NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

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rondemarino
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rondemarino » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:00 pm

I'm now definitely willing to settle for a close to full ride at a decent non-T-14 like WUSTL. Not saying I'll get one from them, just that I'd probably accept if so lucky.

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greyarea
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby greyarea » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:01 pm

banquos ghost wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
The second-tier crew are really getting a kick out of it:

--LinkRemoved-- ... he-toilet/


I found that entire blog pathetic.


Why? It does reek of resentment (which you may see as pathetic), but I thought it was pretty hilarious and well written.

banquos ghost
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby banquos ghost » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:06 pm

Why? It does reek of resentment (which you may see as pathetic), but I thought it was pretty hilarious and well written.



The ATL crew seemed to get a kick out of it:

--LinkRemoved--

And Tom the Temp downright loved it:

http://temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/2 ... -hell.html

bigben
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby bigben » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:11 pm

greyarea wrote:
banquos ghost wrote:Anonymous User wrote:
The second-tier crew are really getting a kick out of it:

--LinkRemoved-- ... he-toilet/


I found that entire blog pathetic.


Why? It does reek of resentment (which you may see as pathetic), but I thought it was pretty hilarious and well written.



I agree, hilarious and well-written.

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greyarea
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby greyarea » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:17 pm

I try not to wear my tin foil hat often and I despise unnecessary doom and gloom attitudes. But as a OL, I can definitely appreciate people that are willing to share their negative experiences of the legal field, so that I know I'm not only being spoon fed law school propaganda. I mean seriously. Where else do you see schools post up false statistics and never flinch once? I don't see Dentistry schools luring applicants by putting up inaccurate salary stats.

Not to self: If LS doesn't work out, become a dentist.

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Helmholtz
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:18 pm

greyarea wrote:I try not to wear my tin foil hat often and I despise unnecessary doom and gloom attitudes. But as a OL, I can definitely appreciate people that are willing to share their negative experiences of the legal field, so that I know I'm not only being spoon fed law school propaganda. I mean seriously. Where else do you see schools post up false statistics and never flinch once? I don't see Dentistry schools luring applicants by putting up inaccurate salary stats.

Not to self: If LS doesn't work out, become a dentist.


I think dentists are one of the few professionals who have a higher suicide rate than lawyers.

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greyarea
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby greyarea » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:22 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
greyarea wrote:I try not to wear my tin foil hat often and I despise unnecessary doom and gloom attitudes. But as a OL, I can definitely appreciate people that are willing to share their negative experiences of the legal field, so that I know I'm not only being spoon fed law school propaganda. I mean seriously. Where else do you see schools post up false statistics and never flinch once? I don't see Dentistry schools luring applicants by putting up inaccurate salary stats.

Not to self: If LS doesn't work out, become a dentist.


I think dentists are one of the few professionals who have a higher suicide rate than lawyers.


Good eye, Debbie Downer.

coherentowst
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby coherentowst » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:35 pm

greyarea wrote:I try not to wear my tin foil hat often and I despise unnecessary doom and gloom attitudes. But as a OL, I can definitely appreciate people that are willing to share their negative experiences of the legal field, so that I know I'm not only being spoon fed law school propaganda. I mean seriously. Where else do you see schools post up false statistics and never flinch once? I don't see Dentistry schools luring applicants by putting up inaccurate salary stats.

Not to self: If LS doesn't work out, become a dentist.


Right. It's not about wallowing in pessimism; it's about trying to change a bad system (or at least work around it) rather than getting screwed by it. Having said that, as someone already suggested, you have a serious problem when the dean of Harvard Law School feels compelled to tell his students not to panic about finding a job.

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kurla88
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby kurla88 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:42 pm

Wow... weird thing - the UPenn student they quote was one of the students they had wooing us at ASW. :/

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:43 pm

coherentowst wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:realistically though...how many NYU or Harvard kids are going to get no-offered? Everyone is stressing about OCI, and they just happened to get to them at that exact time. I bet if you talked to Derek Fanciullo right now, he'd have his offer.

Am I being overly optimistic?


Not that this is a novel thing to say, but it seems to me that there has been a massive debt-fueled bubble in legal education and employment that is now bursting with a vengeance. And like the housing bubble, it won't be brought back even if the economy does turn around. Paying full price to go to law school now is like buying a house at the top of the bubble. Going to a top law school is just buying a house in a high-end neighborhood where prices are never supposed to go down and nobody is ever supposed to be foreclosed on. Guess how that worked out for people who bought houses like that.

+1 - Nice, this is what I've been saying and getting clobbered for - and it's not just with regard to law school and housing - the entire economy is a bubble - there can be no recovery anytime soon. This is a collapse. Everything has been unsustainable for years, as jobs went overseas, salaries stagnated, etc., but everything continued thanks to the new availability of credit. In 1970, people bought cars with cash, didn't use credit cards, etc. Now almost every household in our nation is a bubble (50% of mortgages are underwater, personal bankruptcies have set a new record every year since the late 90's, credit debt per household/lack of savings, etc.) It cannot and will not turn around in a year.

Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.

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rondemarino
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rondemarino » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:58 pm

ruleser wrote:Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.


Didn't W&L give you a full ride? I thought you put off law school because your June scores opens up the possibility of attending higher ranked schools.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:05 pm

ruleser wrote:
coherentowst wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:realistically though...how many NYU or Harvard kids are going to get no-offered? Everyone is stressing about OCI, and they just happened to get to them at that exact time. I bet if you talked to Derek Fanciullo right now, he'd have his offer.

Am I being overly optimistic?


Not that this is a novel thing to say, but it seems to me that there has been a massive debt-fueled bubble in legal education and employment that is now bursting with a vengeance. And like the housing bubble, it won't be brought back even if the economy does turn around. Paying full price to go to law school now is like buying a house at the top of the bubble. Going to a top law school is just buying a house in a high-end neighborhood where prices are never supposed to go down and nobody is ever supposed to be foreclosed on. Guess how that worked out for people who bought houses like that.

+1 - Nice, this is what I've been saying and getting clobbered for - and it's not just with regard to law school and housing - the entire economy is a bubble - there can be no recovery anytime soon. This is a collapse. Everything has been unsustainable for years, as jobs went overseas, salaries stagnated, etc., but everything continued thanks to the new availability of credit. In 1970, people bought cars with cash, didn't use credit cards, etc. Now almost every household in our nation is a bubble (50% of mortgages are underwater, personal bankruptcies have set a new record every year since the late 90's, credit debt per household/lack of savings, etc.) It cannot and will not turn around in a year.

Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.




The economy is bad, but that number is waaaay off. It's more like 23% . The 50% was a preditcion made for 2011 by Deutsche bank. Funny thing about economic predictions made two years out......

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:29 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
ruleser wrote:
coherentowst wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:realistically though...how many NYU or Harvard kids are going to get no-offered? Everyone is stressing about OCI, and they just happened to get to them at that exact time. I bet if you talked to Derek Fanciullo right now, he'd have his offer.

Am I being overly optimistic?


Not that this is a novel thing to say, but it seems to me that there has been a massive debt-fueled bubble in legal education and employment that is now bursting with a vengeance. And like the housing bubble, it won't be brought back even if the economy does turn around. Paying full price to go to law school now is like buying a house at the top of the bubble. Going to a top law school is just buying a house in a high-end neighborhood where prices are never supposed to go down and nobody is ever supposed to be foreclosed on. Guess how that worked out for people who bought houses like that.

+1 - Nice, this is what I've been saying and getting clobbered for - and it's not just with regard to law school and housing - the entire economy is a bubble - there can be no recovery anytime soon. This is a collapse. Everything has been unsustainable for years, as jobs went overseas, salaries stagnated, etc., but everything continued thanks to the new availability of credit. In 1970, people bought cars with cash, didn't use credit cards, etc. Now almost every household in our nation is a bubble (50% of mortgages are underwater, personal bankruptcies have set a new record every year since the late 90's, credit debt per household/lack of savings, etc.) It cannot and will not turn around in a year.

Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.




The economy is bad, but that number is waaaay off. It's more like 23% . The 50% was a preditcion made for 2011 by Deutsche bank. Funny thing about economic predictions made two years out......

Thanks for that correction. Nothing worse than making a perhaps valid point but undermining it with an error

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:33 pm

rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.


Didn't W&L give you a full ride? I thought you put off law school because your June scores opens up the possibility of attending higher ranked schools.

All of the above - and am retaking the LSAT again thanks to a waiver. One of the reasons I turned down W&L is I wanted $$ in the bank before I'd do a FT program, a year to see what the economy does, and a chance to get as high a ranked school as possible. I almost did Loyola PT thanks to the economy - literally had registered thanks to the big scholly but pulled out 2 days before - I wanted this year to write for my site, and didn't think ITE Loyola PT was the right move.

Honestly, ITE, decisions are wait-and-see - if I get a top school this year but the economy is even worse, I may be thankful to just have my job (if I still have it)

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rondemarino
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rondemarino » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:37 pm

ruleser wrote:
rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.


Didn't W&L give you a full ride? I thought you put off law school because your June scores opens up the possibility of attending higher ranked schools.

All of the above - and am retaking the LSAT again thanks to a waiver. One of the reasons I turned down W&L is I wanted $$ in the bank before I'd do a FT program, a year to see what the economy does, and a chance to get as high a ranked school as possible. I almost did Loyola PT thanks to the economy - literally had registered thanks to the big scholly but pulled out 2 days before - I wanted this year to write for my site, and didn't think ITE Loyola PT was the right move.

Honestly, ITE, decisions are wait-and-see - if I get a top school this year but the economy is even worse, I may be thankful to just have my job (if I still have it)


Right. So you're looking to buy a house (J.D.) in a high-end market (top ranked school) at the height of the bubble?

EDIT: Hmm.... that sounds more confrontational than I intended.

coherentowst
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby coherentowst » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:45 pm

rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:
rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.


Didn't W&L give you a full ride? I thought you put off law school because your June scores opens up the possibility of attending higher ranked schools.

All of the above - and am retaking the LSAT again thanks to a waiver. One of the reasons I turned down W&L is I wanted $$ in the bank before I'd do a FT program, a year to see what the economy does, and a chance to get as high a ranked school as possible. I almost did Loyola PT thanks to the economy - literally had registered thanks to the big scholly but pulled out 2 days before - I wanted this year to write for my site, and didn't think ITE Loyola PT was the right move.

Honestly, ITE, decisions are wait-and-see - if I get a top school this year but the economy is even worse, I may be thankful to just have my job (if I still have it)


Right. So you're looking to buy a house (J.D.) in a high-end market (top ranked school) at the height of the bubble?

EDIT: Hmm.... that sounds more confrontational than I intended.


Since that was my analogy, I'll offer a point of clarification: i was referring to paying full price for law school (top or not). Getting a scholarship could make law school a good deal, just as getting a house for half price even at the top of the bubble could have worked out well.

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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:48 pm

[quote="coherentowst"]
Right, but ruleser had a full ride to a good school. Instead of taking that offer he's looking for the "chance to get as high a ranked school as possible."

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:48 pm

rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:
rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:Which is why I've put off law school a year to keep working, put $$ in the bank, and keep writing for the website that I've been laying this all out for years - which people keep sending $$ to and subscribing to even if I haven't written in months.


Didn't W&L give you a full ride? I thought you put off law school because your June scores opens up the possibility of attending higher ranked schools.

All of the above - and am retaking the LSAT again thanks to a waiver. One of the reasons I turned down W&L is I wanted $$ in the bank before I'd do a FT program, a year to see what the economy does, and a chance to get as high a ranked school as possible. I almost did Loyola PT thanks to the economy - literally had registered thanks to the big scholly but pulled out 2 days before - I wanted this year to write for my site, and didn't think ITE Loyola PT was the right move.

Honestly, ITE, decisions are wait-and-see - if I get a top school this year but the economy is even worse, I may be thankful to just have my job (if I still have it)


Right. So you're looking to buy a house (J.D.) in a high-end market (top ranked school) at the height of the bubble?

EDIT: Hmm.... that sounds more confrontational than I intended.

:D No worries. I have been planning on doing law school for years - I am delaying because of econ reality, and will some more if necessary - I won't go sticker anywhere - I am retaking the LSAT to see if I can't get a higher ranked school with some $$$.

My whole point in going to law school, if you can imagine, was to get more of an ability to help head off/deal with this financial collapse - I've been screaming about it for a decade - wrote a novel, put up a play, started a website, been on the radio - law school was a step toward public office to deal with it.

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:51 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
coherentowst wrote:Right, but ruleser had a full ride to a good school. Instead of taking that offer he's looking for the "chance to get as high a ranked school as possible."

Yes - my goal is to get into a school where my screaming about this economy, etc. can have an effect. I almost bit on GMU since they are an econ center, but at near sticker couldn't do that. W&L wouldn't help with that.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:54 pm

ruleser wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
coherentowst wrote:Right, but ruleser had a full ride to a good school. Instead of taking that offer he's looking for the "chance to get as high a ranked school as possible."

Yes - my goal is to get into a school where my screaming about this economy, etc. can have an effect. I almost bit on GMU since they are an econ center, but at near sticker couldn't do that. W&L wouldn't help with that.



I think you may be misguided.

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:54 pm

...
Last edited by ruleser on Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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rondemarino
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rondemarino » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:54 pm

ruleser wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
coherentowst wrote:Right, but ruleser had a full ride to a good school. Instead of taking that offer he's looking for the "chance to get as high a ranked school as possible."

Yes - my goal is to get into a school where my screaming about this economy, etc. can have an effect. I almost bit on GMU since they are an econ center, but at near sticker couldn't do that. W&L wouldn't help with that.


:?: What schools would this be?

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ruleser
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby ruleser » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:55 pm

rondemarino wrote:
ruleser wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
coherentowst wrote:Right, but ruleser had a full ride to a good school. Instead of taking that offer he's looking for the "chance to get as high a ranked school as possible."

Yes - my goal is to get into a school where my screaming about this economy, etc. can have an effect. I almost bit on GMU since they are an econ center, but at near sticker couldn't do that. W&L wouldn't help with that.


:?: What schools would this be?

Chicago, Yale, Harvard (any would be via transfer from a high enough ranked school obviously)

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D. H2Oman
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby D. H2Oman » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:56 pm

why not a PHD in econ?

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Helmholtz
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:57 pm

ruleser wrote:Chicago, Yale, Harvard (any would be via transfer from a high enough ranked school obviously)


You should have just gone to W&M for free during 1L, be #1 in your class, and transfer to Yale.




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