NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

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Erie Doctrine
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Erie Doctrine » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:14 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
elliefont wrote:seems one can read this two ways:

1) I should go to a school that gives me the most money/free ride since I'll probably have a shit job when all is said and done.

2) "New York University, Georgetown, Northwestern and other top universities confirm that interviews are down by a third to a half compared with a year ago, while lower-ranked schools are suffering more." so I should go to the top school possible since other schools are in even worse shape.

I'm guessing I know where most TLSers fall, but is this changing anyone's minds?


It definitely gave me a little pause over my willingness to potentially pay full-ticket to a T6. But just a little.


The degree is for life. Hopefully, the recession isn't.


The problem is that it's difficult, if not impossible, to lateral into biglaw.

Not saying that there aren't other, even lucrative, alternatives. But biglaw usually hires right off campus, from everything I understand, and develops its own talent.

Alexandria
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Alexandria » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:14 am

OperaSoprano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
elliefont wrote:seems one can read this two ways:

1) I should go to a school that gives me the most money/free ride since I'll probably have a shit job when all is said and done.

2) "New York University, Georgetown, Northwestern and other top universities confirm that interviews are down by a third to a half compared with a year ago, while lower-ranked schools are suffering more." so I should go to the top school possible since other schools are in even worse shape.

I'm guessing I know where most TLSers fall, but is this changing anyone's minds?


It definitely gave me a little pause over my willingness to potentially pay full-ticket to a T6. But just a little.


The degree is for life. Hopefully, the recession isn't. I'm not saying I don't understand, though. I was horrified when a good friend at an excellent school (not CLS, though) got no-offered. It's almost like cancer; it seems so abstract, until it happens to someone you care about. I just didn't know what to say, and I did a poor job of concealing my shock.


Yeah, it's hitting really close to home right now. I have one good friend who has been no-offered that I know of, and a lot of my friends simply haven't heard yet. Frankly, I would not advise anyone to pay full ticket to any law school right now. Maybe Yale? Maybe Stanford? Not even Harvard... the class size is just too big... I am not sure how things will shake out for the bottom of it. I would still go to law school, but I'd be looking seriously at any schools offering me sizable scholarships.

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Helmholtz
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Helmholtz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:14 am

gahthelaw wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
coherentowst wrote:
gahthelaw wrote:realistically though...how many NYU or Harvard kids are going to get no-offered? Everyone is stressing about OCI, and they just happened to get to them at that exact time. I bet if you talked to Derek Fanciullo right now, he'd have his offer.

Am I being overly optimistic?


Not that this is a novel thing to say, but it seems to me that there has been a massive debt-fueled bubble in legal education and employment that is now bursting with a vengeance. And like the housing bubble, it won't be brought back even if the economy does turn around. Paying full price to go to law school now is like buying a house at the top of the bubble. Going to a top law school is just buying a house in a high-end neighborhood where prices are never supposed to go down and nobody is ever supposed to be foreclosed on. Guess how that worked out for people who bought houses like that.



it depends. if you go to a top 10 school and do very well, life is still good. it's really feast or famine right now.


oof. i feel like this is just inciting everyone to strap on their gunner boots and make law school an even harder three years than it traditionally is.


NYU is the new Cardozo!

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:21 am

awesomepossum wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote: I did a poor job of concealing my shock.



what a shocker. I would never have predicted that. :P


You'd be shocked too, if you knew who it was. The whole situation was awful, from beginning to end.

awesomepossum
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby awesomepossum » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:08 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote: I did a poor job of concealing my shock.



what a shocker. I would never have predicted that. :P


You'd be shocked too, if you knew who it was. The whole situation was awful, from beginning to end.



I was talking about your shocked reaction.

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teaadntoast
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:11 pm

Erie Doctrine wrote: The problem is that it's difficult, if not impossible, to lateral into biglaw.

Not saying that there aren't other, even lucrative, alternatives. But biglaw usually hires right off campus, from everything I understand, and develops its own talent.


I don't think this is true, unless you mean lateraling from midlaw or boutique law into Biglaw.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:12 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote: I did a poor job of concealing my shock.



what a shocker. I would never have predicted that. :P


You'd be shocked too, if you knew who it was. The whole situation was awful, from beginning to end.



I was talking about your shocked reaction.


LOL, but in this case, it was entirely justified. If this person can't get the job he wants, the rest of us should give up now.

awesomepossum
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby awesomepossum » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:13 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
LOL, but in this case, it was entirely justified. If this person can't get the job he wants, the rest of us should give up now.



it's doable. despite the bad news, I think there are a surprising number of people who are doing perfectly fine.


you don't know the factors that might have gone into the decisions.

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kurama20
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby kurama20 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:17 pm

Alexandria wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
elliefont wrote:seems one can read this two ways:

1) I should go to a school that gives me the most money/free ride since I'll probably have a shit job when all is said and done.

2) "New York University, Georgetown, Northwestern and other top universities confirm that interviews are down by a third to a half compared with a year ago, while lower-ranked schools are suffering more." so I should go to the top school possible since other schools are in even worse shape.

I'm guessing I know where most TLSers fall, but is this changing anyone's minds?


It definitely gave me a little pause over my willingness to potentially pay full-ticket to a T6. But just a little.


The degree is for life. Hopefully, the recession isn't. I'm not saying I don't understand, though. I was horrified when a good friend at an excellent school (not CLS, though) got no-offered. It's almost like cancer; it seems so abstract, until it happens to someone you care about. I just didn't know what to say, and I did a poor job of concealing my shock.


Yeah, it's hitting really close to home right now. I have one good friend who has been no-offered that I know of, and a lot of my friends simply haven't heard yet. Frankly, I would not advise anyone to pay full ticket to any law school right now. Maybe Yale? Maybe Stanford? Not even Harvard... the class size is just too big... I am not sure how things will shake out for the bottom of it. I would still go to law school, but I'd be looking seriously at any schools offering me sizable scholarships.


Unabashed Stanford trolling. If you are screwed at Harvard you are screwed at Stanford.

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teaadntoast
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:20 pm

OperaSoprano wrote: LOL, but in this case, it was entirely justified. If this person can't get the job he wants, the rest of us should give up now.


Key word, there.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby OperaSoprano » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:24 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote: LOL, but in this case, it was entirely justified. If this person can't get the job he wants, the rest of us should give up now.


Key word, there.


Well, yes. He'll get something good, even ITE, but it won't be biglaw.

AP: I know. That doesn't make it suck any less, though.

Alexandria
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Alexandria » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:25 pm

kurama20 wrote:
Unabashed Stanford trolling. If you are screwed at Harvard you are screwed at Stanford.


I'm a 3L at Michigan. I don't give a shit about Stanford.

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kurama20
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby kurama20 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:27 pm

Alexandria wrote:
kurama20 wrote:
Unabashed Stanford trolling. If you are screwed at Harvard you are screwed at Stanford.


I'm a 3L at Michigan. I don't give a shit about Stanford.


It's still trolling

TLS rankings

1. Yale
1. Stanford
3. Harvard
3. Columbia
3. NYU
6. Boalt
7. Michigan
8. UVA
9. Penn
9. Cornell
9. Chicago

Alexandria
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Alexandria » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:32 pm

Yes, because hiring partners consult TLS rankings in making hiring decisions?

I think there's something to be said for class size in a situation like this. Not to mention the fact that Stanford is focused on slightly different markets. Anyway, I said *maybe* Yale and Stanford. No one knows how this will shake out. I just think Yale and Stanford are possibly safer bets for the $180,000 investment.

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rayiner
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:35 pm

teaadntoast wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote: LOL, but in this case, it was entirely justified. If this person can't get the job he wants, the rest of us should give up now.


Key word, there.


Maybe. "Commensurate with the real and opportunity costs of law school" is better.

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jcl2
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby jcl2 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:41 pm

Erie Doctrine wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
elliefont wrote:seems one can read this two ways:

1) I should go to a school that gives me the most money/free ride since I'll probably have a shit job when all is said and done.

2) "New York University, Georgetown, Northwestern and other top universities confirm that interviews are down by a third to a half compared with a year ago, while lower-ranked schools are suffering more." so I should go to the top school possible since other schools are in even worse shape.

I'm guessing I know where most TLSers fall, but is this changing anyone's minds?


It definitely gave me a little pause over my willingness to potentially pay full-ticket to a T6. But just a little.


The degree is for life. Hopefully, the recession isn't.


The problem is that it's difficult, if not impossible, to lateral into biglaw.

Not saying that there aren't other, even lucrative, alternatives. But biglaw usually hires right off campus, from everything I understand, and develops its own talent.


I actually think many biglaw firms do like to hire former state and especially federal government lawyers. I think the smalllaw or midlaw to biglaw lateral is probably pretty tough.

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teaadntoast
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby teaadntoast » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:42 pm

rayiner wrote:
teaadntoast wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote: LOL, but in this case, it was entirely justified. If this person can't get the job he wants, the rest of us should give up now.


Key word, there.


Maybe. "Commensurate with the real and opportunity costs of law school" is better.


Agreed.

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kurama20
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby kurama20 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:48 pm

Alexandria wrote:Yes, because hiring partners consult TLS rankings in making hiring decisions?

I think there's something to be said for class size in a situation like this. Not to mention the fact that Stanford is focused on slightly different markets. Anyway, I said *maybe* Yale and Stanford. No one knows how this will shake out. I just think Yale and Stanford are possibly safer bets for the $180,000 investment.


I didn't say hiring partners consult those rankings, that was my point, those rankings are what people on TLS think not those who will actually be hiring people. And in response to the bolded....still Stanford trolling.

Alexandria
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Alexandria » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:55 pm

You're being ridiculous. People can express opinions without trolling for a school.

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rayiner
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:59 pm

ITT someone calls Harvard a TTT JD factory.

banquos ghost
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby banquos ghost » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:04 pm

The second-tier crew are really getting a kick out of it:

--LinkRemoved--

brooklynpatriot1
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby brooklynpatriot1 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:26 pm

What I don't understand is people are saying how bad the job market is but employment statistics still look pretty good. I mean take BC. 99% employed within 9 months and a median salary of 120,000.

What am I missing, are those just old statistics?

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rayiner
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby rayiner » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:30 pm

brooklynpatriot1 wrote:What I don't understand is people are saying how bad the job market is but employment statistics still look pretty good. I mean take BC. 99% employed within 9 months and a median salary of 120,000.

What am I missing, are those just old statistics?


Old stats that were made up even then.


Pearalegal
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Re: NYTimes: Downturn dims prospects even at top law schools

Postby Pearalegal » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:53 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The second-tier crew are really getting a kick out of it:

--LinkRemoved--


I found that entire blog pathetic.




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