Thinking about dropping out

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---why---
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Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 1:52 pm

Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:19 pm

As some of you know, I'm a transfer student at Columbia. I was top 20% at Indiana. I ended up with two callbacks. One rejection so far and the other firm didn't sound too encouraging. Since you all will ask, I consider myself an above average/very good interviewer. I will apply for government jobs, but realize that they are difficult to get and don't pay that well. I can make 40k a year doing other things (besides gov. work) and save a bunch of money. I will probably also attend the undergraduate job fair and see what they have to offer. I am open to doing pretty much anything. For what its worth, I don't feel like I deserve anything. I am a little bit down, but not "giving up." I simply wonder if this is the best decision. I also don't regret transferring. I will answer questions as well.

USAIRS
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby USAIRS » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:31 pm

---why--- wrote:As some of you know, I'm a transfer student at Columbia. I was top 20% at Indiana. I ended up with two callbacks. One rejection so far and the other firm didn't sound too encouraging. Since you all will ask, I consider myself an above average/very good interviewer. I will apply for government jobs, but realize that they are difficult to get and don't pay that well. I can make 40k a year doing other things (besides gov. work) and save a bunch of money. I will probably also attend the undergraduate job fair and see what they have to offer. I am open to doing pretty much anything. For what its worth, I don't feel like I deserve anything. I am a little bit down, but not "giving up." I simply wonder if this is the best decision. I also don't regret transferring. I will answer questions as well.


Given that this is now one day after the deadline for applying to DOJ I've bumped maybe 4 times in the last two weeks, I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you the world isn't over. When you are ready to take the big-law blinders off. Feel free to PM me.

Anonymous User
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:32 pm

Dude,

you made it into Columbia. Many would kill to go to that school.

Do NOT give up. The economy is going to get better. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.

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pleasetryagain
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby pleasetryagain » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:33 pm

USAIRS wrote:
---why--- wrote:As some of you know, I'm a transfer student at Columbia. I was top 20% at Indiana. I ended up with two callbacks. One rejection so far and the other firm didn't sound too encouraging. Since you all will ask, I consider myself an above average/very good interviewer. I will apply for government jobs, but realize that they are difficult to get and don't pay that well. I can make 40k a year doing other things (besides gov. work) and save a bunch of money. I will probably also attend the undergraduate job fair and see what they have to offer. I am open to doing pretty much anything. For what its worth, I don't feel like I deserve anything. I am a little bit down, but not "giving up." I simply wonder if this is the best decision. I also don't regret transferring. I will answer questions as well.


Given that this is now one day after the deadline for applying to DOJ I've bumped maybe 4 times in the last two weeks, I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you the world isn't over. When you are ready to take the big-law blinders off. Feel free to PM me.


thats good, douche, because he was asking you specifically...

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greyarea
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby greyarea » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:35 pm

If your hell bent on being a lawyer, I would stick it out. I can't imagine that a JD from Columbia can't open doors down the road and rectify your bleak employment and debt situation. If you can find something, anything, that will keep you working after LS, you'll probably be able to get back into the BigLaw game with your degree if you so desired. If you were at a T14, I would say dropping out makes more sense. But Columbia? What has the world come to....

USAIRS
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby USAIRS » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:38 pm

DCD wrote:
USAIRS wrote:
---why--- wrote:As some of you know, I'm a transfer student at Columbia. I was top 20% at Indiana. I ended up with two callbacks. One rejection so far and the other firm didn't sound too encouraging. Since you all will ask, I consider myself an above average/very good interviewer. I will apply for government jobs, but realize that they are difficult to get and don't pay that well. I can make 40k a year doing other things (besides gov. work) and save a bunch of money. I will probably also attend the undergraduate job fair and see what they have to offer. I am open to doing pretty much anything. For what its worth, I don't feel like I deserve anything. I am a little bit down, but not "giving up." I simply wonder if this is the best decision. I also don't regret transferring. I will answer questions as well.


Given that this is now one day after the deadline for applying to DOJ I've bumped maybe 4 times in the last two weeks, I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you the world isn't over. When you are ready to take the big-law blinders off. Feel free to PM me.


thats good, douche, because he was asking you specifically...


Is the D-word making a comeback? Perhaps you don't really know me, but I'm being serious. When OP is ready to think about government, I'm in the know and can help. He hasn't asked me specifically, but I'm letting him know he can ask me.

If you want to be an internet tough guy, take it somewhere else.

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missvik218
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby missvik218 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:41 pm

USAIRS wrote:
DCD wrote:
USAIRS wrote:
---why--- wrote:As some of you know, I'm a transfer student at Columbia. I was top 20% at Indiana. I ended up with two callbacks. One rejection so far and the other firm didn't sound too encouraging. Since you all will ask, I consider myself an above average/very good interviewer. I will apply for government jobs, but realize that they are difficult to get and don't pay that well. I can make 40k a year doing other things (besides gov. work) and save a bunch of money. I will probably also attend the undergraduate job fair and see what they have to offer. I am open to doing pretty much anything. For what its worth, I don't feel like I deserve anything. I am a little bit down, but not "giving up." I simply wonder if this is the best decision. I also don't regret transferring. I will answer questions as well.


Given that this is now one day after the deadline for applying to DOJ I've bumped maybe 4 times in the last two weeks, I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to convince you the world isn't over. When you are ready to take the big-law blinders off. Feel free to PM me.


thats good, douche, because he was asking you specifically...


Is the D-word making a comeback? Perhaps you don't really know me, but I'm being serious. When OP is ready to think about government, I'm in the know and can help. He hasn't asked me specifically, but I'm letting him know he can ask me.

If you want to be an internet tough guy, take it somewhere else.

Haha, I agree with your post and think it was kind of you ... but just so you know, the D-word has in fact made a full-blown come back.

Bankhead
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Bankhead » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:42 pm

for a number of reasons, this thread is extremely depressing to me...

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pleasetryagain
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby pleasetryagain » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:46 pm

missvik218 wrote:Haha, I agree with your post and think it was kind of you ... but just so you know, the D-word has in fact made a full-blown come back.


I didnt know it went away..

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missvik218
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby missvik218 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:51 pm

DCD wrote:
missvik218 wrote:Haha, I agree with your post and think it was kind of you ... but just so you know, the D-word has in fact made a full-blown come back.


I didnt know it went away..

Yeah, I think it did kinda for a while ... or at least in my world I can't really remember anyone being called a "douche" or "douche bag" for quite awhile, it was always "jerk" or "loser." I like it though, I’m glad it’s back. :wink:

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:53 pm

I absolutely feel for you, and Indiana to Columbia is a huge change, rankings aside. Do you like NYC? Do you like the atmosphere at CLS? I The money you've spent already is a sunk cost, and you will get a job even if you miss biglaw. You can still apply for clerkships, right? Think about the substance of your education, and the school itself. You should be having a love affair with Columbia right now, and if you aren't, something is wrong.

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:57 pm

For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:58 pm

That JD from Columbia will continue to increase in value long after this recession is a thing of the past. As OS observed, the money you've spent is now a sunk cost, but you stand to make it back and then some if you plow through the current downturn.

I suppose the best question to ask yourself is whether you'll be happy working as a lawyer, even if it's in a smaller house or living in a less-than-metropolitan area. Will the day to day business of practicing make it worthwhile, even if the paycheck is smaller?
Last edited by teaadntoast on Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

USAIRS
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby USAIRS » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:58 pm

---why--- wrote:For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.


Sounds like you know all you need to know. Best of luck to you!

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:01 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:I absolutely feel for you, and Indiana to Columbia is a huge change, rankings aside. Do you like NYC? Do you like the atmosphere at CLS? I The money you've spent already is a sunk cost, and you will get a job even if you miss biglaw. You can still apply for clerkships, right? Think about the substance of your education, and the school itself. You should be having a love affair with Columbia right now, and if you aren't, something is wrong.


I love New York. My professors seem fine and the people are nice. However, I strongly disagree with the "you will get a job somewhere" notion - this just will not be true for many people. As I just said, there aren't many "missing biglaw" alternatives.

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tetrahydrocannabinol
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby tetrahydrocannabinol » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:01 pm

Dude there's people around top 25% that got 0 callbacks at MVP. Getting even 1 callback with top 20% at IU is pretty good, 2 callbacks is phenomenal. Keep in mind, yes you did transfer to an awesome school, but you only have grades from your old school and they weren't exactly stellar. Most firms probably look at you the same as they would have if you attended your old school, but the advantage comes in that you got to interview with firms that you originally had no chance of interviewing with at your old school, giving you that additional 20 minutes to sell yourself. Overall it sounds like you didn't do too bad all things considered.

Oh, almost forgot, drop out! Chances are you will end up with no biglaw job and pay $140K for the next 2 years with no hopes of paying that debt off. I guess the alternative is to do stellar at Columbia the next year, get onto a journal, and then clerk for a year before going into biglaw (probably the only other way you will get in since biglaw firms don't really hire 3Ls). Clerking will be an easier option since you are at Columbia (particularly if you make law review) but still pretty fucking cutthroat competitive because just about everyone and their mom is trying to do that from c/o 2011 since so many people got screwed.

Also, I agree with you that it is biglaw or bust because gvt doesn't pay shit and unless you are really into that stuff 10 years is a long time to sit there to try and get LRAP to work out for you.

EDIT- for emphasis.
Last edited by tetrahydrocannabinol on Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:02 pm

USAIRS wrote:
---why--- wrote:For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.


Sounds like you know all you need to know. Best of luck to you!


If I (or other people) don't know something, please tell me. I'm not acting like I know everything, simply telling people how I feel based on what I do know.

Oblomov
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby Oblomov » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:08 pm

If you have something lined up, dropping out isn't something to just be laughed off. But if you going to spend the next year unemployed and then finally find a job that you don't really like that pays 40k, I'd think you better off just seeing what happens.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:14 pm

Oblomov wrote:If you have something lined up, dropping out isn't something to just be laughed off. But if you going to spend the next year unemployed and then finally find a job that you don't really like that pays 40k, I'd think you better off just seeing what happens.


+1

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:18 pm

---why--- wrote:For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.


If it is biglaw or bust, you've answered your own question. I think you should talk to reasonable man about smaller firms, though. It should also be noted that right now =/= forever, with the exception of biglaw.

Before people freak out, my roommate used to work at a very well known legal nonprofit here in the city. She said they routinely hire from NYU down to Brooklyn, and they even took someone from CUNY. I'm sure Harvard students take precedence, but there really aren't enough of them to take every single job in existence.

EDIT: You are at CLS. Do you really feel that there are not enough legal jobs for all your classmates? I'm not speaking of biglaw here, but of some minimally interesting position in which a JD is required. I mean, Columbia is not known for dumping a bunch of unemployed people out into Morningside Heights. If things have changed to the point that you will never find such a job as a CLS grad, we should all kill ourselves now, lol.

Several people I admire very much are 1Ls at CLS now. (Columbians are lovely people, FTR. They were so welcoming when I went drinking up there.) They're worried, but they're not on the verge of dropping out.

I hope you stay, but if biglaw is truly what you wanted, I can understand why you made this thread. What you've said is certainly true at this very moment (absent the existence of boutiques, and firms like reasonable man's.)

---why---
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:23 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
---why--- wrote:For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.


If it is biglaw or bust, you've answered your own question. I think you should talk to reasonable man about smaller firms, though. It should also be noted that right now =/= forever, with the exception of biglaw.

Before people freak out, my roommate used to work at a very well known legal nonprofit here in the city. She said they routinely hire from NYU down to Brooklyn, and they even took someone from CUNY. I'm sure Harvard students take precedence, but there really aren't enough of them to take every single job in existence.

EDIT: You are at CLS. Do you really feel that there are not enough legal jobs for all your classmates? I'm not speaking of biglaw here, but of some minimally interesting position in which a JD is required. I mean, Columbia is not known for dumping a bunch of unemployed people out into Morningside Heights. If things have changed to the point that you will never find such a job as a CLS grad, we should all kill ourselves now, lol.

Several people I admire very much are 1Ls at CLS now. (Columbians are lovely people, FTR. They were so welcoming when I went drinking up there.) They're worried, but they're not on the verge of dropping out.

I hope you stay, but if biglaw is truly what you wanted, I can understand why you made this thread. What you've said is certainly true at this very moment (absent the existence of boutiques, and firms like reasonable man's.)


Where do I find these smaller firms? from my understanding, most small firms dont have summer classes. I asked the OCS about this and they didn't have any ideas.

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teaadntoast
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:26 pm

---why--- wrote: Where do I find these smaller firms? from my understanding, most small firms dont have summer classes. I asked the OCS about this and they didn't have any ideas.


Some do, some don't.

Boutiques and the like generally don't participate in OCI - too expensive. Applicants and new grads usually make their own introductions or are referred.

This is just me spitting out ideas, but you might start trolling the alumni network for people who are presently in mid- or small-sized firms and going from there.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:28 pm

---why--- wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
---why--- wrote:For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.


If it is biglaw or bust, you've answered your own question. I think you should talk to reasonable man about smaller firms, though. It should also be noted that right now =/= forever, with the exception of biglaw.

Before people freak out, my roommate used to work at a very well known legal nonprofit here in the city. She said they routinely hire from NYU down to Brooklyn, and they even took someone from CUNY. I'm sure Harvard students take precedence, but there really aren't enough of them to take every single job in existence.

EDIT: You are at CLS. Do you really feel that there are not enough legal jobs for all your classmates? I'm not speaking of biglaw here, but of some minimally interesting position in which a JD is required. I mean, Columbia is not known for dumping a bunch of unemployed people out into Morningside Heights. If things have changed to the point that you will never find such a job as a CLS grad, we should all kill ourselves now, lol.

Several people I admire very much are 1Ls at CLS now. (Columbians are lovely people, FTR. They were so welcoming when I went drinking up there.) They're worried, but they're not on the verge of dropping out.

I hope you stay, but if biglaw is truly what you wanted, I can understand why you made this thread. What you've said is certainly true at this very moment (absent the existence of boutiques, and firms like reasonable man's.)


Where do I find these smaller firms? from my understanding, most small firms dont have summer classes. I asked the OCS about this and they didn't have any ideas.


Yeah, my understanding is that they don't do OCI, because they won't hire more than one or two people at a time. They also may not hire you until you've passed the bar. I would seriously PM reasonable man, though. He's been an amazing source of advice and assistance to me, and he managed it all as a graduate of a real TTT. He gave me hope. If you want to stay at CLS, you'll likely have many more options than he did, once you've graduated.

Obviously I'm not an expert, but I did some research on public interest firms, and this seems to be the way some of them operate.

Beat me to it.

USAIRS
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby USAIRS » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:32 pm

---why--- wrote:
USAIRS wrote:
---why--- wrote:For what its worth, I'm not sure that it is so easy to go from government to biglaw. I also tend to think that the old model will never come back. Things will get better, but the structure was just silly.

Also, this whole idea that "once you get the biglaw blinders off, things will be better" idea is just wrong. Frankly, it is biglaw or bust. There isn't this big middle ground of options that some people seem to think. I went to career services today and asked every possible question about alternatives to government and biglaw. There really isn't anything out there. I have nothing against government work (I work for legal aid now), but I don't want to do that forever.

One last point. For those whose backup plan is legal aid, the two people I work with both went to Harvard and one worked for S&C.


Sounds like you know all you need to know. Best of luck to you!


If I (or other people) don't know something, please tell me. I'm not acting like I know everything, simply telling people how I feel based on what I do know.


I can only show you the water, and I'm not going to try to make you drink. I don't really post that much in these forums, mostly because they are full of people who "know" so much that it generally feels like an exercise in futility to provide useful guidance. You first need to recognize that you don't know that much and swallow your pride, and it is quite surprising that your OCI experience hasn't taught you that many of your assumptions were wrong already. I completely understand, though, as someone who has gone through it a couple of times, there is a lot of BS "everyone does fine" that goes around these top schools and when it doesn't go fine it is hard to reconcile with pretty much everything you had based the last year on.

Look, I'm not going to post here simply because I don't want to engage in argument with posters like cannibushead or others who have similar presumptions that you have. For frame of reference, I graduated from the University of Chicago and now work in a US Attorney's Office, and have been out of school 5 years. I am beyond any need to deal with people calling me "douche" on the internet or elsewhere. If you want to have a civil and informative chat about government work, PM me. I'll refrain from posting in this thread further.

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thesealocust
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Re: Thinking about dropping out

Postby thesealocust » Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:32 pm

Do you want to be a lawyer? If so, a CLS degree will let you get an excellent job as a lawyer and enjoy a rich, long career.

Did you just want to get a well paying job ASAP with no particular affinity for the law? You've had a year, you should know now whether the law interests you. If it doesn't, light up a cigarette, take a couple of shots, and drop CLS like it's hot. Unlike a lot of other posters, I have no bias against people who went to law school for biglaw. Until the bubble burst, it made great sense even for people with just a passing interest in the law. There's no shame in it. If you don't want to hustle for a legal job, cut your losses and go hustle somewhere else.

HTH




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