Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

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ggocat
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby ggocat » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:27 pm

I'm a 3L at a lower ranked school, so I'll chime in on the "ignorance" argument. Students at my school were perfectly knowledgeable about law firm hiring practices. If they didnt know before school started, or if they didn't make friends with some 2Ls during the first two months, then career services explained the general ins and outs of legal hiring in early November of the 1L year (pursuant to NALP guidelines).

Ignorance is not the reason you don't see tier 3/4 students complaining about striking out at OCI. The "expectations" reasoning seems much more plausible (as suggested by another poster and the WSJ blog post). All the firms provide grade cutoffs, so most students are very knowledgeable about what grades they have to get to even have a shot at an interview, let alone an offer.

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tetrahydrocannabinol
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby tetrahydrocannabinol » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:36 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
spanktheduck wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:
tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:
TTTers are typically less well read. Many don't even understand or know about the biglaw hiring model (i.e. 2L SA is needed to get an offer for graduation, and that it is very typically of people to have jobs prior to taking the bar). They also don't understand the risk they are undergoing by attending law school and paying a shitton of money because loans are really easy to get and much harder to pay off. It is just entirely too easy at the age of 21 or 22 to pick and decide to go to a law school with unrealistic knowledge of how things are after school (with the wake up call coming when loan repayment starts-- just see jdunderground). It is understandable though in that most education is an investment towards your future and not just a huge gamble and risk. E.g. no one would seriously argue that a person should not attend non-top UG college and should simply rock their high school diploma because going to college is just too much of a risk. That's because even going to a shittier UG will equal a much better quality of life and employment prospects for the rest of your life. The same is not true of law school, which is something I don't think a lot of people understand.


Are you a dick head IRL? Just wondering..


He has some point. Students at nonT14 are probably less knowledgealbe about biglaw hiring model. For example, I worked with someone over the summer who went to a T50 school. He wasn't even aware of what 2Ls did their second summer, let alone biglaw hiring model. This is probably a simple fact that most students at non T14 schools don't do SA programs and thus don't talk about it and also that few firms do OCI at the school (and if they do only hire the top of the class). This means (1) that many students don't know about the hiring model and thus don't care about not applying and (2), if they do know, don't really care that they missed it because it was never a realistic opportunity anyways (students at a T14 don't think a V100 firm is a realistic possiblity and thus are not really disappointed when it does not happen). Meanwhile a student at the T14 has been told his entire 1L year about working for a firm his second summer and as a result is very knowledgable about it. Additionally, for most students at T14, biglaw probably seemed as a likely possibilty, so when it doesn't happen they are devistated. For example: I went a state school. I am sure that the lesser amount of recruiting by investment banks over the past year had little impact on the students at my school. Very few, if any, ever worked at those places, so the fact that they hired even less, or no students, last hiring cycle meant little. The students had no expectations of working there so they had no expectations to be crushed, On the other hand, students at ivy leagues probably felt a lot worse about it because they viewed working there as a likely outcome.


Condescending and not true. Less likely to get a biglaw job =/= ignorant of how biglaw hiring works. I'm planning to do public interest work, am manifestly not at a T14, and I get the system as well as any other new 1L. It's ridiculous to claim that students at non T14 schools don't do the research, don't understand, or don't know what they are getting into. Of course TLSers are better informed than average law students, but I can assure you that my own classmates (on and off TLS) know the score. Those hoping for an SA job are quite nervous, but so are our friends uptown and downtown. The freakout is general at this point. It's gotten so bad that my friends at HYS are losing their composure. Ridiculous, but true all the same.

I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.

RE: Reasonable Man: He's been quite forthcoming about his legal education, and I know him to be successful, and working at a midlaw firm he very much enjoys. Plus he has time for a life, and he cares enough to come back here and advise current students. He's probably better read than most.


I didn't read this entire post, but Fordham isn't exactly the definition of a third tier toilet (meaning none of this applies to you).

EDIT- Actually a lot of my comments and what was said really was something that was aimed at the general body of people at actual third tier schools or worse (and probably true of some 2nd tier schools). I would definitely expect people at top 40+ schools to know the reality of the biglaw model and hiring because there are enough grads from those schools that go into biglaw (unlike a T3 where maybe the top 2% make it, in a good economy, and if they are lucky).
Last edited by tetrahydrocannabinol on Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:38 pm

tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:I didn't read this entire post, but Fordham isn't exactly the definition of a third tier toilet (meaning none of this applies to you).


I was going to make a joke about Fordham only being a second tier toilet, but I'll abstain for OS's benefit.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:55 pm

Once more Mr. tetrahydrocannabinol, I'd like to know your lot in life? As you saw fit to take a shot at me and label me a TTT-Grad, I'd like to know from where you draw your advanced base of knowledge?

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby ---why--- » Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:12 pm

Why is this even a debate? Of course people at higher ranked schools know more about big law. I think the reasons are obvious. I transfered from Indiana. While some people understood the model, most of the students had no idea. At Columbia, 90% of the students do EIP.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:39 pm

schnecke wrote:
mr.undroppable wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:I think my fellow T30 students will handle this crisis with grace and equanimity, because we knew even during boom times that there were no guarantees. We never believed anything was going to be handed to us. Yeah, it will definitely suck, but we'll learn to make do until hiring picks up again. People may have to adjust their (biglaw) expectations, and find other legal work. We won't be alone, though. Neither will we be uninformed.


Are you a real person? Do you really think the miserable bastards at Fordham who got rejected from every single T14, but thought they still had a chance at biglaw by paying full price at Fordham because it has a good reputation in New York, are handling things well right now? Better question, do you think 3Ls with no jobs are going to confide in 1Ls with the kind of attitude you have? There are people on law reviews in the T14 who got no offered and will face unemployment when they graduate. While everything will be alright in the sense that people will not be starving to death many many people have had their professional goals completely flipped upside down through no fault of their own.

Sulking definitely does not help, neither does self pity, but self righteous 1Ls telling people who have no way to pay off their loans right now not to worry is beyond ridiculous. How would you feel if all of a sudden non-profits, or whatever it is that you want to do, started shutting down and only hired law review types from T14 and you were forced to do some shit job you had never planned on?

Equanimity? Seriously?


this.

I also like how she says she and her "fellow T30 students" (such an arbitrary distinction, btw) knew "even during boom times that there were no guarantees." Like someone said above, she's been in law school for 2 weeks. Please.

We never believed anything was going to be handed to us.


Also a great line. Are you implying that the people who, in many cases, worked harder than you for better grades and test scores DO expect things to be handed to them?


Oh, I'm not telling anyone not to worry, nor am I claiming that Fordham students aren't worried. Of course they're worried! CCN students are worried too, and several have told me so explicitly. There is a difference between worrying that one won't get a job, and being pissed off about the situation because one feels entitled to be given one. I have not observed the latter behavior here, but then I've never seen my friends at T14s behaving in an entitled manner, either. I haven't spoken with every law student in the country, nor even every student at my own school, but I've seen enough to share these general observations. (Yes, Nesker, I have spoken with 20+ people over the past year, though I can hardly claim that all are my friends.) Are Fordham students disappointed and terrified? Of course. I would be disappointed and terrified if I wanted biglaw, and I'm terrified enough that there will be no nonprofit or public interest firm jobs available. Are they pissed off because they were expecting biglaw and now might have to do without? No. As such, they will likely have an easier time adjusting than will students who not only wanted, but expected biglaw. I hope this clarifies my earlier post. Incidentally, the only place I have ever observed an entitlement mentality is on the internet.

No one is guaranteed a biglaw job in this economy, and I think T14 students must have enough sense to realize this.

BTW, the article linked to this thread says some pretty fascinating things. I hadn't read it, but I certainly would have suspected it. It's a basic tenet of psychology: people tend to value things more if they are harder to come by. Quite simply, it means more for a T30 student to get a biglaw job, precisely because that student could not (or should not) have expected it. Getting what one reasonably foresees (IE, CCN--->Biglaw) is certainly pleasant and credited, but it's not quite the same. I don't believe that T14 students will work less hard than those coming from lower ranked schools, but I do think they won't be as personally overjoyed with an outcome they regarded as likely to happen in the first place. It's similar to the difference in excitement between an auto admit and an eleventh hour waitlist admit at any given school.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:50 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:I didn't read this entire post, but Fordham isn't exactly the definition of a third tier toilet (meaning none of this applies to you).


I was going to make a joke about Fordham only being a second tier toilet, but I'll abstain for OS's benefit.


:lol:

Seriously, though, I said nothing about TTTs. I do know several people attending (Suffolk and NYLS, to be specific), but I don't know enough about what their classmates think of the market to generalize. The post to which I responded said "students at non T14s," and presumably, this also means Vandy students, Texas students, and UCLA students, as well as the T30 and on down. It would be idiotic to imply that students at a school like Vandy, which places as well as GULC, are ignorant of the legal hiring model. tetrahydrocannabinol realized this, and clarified.

I still absolutely maintain that many Fordham students hope for biglaw, but no one can or should expect it, so the disappointment won't be as crushing as it might be for someone at a higher ranked school who strikes out at OCI.

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tetrahydrocannabinol
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby tetrahydrocannabinol » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:00 pm

reasonable_man wrote:Once more Mr. tetrahydrocannabinol,


LOL

reasonable_man wrote:I'd like to know your lot in life?

??
I dunno, to smoke blunts rolled with "top" of the line cannabis and to fuck as many "top" of the line bitches as I can before I am officially old?

reasonable_man wrote:As you saw fit to take a shot at me and label me a TTT-Grad, I'd like to know from where you draw your advanced base of knowledge?


You seemed to be angered by my previous post (where I called TTT students poorly read), which is why I figured you were probably a TTT grad. Makes perfect sense if you ask me.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby reasonable_man » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:28 pm

tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:Once more Mr. tetrahydrocannabinol,


LOL

reasonable_man wrote:I'd like to know your lot in life?

??
I dunno, to smoke blunts rolled with "top" of the line cannabis and to fuck as many "top" of the line bitches as I can before I am officially old?

reasonable_man wrote:As you saw fit to take a shot at me and label me a TTT-Grad, I'd like to know from where you draw your advanced base of knowledge?


You seemed to be angered by my previous post (where I called TTT students poorly read), which is why I figured you were probably a TTT grad. Makes perfect sense if you ask me.


I can tell that you're going to be a real asset to the forums.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:40 pm

reasonable_man wrote:I can tell that you're going to be a real asset to the forums.


There's always room on this forum for somebody to call out OS when she gets out of line with her optimism ;)

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:58 pm

thesealocust wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I can tell that you're going to be a real asset to the forums.


There's always room on this forum for somebody to call out OS when she gets out of line with her optimism ;)


Hey, things out there suck. Why not find the silver lining, if it exists?

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby thesealocust » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:01 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I can tell that you're going to be a real asset to the forums.


There's always room on this forum for somebody to call out OS when she gets out of line with her optimism ;)


Hey, things out there suck. Why not find the silver lining, if it exists?


Because we're going to law school. It's just not our lot in life. Ours is to be bitter, jaded alcoholics - and to not complain about that fact.

Where's my vodka?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:11 pm

thesealocust wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
thesealocust wrote:
reasonable_man wrote:I can tell that you're going to be a real asset to the forums.


There's always room on this forum for somebody to call out OS when she gets out of line with her optimism ;)


Hey, things out there suck. Why not find the silver lining, if it exists?


Because we're going to law school. It's just not our lot in life. Ours is to be bitter, jaded alcoholics - and to not complain about that fact.

Where's my vodka?


Haha, I drink just as much, but I'm drinking champagne. Where's my kir royale? :D

Screw that, vodka works too.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:56 pm

Transfer from high T3/low T2 to MVP. Wrote on to law review. 16 interviews, 16 rejections. Officially struck out.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Transfer from high T3/low T2 to MVP. Wrote on to law review. 16 interviews, 16 rejections. Officially struck out.


:shock:

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby Helmholtz » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:00 pm

Anonymous User wrote:Transfer from high T3/low T2 to MVP. Wrote on to law review. 16 interviews, 16 rejections. Officially struck out.


Do you think being a transfer had anything to so with that?

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:03 pm

Let's get back on topic. Who else struck out at OCI? I only did a few interviews and didn't get any callbacks. At first I was disappointed, but now I feel strangely liberated and excited to do the things I actually want to do.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:16 am

i would feel the same way about liberation, if I wasn't looking at 150k in debt and a baby on the way.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby Anonymous User » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:30 am

i struck out as a lower t14 transfer. 25 interviews and 22 rejections. i've got a few more interviews from a mailing campaign lined up with smaller firms that only pay about 90K but even those are being swamped with applications.

i'm sure there are many, many qualified people at t14 that struck out this year.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby CE2JD » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:10 pm

I PERSONALLY know 10-15 people at UVA who have thusfar "struck out" at OGI. Even in GREAT years at least 10% of the people participating in OGI don't get offers (this is corroborated by actual stats from UVA showing that 10% of people participating in OGI usually don't get offers).

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:02 pm

CE2JD wrote:I PERSONALLY know 10-15 people at UVA who have thusfar "struck out" at OGI. Even in GREAT years at least 10% of the people participating in OGI don't get offers (this is corroborated by actual stats from UVA showing that 10% of people participating in OGI usually don't get offers).


I mean, even in great years who the heck wants to hire bottom 10% of the class? That would presume that LSAT/GPA is such a great predictor that 100% of the people that got into UVA based on those two numbers should be biglaw material.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby underdawg » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:41 pm

CE2JD wrote:I PERSONALLY know 10-15 people at UVA who have thusfar "struck out" at OGI. Even in GREAT years at least 10% of the people participating in OGI don't get offers (this is corroborated by actual stats from UVA showing that 10% of people participating in OGI usually don't get offers).

but we're talking about callbacks. CALLBACKS. not an offer, not an offer, but CALLBAX

pretty different

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rayiner
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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby rayiner » Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:58 pm

LOL sitting at CSO intro session. I love the maintenance of calm pretense.

CSO dude looks a bit strained lol.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:53 pm

rayiner wrote:LOL sitting at CSO intro session. I love the maintenance of calm pretense.

CSO dude looks a bit strained lol.


They let you do CSO stuff already? We have to wait for November.

I'm hoping I'll be able to handle this with grace... Knowing what I am up against helps.

My question is this, though. Are the people without callbacks always those at the bottom of the class? Are there deal breakers even for those with decent grades, or does GPA usually trump background and/or interviewing ability? I know I won't be part of the callback model, but I'm worried about my resume and what employers will think of my fashion industry experience. I don't think the type of job I want would be prohibitively hard to get (for a median student at my school) in a normal economy, but all bets are off now.

EDITED because I apparently can't spell.
Last edited by OperaSoprano on Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Any other T14-ers strike out at OCI?

Postby ---why--- » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:05 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
rayiner wrote:LOL sitting at CSO intro session. I love the maintenance of calm pretense.

CSO dude looks a bit strained lol.


They let you do CSO stuff already? We have to wait for November.

I'm hoping I'll be able to handle this with grace... Knowing what I am up against helps.

My question is this, though. Are the people without callbacks always those at the bottom of the class? Are there deal breakers even for those with decent grades, or does GPA usually trump background and/or interviewing ability? I know I won't be part of the callback model, but I'm worried about my resume and what employers will think of my fashion industry experience. I don't think the top of job I want would be prohibitively hard to get (for a median student at my school) in a normal economy, but all bets are off now.


Grades mean more than the LSAT does in admissions. I'll let you know how the public interest search goes. I just got rejected from Proskauer and only had one other callback.




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