Thinking about dropping out

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tetrahydrocannabinol
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby tetrahydrocannabinol » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:21 pm

helfer snooterbagon wrote:
How do you make sure there's proper leakage without opening yourself up to the problem of too much airflow?


Too little leakage is rarely a problem.


Are you talking about anal leakage? That's fucking sick man, keep that on a X rated board.

articulably suspect
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:34 pm

---why--- wrote:
NewHere wrote:I haven't read every single response in this long thread, but it looks like M51 has it:

1. There's still OCI. You see those e-mails telling you to sign up? Do it. CLS has a two part "get me a job" deals. EIP (the big one) is gone, but there's still OCI and you'll have a couple mroe interviews there w/ chances at callbacks/offers.


Do fall OCI, and send applications to firms in all markets you're interested in.

Edited to add: also look at the "Job Postings" tab in symplicity. Lots of jobs posted there in the last few days.


Fall OCI has a mix of 23 gov/non-profit/regional/ip firms signed up. Hard to count on this. Also worth mentioning, if you have no connection with Las Vegas, Alaska, or lexington, you aren't getting those jobs. This whole "just get a regional job" is a myth as well. I have sent out 100 applications, am willing to work anywhere, and have no job.


So, you've sent your resume to PD or DAs offices in the surrounding NYC area and elsewhere? Queens PD isn't looking for any Columbia JDs? I can only speak to my experiences, but from where I'm from the DA/PD/County Counsel/AG, etc all have intern/externships through the law schools in the metro area. The problem is most of them don't pay, are you limiting your prospects to those that pay? If so, maybe look into these oppotunities. If you're really desperate to have any job lined up, maybe this will help you in lining up something down the line if OCI doesn't work out. I know that the DA's office I worked at and sectors in the AGs office desperately need law students right now due to budget cuts, furlough, etc. I've heard some on here suggest attending local bar meetings is great for networking. A lot of people get jobs w/out OCI, it won't be impossible, hit the pavement if you have to. I'm sure this isn't what you had in mind when you envisioned your future as a Columbia graduate.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby pleasetryagain » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:39 pm

teaadntoast wrote:Presumably insurance payments have already been taken out of your paycheck.

And it's unlikely you'll need to the doctor or the dentist every single month.

And $470.00 for discretionary spending in a city where there's literally some kind of free event every night isn't too shabby.
dcd wrote:oh cmon.. now youre just grasping at straws ..


Do you, um, live here?


1. no I dont live there and I only spent the first 19 years of my life there..
2. groceries and food didnt qualify as discrentionary spending when I lived there and I cant imagine it does now :wink:
3. free events are crowded and usually not entertaining.. unless of course ou like to see shitty emo bands and shitty comedians over and over again...
4. you still pay copays (and a percent of anything major) when you have insurance
6. How are you defining utilities? After water, electric, and gas in NYC I CANNOT believe you will get away with anything less than $200.
5. I cant believe I am arguing something so incredibly obvious: $400, hell call it $600/month, to live on after your BASIC necessities in the most expensive city in the country is a pittance especially for a grown man trying to make his living/start a life.

to use your expression *facepalm*

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edgarderby
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby edgarderby » Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:14 pm

WAHH honey, we can't afford to go to the Met. Give me a break.

--ImageRemoved--

Anonymous User
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Anonymous User » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:17 pm

FrankReynolds wrote:Most posters in this thread seemed to have pretty much ignored what OP has said. Granted, OP should probably have been a little more clear with what his alternate source of income was earlier in the thread. Disclaimer: I used to play online poker professionally before it was made illegal, and I still have many friends who do so(incomes range from 30k-300k+/year)

#1: LRAP/IBR is of no benefit to OP. First, he doesn't take out much in loans. Second, his income from poker will exclude him from LRAP/IBR. (I am assuming he will never completely quit poker)

#2: I would suggest sticking it out another year and see how you do at Columbia and how the economy changes. If you drop out now, I assume you could probably never go back to Columbia, and I assume if you stay another year you could decide to put off your third year indefinitely if you so wished. While this may seem like "buying stock while its sinking," I look do a simple risk/reward analysis. You just transferred to Columbia, and you have the ability to play poker to cover your expenses.


I can't believe "play poker" is being suggested as a way to earn a living. Setting aside the legality issue...none of you are that good and no one you don't see on TV is actually as good as they say they are.

dk8
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby dk8 » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
FrankReynolds wrote:Most posters in this thread seemed to have pretty much ignored what OP has said. Granted, OP should probably have been a little more clear with what his alternate source of income was earlier in the thread. Disclaimer: I used to play online poker professionally before it was made illegal, and I still have many friends who do so(incomes range from 30k-300k+/year)

#1: LRAP/IBR is of no benefit to OP. First, he doesn't take out much in loans. Second, his income from poker will exclude him from LRAP/IBR. (I am assuming he will never completely quit poker)

#2: I would suggest sticking it out another year and see how you do at Columbia and how the economy changes. If you drop out now, I assume you could probably never go back to Columbia, and I assume if you stay another year you could decide to put off your third year indefinitely if you so wished. While this may seem like "buying stock while its sinking," I look do a simple risk/reward analysis. You just transferred to Columbia, and you have the ability to play poker to cover your expenses.


I can't believe "play poker" is being suggested as a way to earn a living. Setting aside the legality issue...none of you are that good and no one you don't see on TV is actually as good as they say they are.


I agree, I wouldn't suggest it to someone. However, some of the very best (and richest) players in the world do not appear on television.

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:09 am

FrankReynolds wrote:Most posters in this thread seemed to have pretty much ignored what OP has said. Granted, OP should probably have been a little more clear with what his alternate source of income was earlier in the thread. Disclaimer: I used to play online poker professionally before it was made illegal, and I still have many friends who do so(incomes range from 30k-300k+/year)

#1: LRAP/IBR is of no benefit to OP. First, he doesn't take out much in loans. Second, his income from poker will exclude him from LRAP/IBR. (I am assuming he will never completely quit poker)

#2: I would suggest sticking it out another year and see how you do at Columbia and how the economy changes. If you drop out now, I assume you could probably never go back to Columbia, and I assume if you stay another year you could decide to put off your third year indefinitely if you so wished. While this may seem like "buying stock while its sinking," I look do a simple risk/reward analysis. You just transferred to Columbia, and you have the ability to play poker to cover your expenses.

#3 Is it worth the risk to spend 40k or so on tuition and the time studying over the next 9 months to see if the legal market improves--or if you do well at Columbia? Granted, doing well at Columbia may be harder if you are also playing online poker 40 hours a week, so that is a choice you need to make and I am sure you are able to do. If the legal market improves or you do well at Columbia, the reward will certainly be high. As other have mentioned, top 20% at Indiana is not exactly great, and that may be affecting your job prospects. (caveat: even if you do well, the clerkship market for Class of 2011 is going to be brutal)

#4 I personally believe 90% of the motivated and not-socially-awkward students at T6 schools outside the bottom 20% or so will get biglaw jobs. Right now you are probably being grouped in the bottom due to your mediocre grades(for a transfer).

#5 Can you sell yourself? From what you have posted, I am getting the feeling you may be having a hard time selling yourself in interviews. In this economy, it is unfortunately(or fortunately, depending how you see it) the case that firms are putting greater value in students expressing an interest in a particular area of law--and tying that to their background and experiences. They don;t just wanna hire smart kids anymore--they are looking for a bit more.

(feel free to private message me if you'd like. I attend one of CCN.)


None of 4 is true. I think that as a transfer I got more callbacks than most CLS students. There is about a 1% chance someone in the bottom 30% at CLS gets a big firm job.

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DOS
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby DOS » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:02 am

Fellow CLS 2L here. The class of 2011 is in an unusual position where the status of the degree is greater than the economic power that the degree usually confers (at least for those who cannot get biglaw/midlaw in a reasonable timeframe).

So is there a way to leverage a CLS degree if you will never get biglaw? I see three routes.

1) Getting a PI/Government type job and you will be paid in things like autonomy, shorter hours, or in doing something you like rather than money.
2) The degree might be strong enough to substitute for an ersatz MBA. There should be no question about your brains or work ethic with a CLS degree only if you are a good fit. If the degree can get you an interview the rest is up to you. After all, the economy should improve by the time we graduate and if you take a lot of business type courses (which the law school has a ton) this might be a good background for industry. You would not be the first CLS degree holder who has gone this route, although in the past many have put in a few years of big law before they left the legal profession.
3) The long climb. You start at the bottom and you work your way up. I am much more skeptical of this route than most people on this board for a number of reasons, however if you are a good lawyer (although I could not tell you for sure if, for example, I would make a good lawyer since what I did as a 1L seems fairly far removed from how the lawyers I know spend their days), ambitious, and have a CLS degree you might rise very swiftly outside biglaw. After all who cares if your first 5 years as a lawyer are shitty if the other 32 are great and are well paying?


So the question is if someone handed you 140K and said you had until September 2011 to do something could you top the three suggestions above?

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:07 am

DOS wrote:Fellow CLS 2L here. The class of 2011 is in an unusual position where the status of the degree is greater than the economic power that the degree usually confers (at least for those who cannot get biglaw/midlaw in a reasonable timeframe).

So is there a way to leverage a CLS degree if you will never get biglaw? I see three routes.

1) Getting a PI/Government type job and you will be paid in things like autonomy, shorter hours, or in doing something you like rather than money.
2) The degree might be strong enough to substitute for an ersatz MBA. There should be no question about your brains or work ethic with a CLS degree only if you are a good fit. If the degree can get you an interview the rest is up to you. After all, the economy should improve by the time we graduate and if you take a lot of business type courses (which the law school has a ton) this might be a good background for industry. You would not be the first CLS degree holder who has gone this route, although in the past many have put in a few years of big law before they left the legal profession.
3) The long climb. You start at the bottom and you work your way up. I am much more skeptical of this route than most people on this board for a number of reasons, however if you are a good lawyer (although I could not tell you for sure if, for example, I would make a good lawyer since what I did as a 1L seems fairly far removed from how the lawyers I know spend their days), ambitious, and have a CLS degree you might rise very swiftly outside biglaw. After all who cares if your first 5 years as a lawyer are shitty if the other 32 are great and are well paying?


So the question is if someone handed you 140K and said you had until September 2011 to do something could you top the three suggestions above?


This is a good post. Once again, at this point everyone should be thinking about alternatives. My guess is that 30 percent or so of people get jobs through eip. Another 30 get pi and gov and 40 don't get anything. I also sent out some resumes to nj mid and small firms. We shall see.

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M51
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby M51 » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:17 pm

---why--- wrote:
None of 4 is true. I think that as a transfer I got more callbacks than most CLS students. There is about a 1% chance someone in the bottom 30% at CLS gets a big firm job.


Maybe I happen to know all of that 1%, but I'd wager if you did your research and found out which firms were healthy (and thus are not doing a 50%+ slash in summer hiring), bid accordingly, a biglaw scattershot should be much higher than "1%". You know that 1% of the bottom 30% is 1-2 people right? I know enough people in that range w/ enough callbacks that even if the worst possible scenario happens, 1% is a gross exaggeration. No one's saying it's good out there, but 1%? You've been pretty serious until that line.

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:46 pm

I could be wrong, but let me know when those people have offers. I would be happy to be wrong.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:09 pm

M51 wrote:
---why--- wrote:
None of 4 is true. I think that as a transfer I got more callbacks than most CLS students. There is about a 1% chance someone in the bottom 30% at CLS gets a big firm job.


Maybe I happen to know all of that 1%, but I'd wager if you did your research and found out which firms were healthy (and thus are not doing a 50%+ slash in summer hiring), bid accordingly, a biglaw scattershot should be much higher than "1%". You know that 1% of the bottom 30% is 1-2 people right? I know enough people in that range w/ enough callbacks that even if the worst possible scenario happens, 1% is a gross exaggeration. No one's saying it's good out there, but 1%? You've been pretty serious until that line.


Not that it is really relevant for this year, but I remember seeing some chart on above the law that showed something like 75% of CLS grads placed in NLJ250 firms last year (but then again, it all depends on your definition of biglaw, but most pay around $100K+ in the NLJ250). So at least until this year bottom 30% had some shot.

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rayiner
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:14 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
M51 wrote:
---why--- wrote:
None of 4 is true. I think that as a transfer I got more callbacks than most CLS students. There is about a 1% chance someone in the bottom 30% at CLS gets a big firm job.


Maybe I happen to know all of that 1%, but I'd wager if you did your research and found out which firms were healthy (and thus are not doing a 50%+ slash in summer hiring), bid accordingly, a biglaw scattershot should be much higher than "1%". You know that 1% of the bottom 30% is 1-2 people right? I know enough people in that range w/ enough callbacks that even if the worst possible scenario happens, 1% is a gross exaggeration. No one's saying it's good out there, but 1%? You've been pretty serious until that line.


Not that it is really relevant for this year, but I remember seeing some chart on above the law that showed something like 75% of CLS grads placed in NLJ250 firms last year (but then again, it all depends on your definition of biglaw, but most pay around $100K+ in the NLJ250). So at least until this year bottom 30% had some shot.


http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

80% of Columbia's class of 2007 summered at a vault 100 firm. 73% in a vault 50 firm. Oh what a difference a couple of years makes.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby XxSpyKEx » Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:53 pm

rayiner wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
M51 wrote:
---why--- wrote:
None of 4 is true. I think that as a transfer I got more callbacks than most CLS students. There is about a 1% chance someone in the bottom 30% at CLS gets a big firm job.


Maybe I happen to know all of that 1%, but I'd wager if you did your research and found out which firms were healthy (and thus are not doing a 50%+ slash in summer hiring), bid accordingly, a biglaw scattershot should be much higher than "1%". You know that 1% of the bottom 30% is 1-2 people right? I know enough people in that range w/ enough callbacks that even if the worst possible scenario happens, 1% is a gross exaggeration. No one's saying it's good out there, but 1%? You've been pretty serious until that line.


Not that it is really relevant for this year, but I remember seeing some chart on above the law that showed something like 75% of CLS grads placed in NLJ250 firms last year (but then again, it all depends on your definition of biglaw, but most pay around $100K+ in the NLJ250). So at least until this year bottom 30% had some shot.


http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

80% of Columbia's class of 2007 summered at a vault 100 firm. 73% in a vault 50 firm. Oh what a difference a couple of years makes.


How did NU kick Michigan & Virginia's asses (pretty badly too!), yet remain lower ranked in USNews? Higher clerkship placement?

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rayiner
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby rayiner » Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:08 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
rayiner wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
M51 wrote:
Maybe I happen to know all of that 1%, but I'd wager if you did your research and found out which firms were healthy (and thus are not doing a 50%+ slash in summer hiring), bid accordingly, a biglaw scattershot should be much higher than "1%". You know that 1% of the bottom 30% is 1-2 people right? I know enough people in that range w/ enough callbacks that even if the worst possible scenario happens, 1% is a gross exaggeration. No one's saying it's good out there, but 1%? You've been pretty serious until that line.


Not that it is really relevant for this year, but I remember seeing some chart on above the law that showed something like 75% of CLS grads placed in NLJ250 firms last year (but then again, it all depends on your definition of biglaw, but most pay around $100K+ in the NLJ250). So at least until this year bottom 30% had some shot.


http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

80% of Columbia's class of 2007 summered at a vault 100 firm. 73% in a vault 50 firm. Oh what a difference a couple of years makes.


How did NU kick Michigan & Virginia's asses (pretty badly too!), yet remain lower ranked in USNews? Higher clerkship placement?


Location, I'd imagine. Chicago has a lot of Vault 50 firm offices. UVA and Michigan seem to have more diverse placement into markets where big firms may pay top dollar but aren't Vault 50/100.

FrankReynolds
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby FrankReynolds » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:06 pm

getting off topic but...

Setting aside the legality issue...none of you are that good and no one you don't see on TV is actually as good as they say they are.


The most profitable poker pros are not huge TV names, because they make their money in cash games. TV poker is concentrated on poker tournaments, which tend to attract the most risk-loving bunch around--many of these guys often go flat broke; even names like Hellmuth, Lederer, etc., are often staked by cash game players who you have never heard of.

While I know a great deal of people who exaggerate their poker profits, there are a LOT of people who make 100-200k a year playing mostly online poker(as well as a few who make much more...I have friends who have won/lost ~100k in a single week!). So while it is not like the movie Rounders, it is an actual alternative career path. And if you are really worried about legality, move somewhere like Buenos Aires with low taxes, few laws, and a very low cost of living.

In re: advice using law degree as an MBA. I like this advice, but my guess is that those students at Columbia an other top schools who have business backgrounds are not the same students struggling to get jobs. I have below average grades at CCN, but I think my business background went a long way in the interview process. Most people who are really struggling had came straight from undergrad and are confused about what they want to do. For those struggling from top schools that may just have reallllllly bad grades, but some work experience, I would definitely suggest looking into banking and consulting, which may be better in 2 years than the 3L market. [I fully understand banking has been hit VERY hard...but it also has a history of bouncing back, and bankers are far more willing to overlook the fact you didn't have a 2L SA job. Also, banks hire analysts for 2-3 years, so there is a constant need for new gruntworkers. Sure, you may feel like it is beneath you to start as an analyst instead of as an associate, but with a JD under your belt you can transition from analyst ->associate MUCH easier than your peers.]

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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:45 am

I don't know about you guys, but I think we'll all be fine. I have HOPE. Just like Obama says. he'll bail me out if things get rough.

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rayiner
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:47 am

Anonymous User wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I think we'll all be fine. I have HOPE. Just like Obama says. he'll bail me out if things get rough.


Overcooked joke is overcooked.

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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:53 am

I agree, I appologize. I'm just bored at work today.

I do have something to add though to the post. I just want to say, in combination with everything else about whether to stay in law or transition into other fields...don't be mistaken that things are 'great' outside of the legal market. Other industries have the same problems, and if you are trying to break into them, you'll also have to fight off people with several years of work experience who also have been fired. Just keep that in mind before you jump ship OP.

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I think we'll all be fine. I have HOPE. Just like Obama says. he'll bail me out if things get rough.


Overcooked joke is overcooked.

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rayiner
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:54 am

Anonymous User wrote:I agree, I appologize. I'm just bored at work today.

I do have something to add though to the post. I just want to say, in combination with everything else about whether to stay in law or transition into other fields...don't be mistaken that things are 'great' outside of the legal market. Other industries have the same problems, and if you are trying to break into them, you'll also have to fight off people with several years of work experience who also have been fired. Just keep that in mind before you jump ship OP.

rayiner wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I don't know about you guys, but I think we'll all be fine. I have HOPE. Just like Obama says. he'll bail me out if things get rough.


Overcooked joke is overcooked.


No need to apologize. Just be funnier next time. :-P

ScaredWorkedBored
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ScaredWorkedBored » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:06 pm

FrankReynolds wrote:getting off topic but...

Setting aside the legality issue...none of you are that good and no one you don't see on TV is actually as good as they say they are.


The most profitable poker pros are not huge TV names, because they make their money in cash games. TV poker is concentrated on poker tournaments, which tend to attract the most risk-loving bunch around--many of these guys often go flat broke; even names like Hellmuth, Lederer, etc., are often staked by cash game players who you have never heard of.

While I know a great deal of people who exaggerate their poker profits, there are a LOT of people who make 100-200k a year playing mostly online poker(as well as a few who make much more...I have friends who have won/lost ~100k in a single week!). So while it is not like the movie Rounders, it is an actual alternative career path. And if you are really worried about legality, move somewhere like Buenos Aires with low taxes, few laws, and a very low cost of living.


It's on a necro of the thread, but as a self-professed poker wiz, you are presumably aware of the implied post-rake player edge on the game, and existing bankroll, that such performance entails. See links on mathematical win expectations (in a cheating context, but relevant on all claims of spectacularly good play):

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/ne ... ns-208114/

--LinkRemoved--

Someone who "won and lost $100K in a week" is either an extremely loose gambler that is not remotely reliable, or someone who has an existing seven-figure liquid net worth.

FrankReynolds
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby FrankReynolds » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:43 pm

tsoprano(formerly bobcards). If you are on 2+2 you probably know him.

I don;t have time to read those sites, but high limit headsup and short-limited games can lead to some pretty insane swings.

However, I agree you should have that bankroll for the stakes that would allow a 100K loss, but you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that you can play with a small bankroll, win a lot, lose it all, get staked, win a lot.... rinse repeat.

You sound a bit too logical/boring compared to 99% of poker players that play high limits.

Anonymous User
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:17 pm

---why--- :

You are so right. Sad thing is reading everyone else's responses. Blindly optimistic. I worked for a major law firm but quit to go to law school. When I left, work was dead. I still communicate with coworkers and they say it's sporadic right now.

People are going to believe what they want to believe. You are in an excellent position and can't get a job. However, imagine all those in non-T14 who are taking out $150k in loans to pursue the legal dream.... The legal bubble is bursting.

Law school and the former housing market are very similar. People are getting in over their heads because "the value will always go up." Conventional wisdom proved to be wrong... and in some cases devastating.

The value of a law degree will always go up - ha.

Even with my extensive and impressive legal experience (worked on may high profile cases with high profile clients), extensive technical education from prestigious undergrad and grad schools, and in top law school, I know it will be tough for me when I graduate. But really, I have no other option at this point in my life and neither do you.

Those of you who do have options, consider your finances and long term goals over pipe-dreams.

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rayiner
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Even with my extensive and impressive legal experience (worked on may high profile cases with high profile clients), extensive technical education from prestigious undergrad and grad schools, and in top law school, I know it will be tough for me when I graduate. But really, I have no other option at this point in my life and neither do you.

Those of you who do have options, consider your finances and long term goals over pipe-dreams.


When I read this, I'm picturing PhD from MIT in physics. If otherwise, I'm neither impressed nor prestige-awed!

Anonymous User
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:55 pm

Didn't finish the PhD - very good (interesting) reason for not finishing, so walked away with a masters. Degrees in 2 engineering subjects and math.




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