenue stereotypically has the fawn-eyed innocence of a child.

The ingenue is often accompanied with a romantic side plot. This romance is usually considered pure and harmless to both participants. In many cases, but not all, the male participant is just as innocent as the ingenue is."

I don't have the right voice type to sing Carmen or Tosca.




I am flattered that my friends defend me so well, whether I deserve it or not. You all are lovely, as per usual. It should be noted that I'm 24, and I live in NYC, so I've seen at least some of the shit in the world. Refusal to be cynical is a choice.

at the end of an interview, the interviewer once asked if i wanted to have sex with him. when i declined, he wouldn't let me leave the room until i promised not to tell his higher-ups. though it was offered, i didn't take the job.

i'm no model but not being butt-ugly has its downsides too.

gahthelaw wrote:at the end of an interview, the interviewer once asked if i wanted to have sex with him. when i declined, he wouldn't let me leave the room until i promised not to tell his higher-ups. though it was offered, i didn't take the job.

i'm no model but not being butt-ugly has its downsides too.

I hope you told his higher-ups, immediately and forcefully. If you didn't...what the fuck were you thinking? Even if you didn't have any evidence and nothing comes of it, you report that shit.

Pearalegal wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:at the end of an interview, the interviewer once asked if i wanted to have sex with him. when i declined, he wouldn't let me leave the room until i promised not to tell his higher-ups. though it was offered, i didn't take the job.

i'm no model but not being butt-ugly has its downsides too.

I hope you told his higher-ups, immediately and forcefully. If you didn't...what the fuck were you thinking? Even if you didn't have any evidence and nothing comes of it, you report that shit.

now i would (and wish I had). then I was 20 and terrified and wanted to out asap.

gahthelaw wrote:

Pearalegal wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:at the end of an interview, the interviewer once asked if i wanted to have sex with him. when i declined, he wouldn't let me leave the room until i promised not to tell his higher-ups. though it was offered, i didn't take the job.

i'm no model but not being butt-ugly has its downsides too.

I hope you told his higher-ups, immediately and forcefully. If you didn't...what the fuck were you thinking? Even if you didn't have any evidence and nothing comes of it, you report that shit.

now i would (and wish I had). then I was 20 and terrified and wanted to out asap.

Grrr. How long ago was this?

Pearalegal wrote:

OperaSoprano wrote: Haha, you say that, but it might not lead anywhere good. My (female) friends and I have been subjected to plenty of creepy male behavior in the workplace, though most of it didn't rise to the level of harassment. It was just, well, creepy. Older and wiser (I'm 24, lol), I definitely would not want to get in any door that was opened due to my appearance. It's just a bad idea.

Its possible you wouldn't actually know.

Almost every woman has been the victim of creepy behavior at some point in the workplace--even the less fortunate ones. That doesn't make it right, but it also doesn't mean if you're attractive you need to question any hiring decisions. Who the hell cares if one of the reasons someone thinks positively about your interview is because you know how to pull yourself together.

Don't walk in with your tits hanging out, and don't sleep your way into a position. Just rock your job once you get there.

Not bad advice overall. It is possible you wouldn't know, if the person responsible for your hiring acted in a professional manner on an ongoing basis. In this case, I would certainly have no quarrel with the practice, though it's hardly ideal. I recognize the truth of M51's post: human beings are drawn to beauty. Hopefully those in a position to hire will operate within the bounds of common sense.

Pearalegal wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:

Pearalegal wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:at the end of an interview, the interviewer once asked if i wanted to have sex with him. when i declined, he wouldn't let me leave the room until i promised not to tell his higher-ups. though it was offered, i didn't take the job.

i'm no model but not being butt-ugly has its downsides too.

I hope you told his higher-ups, immediately and forcefully. If you didn't...what the fuck were you thinking? Even if you didn't have any evidence and nothing comes of it, you report that shit.

now i would (and wish I had). then I was 20 and terrified and wanted to out asap.

Grrr. How long ago was this?

almost 4 years. the position at the time was an internship, so maybe he figured i wouldn't stick with the line of work anyway. now older and wiser (and bitter-er?), i'm sort of holding out for the day when i meet him in a professional context again (the pool of people in our specialization is small enough to make it not unlikely).

anyway the point is that no matter how conservatively you may dress and how appropriately you may act, slimy people are to be found in myriad places. attractiveness isn't always an asset in the interview process - it may make people think that you are less intelligent, less professional, less experienced, etc. IMO if you've got it, downplay it.

gahthelaw wrote: IMO if you've got it, downplay it.

I completely disagree with this and somewhat think its borderline sexist. You're right, some people will always be jerks in any situation for any reason. But....

Don't change yourself and downplay any part of yourself because of it. Be classy and look good, look damn good.

If someone can't handle a woman with the full package, and chose to judge them on it, thats on them. But if you try to look less attractive in hopes of being taken more seriously, thats on you.

gahthelaw wrote:
almost 4 years. the position at the time was an internship, so maybe he figured i wouldn't stick with the line of work anyway. now older and wiser (and bitter-er?), i'm sort of holding out for the day when i meet him in a professional context again (the pool of people in our specialization is small enough to make it not unlikely).

anyway the point is that no matter how conservatively you may dress and how appropriately you may act, slimy people are to be found in myriad places. attractiveness isn't always an asset in the interview process - it may make people think that you are less intelligent, less professional, less experienced, etc. IMO if you've got it, downplay it.

All this is 100% true. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Similar experiences. I think all women our age get this crap, though; every single one of my friends has had to deal with some dick who forgot he was in a workplace and not a bar. My friends are pretty girls, but they don't dress or act provocatively at work. I think we should be able to keep our femininity, though, without fear of obnoxious behavior.

OperaSoprano wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:
almost 4 years. the position at the time was an internship, so maybe he figured i wouldn't stick with the line of work anyway. now older and wiser (and bitter-er?), i'm sort of holding out for the day when i meet him in a professional context again (the pool of people in our specialization is small enough to make it not unlikely).

anyway the point is that no matter how conservatively you may dress and how appropriately you may act, slimy people are to be found in myriad places. attractiveness isn't always an asset in the interview process - it may make people think that you are less intelligent, less professional, less experienced, etc. IMO if you've got it, downplay it.

All this is 100% true. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Similar experiences. I think all women our age get this crap, though; every single one of my friends has had to deal with some dick who forgot he was in a workplace and not a bar. My friends are pretty girls, but they don't dress or act provocatively at work. I think we should be able to keep our femininity, though, without fear of obnoxious behavior.

It may be true, but if you alter your behavior to try to avoid it, you're only furthering the problem.

OperaSoprano wrote: All this is 100% true. I'm sorry you had to go through that. Similar experiences. I think all women our age get this crap, though; every single one of my friends has had to deal with some dick who forgot he was in a workplace and not a bar.

or semi-bosses at workplaces who invite you to drinks at bars. i still have the awkward exchange of emails soliciting advice from friends on how to deal.

I think we should be able to keep our femininity, though, without fear of obnoxious behavior.

definitely.

Pearalegal wrote:

gahthelaw wrote: IMO if you've got it, downplay it.

I completely disagree with this and somewhat think its borderline sexist. You're right, some people will always be jerks in any situation for any reason. But....

Don't change yourself and downplay any part of yourself because of it. Be classy and look good, look damn good.

If someone can't handle a woman with the full package, and chose to judge them on it, thats on them. But if you try to look less attractive in hopes of being taken more seriously, thats on you.

i may have overstated. i definitely agree with looking classy, and would never advocate looking disheveled or frumpy, because that's obviously got its negatives too. i think it's really important to look appropriate, whatever appropriate looks like on a specific person. it might just be a different experience living in different bodies - if i wore the same amount of makeup and dressed the way other some other people can, I'd get a lot of attention I wouldn't be happy about. Some of the girls I work with can look classy and elegant and entirely office appropriate in things that would make me look like Jessica Rabbit. The important thing is to strike a balance between the degree to which you inherently look feminine and how much you emphasize it in your style.

joshikousei wrote: or semi-bosses at workplaces who invite you to drinks at bars. i still have the awkward exchange of emails soliciting advice from friends on how to deal.

oof. what about replying with an upbeat 'sounds great, i told [blank], [blank], and [blank] about it as well. they said it sounds like a great idea for team bonding and they're in.'

gahthelaw wrote:

Pearalegal wrote:

gahthelaw wrote: IMO if you've got it, downplay it.

I completely disagree with this and somewhat think its borderline sexist. You're right, some people will always be jerks in any situation for any reason. But....

Don't change yourself and downplay any part of yourself because of it. Be classy and look good, look damn good.

If someone can't handle a woman with the full package, and chose to judge them on it, thats on them. But if you try to look less attractive in hopes of being taken more seriously, thats on you.

i may have overstated. i definitely agree with looking classy, and would never advocate looking disheveled or frumpy, because that's obviously got its negatives too. i think it's really important to look appropriate, whatever appropriate looks like on a specific person. it might just be a different experience living in different bodies - if i wore the same amount of makeup and dressed the way other some other people can, I'd get a lot of attention I wouldn't be happy about. Some of the girls I work with can look classy and elegant and entirely office appropriate in things that would make me look like Jessica Rabbit. The important thing is to strike a balance between the degree to which you inherently look feminine and how much you emphasize it in your style.

I feel like even toning it down (but in an elegant way) doesn't prevent unwanted attention. I absolutely feel for you, because I have similar problems.

.

gahthelaw wrote: i may have overstated. i definitely agree with looking classy, and would never advocate looking disheveled or frumpy, because that's obviously got its negatives too. i think it's really important to look appropriate, whatever appropriate looks like on a specific person. it might just be a different experience living in different bodies - if i wore the same amount of makeup and dressed the way other some other people can, I'd get a lot of attention I wouldn't be happy about. Some of the girls I work with can look classy and elegant and entirely office appropriate in things that would make me look like Jessica Rabbit. The important thing is to strike a balance between the degree to which you inherently look feminine and how much you emphasize it in your style.

I shouldn't have jumped all over your post like that.

But I sort of think looking appropriate for the office is a very obvious given...and you can look appropriate and absolutely stunning. I think you're using the word "feminine" as a substitute for "voluptuous."

I don't know whats "downplaying" about that though. Thats just getting dressed for work.

I've run into these problems several times as well, but I know it doesn't have anything to do with me and its 100% about the other person. I report anything that needs to be reported and shrug off and make it clear where my line is for anything that doesn't warrant any real action. I don't worry about what I'll wear to work the next day, though.

gahthelaw wrote:

joshikousei wrote: or semi-bosses at workplaces who invite you to drinks at bars. i still have the awkward exchange of emails soliciting advice from friends on how to deal.

oof. what about totally ignoring the e-mail and avoiding eye contact at all costs?

Fixt?

OperaSoprano wrote: I feel like even toning it down (but in an elegant way) doesn't prevent unwanted attention. I absolutely feel for you, because I have similar problems.

OS could wear a brown paper bag and it wouldn't prevent unwanted attention.

the female role models in firms are often not that encouraging. but there are examples out there... i'm sure.

teaadntoast wrote:

gahthelaw wrote:

joshikousei wrote: or semi-bosses at workplaces who invite you to drinks at bars. i still have the awkward exchange of emails soliciting advice from friends on how to deal.

oof. what about totally ignoring the e-mail and avoiding eye contact at all costs?

Fixt?

i avoided him for the rest of the summer, still got a job offer after graduation, declined offer, and totally ignored his email requesting for drinks when i got back to school.

NB: unlike OS or pear or gah, i look like an underage, un-voluptuous school girl, so i think this semi-boss may have had a thing for that. so here's proof that it's really all about the other dude - slimeballs will go after anything.